Reasoning behind Catholics living in invalid marriage?

[Emeraldlady]

My point is that talking about it on an internet forum is not evangelizing.

Especially when someone who as ‘a zeal for saving souls’ doesn’t have a rounded, prudent grasp of the Church’s meaning. Personally I blame the dissident voices in the Church who’ve made a public “filial correction” by informing the Pope of his heresy regarding Amoris Laetitia or made a public song and dance about ‘how confusing’ it is. All that seems to have done is incited people to be more judgemental and snoopy about fellow Catholics situations. It’s a real shame.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Walking into the Catholic Church can be a very slow and cautious one. It can take a very long time to fully embrace and understand the teachings of the Church and of God.

Mercy and compassion are required, not this is the way it has to be or else. I find the second approach drives people away when they are tentatively exploring.
It is better to walk with people on their journey, be there to answer questions and clarify points. Give them simple booklets that explain things without wading through pages of hard to read text.

We open the door a crack to God, or even have the desire for it to be opened, and allow the Holy Spirit to do the rest.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I have had a vasectomy for reasons that have nothing to do truly wanting it done, but that is as far as I want to discuss it.

When I spoke to my priest afterwards, he told me that as long as it was something I am truly sorry for and wouldn’t have chosen it unless under duress, that I am absolved of my sin and am under no obligation to get a reversal or abstain. That when I am married again, I can resume sexual relations normally.

Just wanted to add an actual experience to this.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

So you are saying that, even if a person has — through no fault of their own — never been presented with the information regarding something being a sin, as long as he has sufficient intellect to know and comprehend the Church’s teaching, he is completely culpable?

If a person fails to use the intellect God gave them or fails to even search for answers from others when those answers are available to them, how is that not their fault? Adultery is a sin against the natural law as well as divine decree. Unless you are a simpleton you can reason that out without the Church telling you, and there are precious few who who have never heard and even fewer without access to this knowledge anyway.

Divorce causes a great deal of pain for everyone involved, most of all the innocent children. But all that seems to matter is following the rules.

In this case the rule is live as brother and sister or separate. They may not continue the conjugal act. Continence is hardly impossible, but if they will not prevent themselves from adulterous relations it is better to separate than to burn.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

My point is that talking about it on an internet forum is not evangelizing. Has the OP counseled those in these situations, walked with them on their journey? Is he a catechist? Going round and round about the lives of strangers is not really getting to the hard work of the matter for someone who seems so passionate about correcting the sins of others regarding a particular matter. This happens time and again with people taking up for a moral issue but not really DOING anything about it except reciting the rules of the matter. It just reads as judgment and virtue signaling.

This is the last time I am going to say it: I am not judging anyone. To point out “this particular behavior is taught by the Church to be an objectively mortal sin, and if a person commits this sin fully knowing it is a mortal sin, and fully free in their will to commit it, they put themselves in danger of eternal punishment” is not judging. I am not the first person in the Church or the world to point this out, and I won’t be the last. I hope Almighty God does have mercy, does cut people some slack, does “just let it go” when people are living in these situations but, for whatever reason, can’t quite pull it all together spiritually, or can’t quite understand why they should accept and obey the Church’s teachings.

 

[Psalm30]

If a person fails to use the intellect God gave them or fails to even search for answers from others when those answers are available to them, how is that not their fault? Adultery is a sin against the natural law as well as divine decree. Unless you are a simpleton you can reason that out without the Church telling you, and there are precious few who who have never heard and even fewer without access to this knowledge anyway.

I’m very sorry you cannot see past this, that you cannot comprehend or acknowledge that not everyone knows everything and some people might really not know — through no fault of their own — what the correct interpretation of the Bible is/what the Church teaches, and that this diminishes their culpability.

I appreciate you talking with me and sharing your thoughts, but I no longer wish to continue this discussion with you, as it is causing me a great deal of frustration.

I do hope and pray that God is merciful, and that He will not send people, who are sincerely doing the best they can with what they know, to hell based on something they were honestly never taught, or taught incorrectly.

You take care and God bless.

 

[Psalm30]

This is Catholic moral doctrine?
Is that through Christ?
I thought God is a merciful and loving Father?

It’s World Mental Health Day and I have Catholic friends who died at their own hand. My ever, loving good-God, I’m going to be sick!

I’m very sorry for the loss of your friends. May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.

 

[Emeraldlady]

o point out “this particular behavior is taught by the Church to be an objectively mortal sin, and if a person commits this sin fully knowing it is a mortal sin, and fully free in their will to commit it, they put themselves in danger of eternal punishment” is not judging.

I tried to understand where your dogmatic conviction comes from, earlier in the thread but in your long response, I couldn’t find an answer. I’ll ask another way. Since your baptism, have you fully, unreservedly understood? Or did you come to conversion gradually?

 

[QwertyGirl]

Can we discuss for a minute how I am baffled anyone feels they know what goes on, sexually, within the relationship of a couple? How about everyone who is so concerned with this issue just assumes all these sinners are living as brother and sister? Because the alternative is that you either asked them about their sex life, or they told you. Ick. Even if a pregnancy occurs, you shouldn’t make assumptions. You never know for sure who the players are or what the method was.

I am really disgusted, for lack of a better word, that apparantly it is considered OK to insert oneself into the most intimate type of relationship between a man and a woman. What the heck?

The reality is that nobody knows what goes on. Unless you are there when it happens, you don’t have a clue. And if you are there when “it” happens, you have other troubles we won’t go into here.
Even if someone tells you what goes on, you don’t have first hand knowledge of anything.

Truthfully, the obsession with others’ sex lives, or lackthereof, is not normal. I would suggest some counseling.

 

[Trishie]

The Sanation doesn’t necessitate going behind your spouse’s back.
Perhaps explain that it is important to you if not to her, and you wish to go ahead for your own peace of soul. A good Christian would want to respect the conscience of their partner. It is an unequal situation if her conscience is secure but yours suffers, or niggles in the background.

I have know instances where the non- catholic spouse said, okay have your protest set about arranging the sanation, taking a non- involved stance themselves but giving that degree or permission that gives respect to their partner’s conscience as a basis human, basic Christian respect, but becoming in no other way involved.

A sanation has the extraordinary gift of making the marriage valid from the beginning … my authority, good priests.
Our wise and patient priest can correct me if I’m wrong in any aspect.

A respectful calm husband wife chat between two people who love each other and respect each other would arrive at a fair agreement
“Okay, I don’t want it, it means nothing to me, I have what I need for my conscience…but you do need this Sanation for your conscience, so okay.”
No need to conceal an intention to seek to obtain a valid marriage outcome for a Catholic. The other person doesn’t lose, but one gains peace of soul and mind.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

That is not the way it worked for us. She didn’t want it and didn’t want me to get it either. It would have bothered her had I done it and I wasn’t about to let that happen. She in her mind would have lost something. I made my peace with it.

It would have been going behind her back to do it and the priest I some to at the time agreed with me.

We’re divorced now anyway.

Talked with my girlfriend about it and she did say she if didn’t want it and didn’t want me to go do it she would also feel like I had gone behind her back and betrayed her. So, this is a second woman to say this. She did also say though that if it was something important to me that as you did would give me piece of mind and she gave me the go ahead, she wouldn’t feel betrayed. That there is the difference. My ex - wife would never give me the go ahead and my girlfriend if it arises, would probably give me the go ahead.

 

[Trishie]

All the very best in your new relationship.
May God bless you and the lady you’re dating.
I do remember some of your older posts and know things haven’t always been easy for you.
As you indicate, relationships and situations can be complicated.

Kind wishes and prayers for a blessed and happy future

 

[babochka]

“this particular behavior is taught by the Church to be an objectively mortal sin

Do you mean objectively grave matter?

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Thank you for the kind words!

It still hasn’t been easy, but this relationship has been the easiest part of my life for a long time now! Other things, not so much. So it’s nice to have some part if my life be easy!

 

[Trishie]

I’m delighted to hear that!
There were times my heart ached for you, back in the old CAF forum,
When the CAFers finally meet in heaven, there will be a lot of surprises, friends we didn’t know we had., people we were real to, when we just felt isolated or bleak. :hugs:

 

[lonegreywolf20]

When the CAFers finally meet in heaven, there will be a lot of surprises, friends we didn’t know we had., people we were real to, when we just felt isolated or bleak.

I agree! Gonna try to get some sleep now. My girlfriend had to take me to the ER around 6 am this morning because I had a Gerd issue that triggered an asthma attack. Went there because my inhalers weren’t working and I was worried I had aspirated too much stomach fluid.

There was very little stomach fluid, but I have an upper respiratory infection along with an asthma exacerbation. Still not out of the woods on getting aspiration pneumonia. They sent me home with antibiotics and steroids.

My girlfriend is sleeping on the couch because she didn’t want to leave me alone. She hasn’t left my side all day. We were both supposed to work, her normal 8 hour shift and my normal 24, but that didn’t happen.

 

[Trishie]

Your girlfriend is a treasure, to be so caring and devoted.
You must be very uncomfortable with those combined I’ll-health attacks. The good thing there, is seeing how much she values you.
I’ll be praying for your recovery and better health … and much happiness for you both.

 

[Psalm30]

Do you mean objectively grave matter?

This is the point many people miss, and it’s important. I don’t think that most people on this thread are trying to debate that living in an invalid marriage is objectively grave matter. It is.

But mortal sin requires two additional conditions to be met.

So, while you can say living in an invalid marriage is objectively grave matter, you can’t say it’s a mortal sin unless you know 100% for certain what goes on in the heart, soul, and intellect of the specific people involved. For some it might be, for others it might not. But the bottom line is you don’t know.

Words matter. I think if the OP @HomeschoolDad were throwing around the term “objectively grave matter” rather than “objective mortal sin,” this thread would have gone slightly differently (only slightly, though, as I’m still not quite sure how it’s helping him achieve his goal).

Whether one realizes it or not or intends it or not, telling people they are in objective mortal sin is judging them. Some would argue that even a person himself doesn’t know for sure if he is in a state of grace or not. When St. Joan of Arc was being interrogated at her trial, they asked her if she was in a state of grace. They did this because she would condemn herself either way. If she said no, she would admit to being out of God’s friendship. If she said yes, she would be presuming to know what God knows, which would be presumptuous. But she gave the “correct“ answer, saying “If I am not in a state of grace, may God put me there. If I am in a state of grace, may God so keep me.”

 

[catholiclala]

So what are you doing about it besides musing about it and needing to point out sin? This isn’t about if a sin is a sin, it’s about your “zeal” concerning it.

 

[pnewton]

No, we should not be judgmental. I think that is a given. I think what is not so obvious is when we judge those who look judgmental. As an example, it is no easy thing to be the abandoned spouse, the abused spouse, the one who was cheated on, the one who was divorced without cause, etc., and the one who tries to uphold the moral teaching of one’s faith through all of this. It is so easy to fall into a pattern of condemnation of others for their actions out of sheer emotional turmoil. Time is often the only cure.

One struggling with these issues should seek help locally from one’s own circle of Christian friends and family.