Reasons for differences between the Quran & the Old Testament

[Joseph_Alison]

inJESUS:

"We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth” (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural…

In which OT version have you found in Gen 4:10 the word blood in the plural?

NIV:
GEN 4:10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

Kig James:
GEN 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

ASV1901
GEN 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Douay-Rheims
GEN 4:10 And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth

English-Hebrew Torah:
10 And He said: 'What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto Me from the ground. Source

The Arabic Bible:
4:10 فَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لَهُ: «مَاذَا فَعَلْتَ؟ إِنَّ صَوْتَ دَمِ أَخِيكَ يَصْرُخُ إِلَيَّ مِنَ الأَرْضِ.
In Arabic, blood mean “da’m” its plural is “Deema’a”

The Message:
GEN 4:10 God said, "What have you done! The voice of your brother’s blood is calling to me from the ground.

If you want to check more Bible versions go here
I found nowhere the word in the plural!

Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 4:10, an ingenious Rabbi invented the supposition that all Abel’s offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications.

This is pure specutation AND corruption since the word blood in Gen 4:10 is NOT in the plural!

Clearly Muhammad had no knowledge of the source of the theory set out in the Mishnah but, in hearing it related, simply set out the Rabbi’s suppositions as the eternal decree of God!

Which version of the OT your Rabbi and the guy who wrote Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5 were reading? Every OT version I checked shows the word blood in GEN 4:10 in singular, even the direct Hebrew-English translation which is HERE

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Valke2]

I
This is pure specutation AND corruption since the word blood in Gen 4:10 is NOT in the plural!

Your english translations of “damim”, which is the hebrew word used, are incorrect (mostly because, I believe it would not make sense to use the plural in the translation). The Hebrew word “damim” is plural. With rare exceptions its usage appears in the context of bloodshed or bloodguilt. This is why the Targums take the plural to include, apart from the blood of the victim, also that of the potential offspring now doomed never to be born.

 

[inJESUS]

Your english translations of “damim”, which is the hebrew word used, are incorrect (mostly because, I believe it would not make sense to use the plural in the translation). The Hebrew word “damim” is plural. With rare exceptions its usage appears in the context of bloodshed or bloodguilt. This is why the Targums take the plural to include, apart from the blood of the victim, also that of the potential offspring now doomed never to be born.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Your english translations of “damim”, which is the hebrew word used, are incorrect (mostly because, I believe it would not make sense to use the plural in the translation). The Hebrew word “damim” is plural. With rare exceptions its usage appears in the context of bloodshed or bloodguilt. This is why the Targums take the plural to include, apart from the blood of the victim, also that of the potential offspring now doomed never to be born.

And you believe that God “heard” the voice of the “damim” but did not know where was the one whose damim were shed!!

[GEN 4:9] And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother’s keeper?
[GEN 4:10] And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth.
[GEN 4:11] Now, therefore, cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand,

Question: what if the “voice” of Abel’s blood (damim) did not reach God? Would He start worrying about his hereabouts? The guy who wrote the above verses had a human conception of God which does not fit His Majesty.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Valke2]

And you believe that God “heard” the voice of the “damim” but did not know where was the one whose damim were shed!!

Question: what if the “voice” of Abel’s blood (damim) did not reach God? Would He start worrying about his hereabouts? The guy who wrote the above verses had a human conception of God which does not fit His Majesty.
Joseph.

What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Do you think God really couldn’t find Adam and Eve when they were hiding? You think if Cain did not admit his act, God would be oblivious to it?

 

[inJESUS]

And you believe that God “heard” the voice of the “damim” but did not know where was the one whose damim were shed!!

[GEN 4:9] And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother’s keeper?
[GEN 4:10] And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth.
[GEN 4:11] Now, therefore, cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand,

Question: what if the “voice” of Abel’s blood (damim) did not reach God? Would He start worrying about his hereabouts? The guy who wrote the above verses had a human conception of God which does not fit His Majesty.

Salaam.
Joseph.

this is a digression .

God does ask questions/rhetorical questions to prove a point. Allah did as well.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;

Valke2:

What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Do you think God really couldn’t find Adam and Eve when they were hiding? You think if Cain did not admit his act, God would be oblivious to it?

It has a lot to do with what we were discussing: How could the writer of Genesis knew that God talked about blood in the plural, while in the same he portrayed the same God as not even knowing what was happening, if it wasn’t the “voice” of Abel’s blood which came to Him?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam inJESUS;

this is a digression .
God does ask questions/rhetorical questions to prove a point. Allah did as well.

Yes I understand. But in GEN 4:9, Cain is clearly denying any wrongdoing, so God in GEN 4:10 is **calling ** Abel blood’s “voice” into witness to convict him, something Cain does not understand.
The blood here is used as a witness for convicting a murderer; in this case the use of the word blood in plural or singular does not make a difference, so why would God use the plural where clearly it does not need to?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Valke2]

Salaam;

It has a lot to do with what we were discussing: How could the writer of Genesis knew that God talked about blood in the plural, while in the same he portrayed the same God as not even knowing what was happening, if it wasn’t the “voice” of Abel’s blood which came to Him?

Salaam.
Joseph.

Are you one of those fundamentalist atheists I’ve heard so much about? let’s take things one at a time. Initially, you said that the word in genesis was blood in the singular. I believe we can agree you were mistaken. Now your issue is with God’s apparent ignorance on the events that lead up to Abel’s death. To be clear, I don’t believe God was ignorant and I don’t believe the story is written in a way to imply that God really didn’t know what happened. Just as God knew where Adam was hiding when He called out “Where are you”, He knew what Cain had done when he asked him where Abel was.

If you’re trying to make a statement regarding the falibility of the Torah or the CHristian bible, maybe it should be on its own thread.

 

[Valke2]

Salaam inJESUS;

Yes I understand. But in GEN 4:9, Cain is clearly denying any wrongdoing, so God in GEN 4:10 is **calling ** Abel blood’s “voice” into witness to convict him, something Cain does not understand.
The blood here is used as a witness for convicting a murderer; in this case the use of the word blood in plural or singular does not make a difference, so why would God use the plural where clearly it does not need to?

Salaam.
Joseph.

Well, we’ve already given one explanation for why that word was used. To show that with the murder of an indivudal, comes the murder of all his descendants. Which is why I posted that the Mishna on this was read to witnesses in a capital case.

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam inJESUS;

Yes I understand. But in GEN 4:9, Cain is clearly denying any wrongdoing, so God in GEN 4:10 is **calling ** Abel blood’s “voice” into witness to convict him, something Cain does not understand.
The blood here is used as a witness for convicting a murderer; in this case the use of the word blood in plural or singular does not make a difference, so why would God use the plural where clearly it does not need to?

Salaam.
Joseph.

:whacky: God knew Cain killed his brother.

 

[inJESUS]

Joseph, God is All-knowing according to Jews and Christians instead of questioning God, we better focus on the real issue here, which is that Muhammad took the words of a rabbi and put them as direct word of God

 

[Angelos]

And you believe that God “heard” the voice of the “damim” but did not know where was the one whose damim were shed!!

Question: what if the “voice” of Abel’s blood (damim) did not reach God? Would He start worrying about his hereabouts? The guy who wrote the above verses had a human conception of God which does not fit His Majesty.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Hi Joseph

I wonder if you will ever learn not to digress while writing on a specific topic for any thread.

Here is my question:

Why did the all-knowing Allah ask the Iblis why he had not prostrated himself before Adam?:

Saad 38:75] Said Allah, “O Iblis! What prevented you from prostrating before one whom I have created with My hands? Have you become proud or were you haughty from the beginning?” (Actually there are two questions here! )

In your own words: “The guy who wrote the above verses had a human conception of God which does not fit His Majesty”

AMEN

Salaam habibullah

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;

Angelos:

Hi Joseph Why did the all-knowing Allah ask the Iblis why he had not prostrated himself before Adam?:

Saad 38:75] Said Allah, “O Iblis! What prevented you from prostrating before one whom I have created with My hands? Have you become proud or were you haughty from the beginning?” (Actually there are two questions here! )

Because the Judge should hear from the guilty before condemning him and Ibliss was condemned accordingly before the congregation of the Angels attending the event. Why do you think there is a Judgment Day? Cannot God just send everyone without Judgment Day to hell or paradise according to His knowledge of what everyone did during his lifetime?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Valke2]

Salaam inJESUS;

Yes I understand. But in GEN 4:9, Cain is clearly denying any wrongdoing, so God in GEN 4:10 is **calling ** Abel blood’s “voice” into witness to convict him, something Cain does not understand.
The blood here is used as a witness for convicting a murderer; in this case the use of the word blood in plural or singular does not make a difference, so why would God use the plural where clearly it does not need to?

Salaam.
Joseph.

Interesting interpertation. Not sure I agree with it, but I can give you an answer. It takes two witnesses to condem a murderer. So perhaps this is why the plural is used.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;

Valke2:

It takes two witnesses to condem a murderer. So perhaps this is why the plural is used.

May be, but please bring two witnesses who can speak plainly so Cain could understand.

Salaam.
J.A

 

[Valke2]

Salaam;

May be, but please bring two witnesses who can speak plainly so Cain could understand.

Salaam.
J.A

What is there to suggest that Cain did not understand what God was talking about? The story is very simple. The only thing Cain may have not understood was the finality of his actions, as no one had ever died before. This is why we believe God went easy on him.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;

What is there to suggest that Cain did not understand what God was talking about?

The “voice” of his brother’s blood.

The only thing Cain may have not understood was the finality of his actions, as no one had ever died before. This is why we believe God went easy on him.

God went easy on him? This is not what Cain felt: [GEN 4:13] “And Cain said unto Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear”.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

i still don’t understand what Joseph is doing …questioning God’s knowledge instead of answering why on earth Muhammad quoted a rabbi’s words and said they were God’s :whacky:

 

[inJESUS]

Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out in the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
9
Then the LORD asked Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” He answered, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
10
The LORD then said: "What have you done! Listen: your brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil!
11
Therefore you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.

well i can see Cain lied and God showed him that he can hide nothing from God. The word damim in Hebrew is plural…that’s why the rabbi gave his own interpretation that Muhammad quoted as God’s word! deal with it