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TrueLight
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Awesome post!
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guanophore
Guest
How was Peter to feed and care for the flock without any jurisdiciton?
Do you think the flock was limited to the city in which Peter was residing?
If Peter’s jurisdiction was “entirely alien”, how come there are so many references to it?
With respect, Rawb, the majority of practicing and believing Catholics, like you, do not understand the gift of infallibility.
The references you made seem to indicate otherwise. But, I agree, you were not discussing infalliblity. You were just making comments that appeared to be erroneous.
What do you mean by this? What is “first among equals”?
The context indicates that you are referring to support and assistance to other bishops. It sounds as if you believe the Catholic Church claims that the successor of Peter is always infallible in this task, which we don’t. If that is not what you mean, then why are you refuting something you made up yourself?
If you are going to object to Catholic teaching why not object to what is taught rather than a strawman?
On what basis do you make the claim that God did not work infallibly through Peter when he provided them with his experiences at the council of Jerusalem?
On what basis did the successor of Peter not act infallibly when proclaiming the canon closed?
Of what benefit, then, was it to charge Peter with this responsibility, if anyone else could do it just as well? Why command him to strengthen them if He was not going to work through Peter by grace, using him to build up the Church?
The problem of this reasoning, Rawb, is that the successor of Peter has the responsibility to guard the doctrine of the faith. He does not have the liberty to cater to anyones “wishes”, whether they are a majority of bishops, or not.
Can you explain what you mean by the use of the term “infallible” in this sentence? Perhaps I am just misunderstanding how you are using the word.
While you are doing so, can you tell me if Peter acted infallibly when he made his statement of faith in Matt.16?
Can you tell me if he acted infallibly in baptizing the house of Cornelius?
In confronting Ananias and Sapphira about their lie?
This will help me understand how you are using the term.
This was the part that really left me with the sense that you did not understand the gift. Infalliblity is a gift of GRACE!!! It is the promise of Christ that he will not abandon the Chruch, leave her orphaned, allow the gates of hell to prevail, and will send the HS to lead into ALL TRUTH. These things cannot be done on human ability. They require the infallibility of the divine.
I am not sure what this means either, since you have somehow separated God’s gift from God’s grace, you lost me.
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Rawb
Guest
They need rectifying:
Catholic doctrine maintains that the Church, via the Pope or Magesterium and the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit, teaches infallibly when it teaches a doctrine of faith or morals only?
Eastern Orthodox doctrine maintains that the Church, via the communion of all the bishops of the world in council, then the approval of the laity, all by the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit, teaches infallibly when it teaches a doctrine of faith or morals only?
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Rawb
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guanophore, you seem capable of only believing someone could ever possibly leave the Roman Church because they didn’t understand what she taught. Instead of having you tell me I didn’t know what I believed, I’m just going to refuse to engage you any longer. Enjoy telling people what they do or do not understand or believe.
It’s funny, both atheists and many of the Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe that they are the only ones who truly understand everything, and if the rest of us would just listen long enough we’d agree with them. I suppose I shouldn’t point fingers, I used to be one of you. My previous posts attest to that. Ah well.
It’s funny, both atheists and many of the Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe that they are the only ones who truly understand everything, and if the rest of us would just listen long enough we’d agree with them. I suppose I shouldn’t point fingers, I used to be one of you. My previous posts attest to that. Ah well.
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joe370
Guest
I knew that authority consisted of the Magisterium + the Pope in the CC, and that authority consisted of the bishops of the world council in the EOC’s but I must admit I did not know that they needed the approval of the laity?
The laity have an authoritative say in the matter when the EOC’s teach infallibly regarding doctrines of faith or morals only? ??
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Rawb
Guest
Well, I wouldn’t say “only”. We also have quite a bit to say about what’s served at the Lenten Suppers after Presanctified Liturgy
But yes, the *entire *Church must agree. The laity are no less part of The Church than the clerics. There are numerous cases where a bishop, even a patriarch, has betrayed Orthodoxy and the laity overthrow the bishop. Even within our century (I think one of the most amusing is the story of the nuns and yiayias who attacked iconoclasts after one of their uprisings).
The Orthodox Laity understand that they too, are entrusted with protecting the sacred deposit of faith. The Holy Spirit does not act only through those who’ve received Holy Orders.
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fhansen
Guest
Catholics believe something akin to this-called the sensus fidelium.Well, I wouldn’t say “only”. We also have quite a bit to say about what’s served at the Lenten Suppers after Presanctified Liturgy
But yes, the *entire *Church must agree. The laity are no less part of The Church than the clerics. There are numerous cases where a bishop, even a patriarch, has betrayed Orthodoxy and the laity overthrow the bishop. Even within our century (I think one of the most amusing is the story of the nuns and yiayias who attacked iconoclasts after one of their uprisings).
The Orthodox Laity understand that they too, are entrusted with protecting the sacred deposit of faith. The Holy Spirit does not act only through those who’ve received Holy Orders.
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joe370
Guest
Wow, I did not know that there were numerous cases where a bishop, even a patriarch, has betrayed Orthodoxy and the laity overthrew the bishop…Very interesting…Well, I wouldn’t say “only”. We also have quite a bit to say about what’s served at the Lenten Suppers after Presanctified Liturgy
But yes, the *entire *Church must agree. The laity are no less part of The Church than the clerics. There are numerous cases where a bishop, even a patriarch, has betrayed Orthodoxy and the laity overthrow the bishop. Even within our century (I think one of the most amusing is the story of the nuns and yiayias who attacked iconoclasts after one of their uprisings).
The Orthodox Laity understand that they too, are entrusted with protecting the sacred deposit of faith. The Holy Spirit does not act only through those who’ve received Holy Orders.
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GraceSofia
Guest
No, that is not what I am implying.
I was addressing your comment:
where I thought you were comparing Orthodoxy and Catholicism, in other words, saying that EOC had survived these things better than Catholicism and that proved EOC superiority somehow. So I was saying that Eastern Orthodoxy had NOT done very well surviving the Islamic onslaught. Only Western Christendom remained free of the Muslim yoke.
Constantinople, Alexandria, etc. survive today as persecuted dhimmi minorities. Just imagine! What is today Muslim Turkey used to all be Christian. The entire Middle East was once Christian, but the Byzantines lost it. As for communism, I’m not sure the Russian Orthodox did all that well under the Soviets.
I’m not quite sure what can be gained actually, in these sorts of comparisons… now that I’ve taken your bait and engaged in it.
Well, this is your opinion. I believe that Catholicism does teach the same as it taught from the Apostles and is indeed very “big picture” Chrisitanity. I see evidence everywhere that the Holy Spirit is protecting the Church. In fact, Jesus promised it.
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kindheart
Guest
I am a newly confirmed Catholic, and these are a few quotes I’ve borrowed to express my feeling on the issue…
“It was like coming home… only to no home I’d ever known…” -sleepless in seattle
“It seems right now that all I’ve ever done in my life is making my way here to you.” -The Bridges of Madison County
“The best love is the kind that awakens the soul and makes us reach for more, that plants a fire in our hearts and brings peace to our minds” - The Notebook
“To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.” Blessed John Henry Newman. An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878)
“There are only a handful of Americans who hate the Catholic Church, though there are millions who hate what they think the Church is.” Bishop Fulton Sheen
~ “If we want to know what’s most sacred in this world, all we need to do is look for what is most violently profaned.” ~ Christopher West
“This morning I was pondering the irony of the fact that non-Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is headed by a man when the reason I am a Catholic is because it’s headed by Christ. On the flip side, Protestants believe their churches are headed by Christ when, all too often, they are cults of personality and headed by charismatic men and women who gather thousands around them because of their attractive and lively personalities and ability to arouse an emotional response.” Jill Souder Dembroff
" I wandered in the desert many, many years. Cradles never know what to tell them - and the longer I am in - I hardly remember what to tell them. Everything is so clear on the inside." -FB friend, Terry Fenwick
“It was like coming home… only to no home I’d ever known…” -sleepless in seattle
“It seems right now that all I’ve ever done in my life is making my way here to you.” -The Bridges of Madison County
“The best love is the kind that awakens the soul and makes us reach for more, that plants a fire in our hearts and brings peace to our minds” - The Notebook
“To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.” Blessed John Henry Newman. An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878)
“There are only a handful of Americans who hate the Catholic Church, though there are millions who hate what they think the Church is.” Bishop Fulton Sheen
~ “If we want to know what’s most sacred in this world, all we need to do is look for what is most violently profaned.” ~ Christopher West
“This morning I was pondering the irony of the fact that non-Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is headed by a man when the reason I am a Catholic is because it’s headed by Christ. On the flip side, Protestants believe their churches are headed by Christ when, all too often, they are cults of personality and headed by charismatic men and women who gather thousands around them because of their attractive and lively personalities and ability to arouse an emotional response.” Jill Souder Dembroff
" I wandered in the desert many, many years. Cradles never know what to tell them - and the longer I am in - I hardly remember what to tell them. Everything is so clear on the inside." -FB friend, Terry Fenwick
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GraceSofia
Guest
That is a great selection of quotes, kindheart! Welcome home.
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Rawb
Guest
…Wow. I was just commenting on my being impressed by the Orthodox’s ability to maintain their faith in the midst of such horrible persecutions. I certainly didn’t mean to imply any connection between the sufferings Catholics have experienced. I didn’t lay any “bait”. S’not my style.
You’re honestly implying here that the Muslim persecution of Eastern Christians is in large part due to the Easterners not having enough faith, or military strength make one a better Christian. I cannot believe that anyone would actually say the things I’ve highlighted. Because Orthodoxy has suffered and had to go underground they cannot possibly be the True Church? Romans have it right, because they’ve been free to practice their faith in public? Wow, lol.
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GraceSofia
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Well, this section of the thread did develop into a comparison between Orthodox and Catholics, so I don’t think it was unreasonable for me to interpret your post that way.
No, that is not what I said.
“Romans”? Do you mean Catholics? Catholics have not always been free to practice.
Remember Poland, Lithuania, and Catholics in Russia and Ukraine under the USSR. They have been brutally suppressed by communist regimes and still are in places like North Korea and China.
Just to be clear, I originally engaged you because you wrote this, which certainly seems to be a comparison:
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GraceSofia
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Have you not read about how Patriarch Alexei II collaborated with the KGB under the Soviets? catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=13868
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Rawb
Guest
While I’d still be interested in how you think the Russians could’ve “done better” or how it was the Byzantine’s fault that the muslims invaded, we are getting off topic.
I have to say also though, re-reading my previous post I can see what you mean about looking like a comparison. I didn’t mean to compare Catholics and Orthodox past my first sentence of “Orthodox, on the other hand, had retained everything.” Everything following that isn’t meant to be a comparison but just statements about The Faith. My apologies, I can see why you thought I was doing as you thought I was doing.
Edited to respond to your last post
When I say “the Russian Orthodox” I don’t mean just the clergy, even just the patriarch. Neither do you, when referencing Roman Catholicism. After all, if one Roman bishop or even the Pope had collaborated with communists (or any other group) you would not say that in any way disturbed the truth of your church.
I have to say also though, re-reading my previous post I can see what you mean about looking like a comparison. I didn’t mean to compare Catholics and Orthodox past my first sentence of “Orthodox, on the other hand, had retained everything.” Everything following that isn’t meant to be a comparison but just statements about The Faith. My apologies, I can see why you thought I was doing as you thought I was doing.
Edited to respond to your last post
When I say “the Russian Orthodox” I don’t mean just the clergy, even just the patriarch. Neither do you, when referencing Roman Catholicism. After all, if one Roman bishop or even the Pope had collaborated with communists (or any other group) you would not say that in any way disturbed the truth of your church.
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guanophore
Guest
Oh, no, not at all! Although it is the most common reason, especially among American Catholics (rebellion being the second), I know that there are other reasons. I begin with the most common. I trust that the person I am engaging will inform me if the facts are otherwise.
It is really impossible to tell what anyone believes in this environment. I mean, for all I know, you are role playing, and you are an atheist! I can only go off what people write. If I misunderstood what you meant, I hope you will correct me - unless, of course, having me misunderstand was part of the role play. :whacky:
Your posts give the impression that you don’t understand the Catholic faith. Perhaps they do not reflect you accurately, but if you wish to leave us with that impression, that is your affair.
I noticed you did not respond to any of my questions.
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GraceSofia
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Thank you. (I do not particularly enjoy getting into CC vs OC arguments and normally avoid them).
Yes, you’re right.
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dvdjs
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If you want to understand “who left whom” then study some history and get some facts. The claim that you make is commonly made by EOs, (obviously not be OOs) - particulary those who have not been EOs very long. But it is more than a little silly.
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guanophore
Guest
It is equally “silly” to omit the actions of the Roman Pontiff in the matter.
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