Reasons not to be Catholic?

[BiscuitCrusader]

As a Catholic, it would be improper for me to discourage my faith, but I fervently believe that all Christians can enter the kingdom of heaven and that we are all brothers and sisters in the eyes of God. Two of the primary reasons I chose the Catholic church is because it dates back to the time of Christ, who appointed the first Catholic Pope, showing he intended for us to live under the guidance of one, and secondly, many of the others were founded for reasons I disagree with, for instance, the Church of England was basically founded so a king could get a divorce, which I disagree with anyway. The Church of England places a king or queen at the head of a spiritual family which should not happen, as they live their lives in luxury with ignorance of the ways of the poor and the ways of Jesus Christ.

 

[guanophore]

If you don’t agree with the doctrines of the church of the church that you are attending, then leave and find one that you can agree with. In my case, I couldn’t swim the Tiber because I couldn’t agree with all Roman Catholic doctrines. Why be a fake?

It is good to have integrity, but this is a method that is centered around oneself, rather than God’s plan. The first converts did not behave this way.

Acts 2:42
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

They did not start new churches, or find some other group that fit with their own ideas better. They humbly submitted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching.

James 1:21
receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

having a humble, meek, and teachable heart will keep one close to the Apostolic faith, not church hopping to find something that fits themselves. Christ expects us to conform ourselves to Him, not find a fit that conforms to ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

No, because it does not convey the forgiveness of sins.

I am surprised that Lutherans do not believe that marriage conveys the forgiveness of sins. I am curious what you think of this verse:

1 Cor 7:14-15
4 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace.
16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

If God’s grace is not active in the marriage, how can one member of it be “consecrated” through the other?

How can one “save” the other?

1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.

What does the Apostle mean by this? Does not sin only get covered by the blood of Christ?

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;7891183]What do you mean by this, Jon? That you feel his spirit in your church services?

Whether or not I “feel” it is, to me, irrelevent. However, by faith, I know He is there in the preaching of the word - as we come to faith by the hearing of the word - and also by the sacraments - grace conferred in the water and word of Baptism, the pronouncement of absolution in confession/absolution, and the body and blood of our Savior in the Sacrament of the Altar.

But I submit to you, Jon, that if the Lutheran Church is not proclaiming anything that you find unpalatable, then you are in the wrong church.

My turn to ask what you mean by this.
If, however, you mean that there are things Lutheranism teaches or practices that I’m not in complete agreement with but accept in obedience, there are.
As examples:
Whether or not marriage (and Unction for that matter), are sacraments.
Whether or not those in the Church Triumphant can hear our requests for intercession,
considering verses such as Luke 15:7; “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need
no repentance.” If Christ says that the company of Heaven rejoices in this way over
the repentance of sinners on Earth, isn’t it safe to assume they have awareness of our
lives?

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Whether or not I “feel” it is, to me, irrelevent.

Indeed. Sometimes I do not “feel” His Presence in the Eucharist.

Yet “faith will tell us Christ is present, when our human senses fail.”

However, by faith, I know He is there in the preaching of the word - as we come to faith by the hearing of the word - and also by the sacraments - grace conferred in the water and word of Baptism, the pronouncement of absolution in confession/absolution, and the body and blood of our Savior in the Sacrament of the Altar.

Yes–Catholicism states that Christ is indeed present in His Word and His Sacraments.

But when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.

 

[hn160]

Indeed. Sometimes I do not “feel” His Presence in the Eucharist.

Yet “faith will tell us Christ is present, when our human senses fail.”

Yes–Catholicism states that Christ is indeed present in His Word and His Sacraments.

But when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.

Church is not about what we feel, it is about God feeding us in Confession and Absolution, in the Word read and preached and in the Sacrament of Holy Communion. Lutherans believe that in the Divine Service that God comes to us. There is a book on this subject titled Heaven on Earth, Gifts of God in the Divine Service by Arthur Just, Jr.

 

[PRmerger]

Church is not about what we feel, it is about God feeding us in Confession and Absolution, in the Word read and preached and in the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

 

[PRmerger]

My turn to ask what you mean by this.
If, however, you mean that there are things Lutheranism teaches or practices that I’m not in complete agreement with but accept in obedience, there are.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. So happy you got it!

As examples:
Whether or not marriage (and Unction for that matter), are sacraments.
Whether or not those in the Church Triumphant can hear our requests for intercession,
considering verses such as Luke 15:7; “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need
no repentance.” If Christ says that the company of Heaven rejoices in this way over
the repentance of sinners on Earth, isn’t it safe to assume they have awareness of our
lives?

Jon

So you are saying that the Lutheran church teaches that they can’t hear us, and that you accept their teaching, despite the Scriptures proclaiming something putatively contradictory?

 

[Krakatoa]

A member of every and any church will tell you they have found the truth. No one is a devout member of a church if they don’t believe it represents the truth. Of course, most (if not all) Christian churches believe in and profess some truth. Many churches could be described as incomplete more so than incorrect. But we know, of course, of some of the flat-out untruths many of them profess. Moreover, ever since the Great Schism, the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church each claim to be the Original Church, and the Reformation, of course, has greatly divided Christianity. Every devout member of every church in the world believes he/she has found the best, most complete, or the only truth. So if you ask the folks who have found ‘the truth’ to tell you what church to belong to, you’re bound to hear from many.

 

[JonNC]

So you are saying that the Lutheran church teaches that they can’t hear us, and that you accept their teaching, despite the Scriptures proclaiming something putatively contradictory?

I don’t see it as contradictory. Even in Luke 15:7, there is no command, example or promise regarding invocation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Indeed. Sometimes I do not “feel” His Presence in the Eucharist.

Yet “faith will tell us Christ is present, when our human senses fail.”

Yes–Catholicism states that Christ is indeed present in His Word and His Sacraments.

But when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.

In baptism, all of us are connected to Him, and not divorced. In hearing the word and receiving the sacrament, all of us are encouraged and strengthened by the Holy Spirit to remain in Him. His call is for us to be united, and we should continue to strive for that, but as sad as our division is, it is not a cause that Christ would ignore is promise that when “two or more are gathered in My name…”.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see it as contradictory. Even in Luke 15:7, there is no command, example or promise regarding invocation.

Jon

Lutherans do not believe those in heaven can “hear” our prayers, yes?

Just trying to be clear regarding Lutheran doctrine.

At any rate, I appreciate your answer. I often pose the question, but until now, never got a satisfactory answer.

My point in asking is to provide a catalyst, a question *ala *“things that make you go, ‘hmmm…’” * If one is in a religion/faith/church/denomination in which everything that is proclaimed is palatable, then how could this be a reflection of the One True God? *

That is, reason would declare that one has created a religion/faith/church/denomination in one’s own image, rather than in God’s. So if the concept of a hell makes me queasy, I’ll go find a church that says, “God didn’t really say there’s a hell.” If I’m divorced and re-married, I’ll find a church that says, “God didn’t really say you can’t do that.”

 

[PRmerger]

In baptism, all of us are connected to Him, and not divorced.

You do not believe that sin can divorce us from His Body? Do Lutherans not use the term “mortal sin”?

NB: I am not drawing a line from sin to the Lutheran Church. Just asking a bigger question right now.

 

[hazcompat]

First Apology of Justyn Martyr

Chapter LXVI.-Of the Eucharist.

And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a143 [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.144 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,145 this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/FATHERS2/ANF01/ANF0146.HTM#P3593_620967

peace

 

[Warrior1979]

In fact, to not ask others to pray for you is going against the commands of Scripture.

I curious as to where this prohibition is in the Catechism.

 

[PRmerger]

I curious as to where this prohibition is in the Catechism.

Why must it be found in the Catechism? (Incidentally, could you be more specific about what “prohibition” you’re referring to?)

Scripture clearly states that we must pray for each other, no? St. Paul asked for others to pray for him, yes?

Do you think St. Paul was proclaiming something contrary to God’s will?

 

[Warrior1979]

Why must it be found in the Catechism?

Because I’m interested in how the Church views the issue and whether it is considered infallible or not.

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;7896231]You do not believe that sin can divorce us from His Body? Do Lutherans not use the term “mortal sin”?

Yes, we do. The confessions are clear on that point. RE: mortal sin. It isn’t part of the language we usually use, but mortal sin would be sin that separates us from Christ - any and all sin of the unregenerate, repeated and unrepented sin (eventually) of the regenerate.

NB: I am not drawing a line from sin to the Lutheran Church. Just asking a bigger question right now.

Not a problem

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;7896226]Lutherans do not believe those in heaven can “hear” our prayers, yes?

I think the position of the reformers was that scripture, including the deuterocanon, do not provide us a command, example, or promise regarding the invocation of the saints. Obviously, considering the long practice of it both east and west, I am personally unwilling to condemn the practice.

At any rate, I appreciate your answer. I often pose the question, but until now, never got a satisfactory answer.

Thanks.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Because I’m interested in how the Church views the issue and whether it is considered infallible or not.

Fair enough.

I curious as to where this prohibition is in the Catechism.

What “prohibition” are you referring to?

You posted the above in response to my comment below, which is not a prohibition at all. So if you could clarify that would be helpful.

Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
In fact, to not ask others to pray for you is going against the commands of Scripture.