Reasons not to be Catholic?

[PRmerger]

Yes, we do. The confessions are clear on that point. RE: mortal sin. It isn’t part of the language we usually use, but mortal sin would be sin that separates us from Christ - any and all sin of the unregenerate, repeated and unrepented sin (eventually) of the regenerate.

So how do you reconcile the above comment with that which you professed below?

In baptism, all of us are connected to Him, and not divorced

Is not mortal sin a “divorce”?

 

[JonNC]

So how do you reconcile the above comment with that which you professed below?

Is not mortal sin a “divorce”?

If you remember, my original response was to your statement:

But when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.

So, I was responding directly to that. Surely, we have free will to reject grace.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

If you remember, my original response was to your statement:

So, I was responding directly to that. Surely, we have free will to reject grace.

Jon

Then, even if one is baptized, he can separate himself from Christ and His Body, yes?

And, thus, “when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.”

 

[JonNC]

Then, even if one is baptized, he can separate himself from Christ and His Body, yes?

And, thus, “when churches have divorced themselves from His Body, then, sadly, they are divorced from Him.”

That would require an understanding that I as a Lutheran am outside the body of Christ, or that I am guilty of the sin of separation. Even your catechism says I am not. I would also reject the notion that Lutheranism is outside the Body of Christ.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

That would require an understanding that I as a Lutheran am outside the body of Christ, or that I am guilty of the sin of separation. Even your catechism says I am not. I would also reject the notion that Lutheranism is outside the Body of Christ.

Jon

To what degree of culpability exists is not for me to determine.

 

[PRmerger]

To what degree of culpability exists is not for me to determine.

Addendum: I fear, Jon, that you may find this conversation vexing, and for that I am sorry. Yet I hope you understand that if you come to a Catholic forum, esp. in a thread titled “Reasons not to be Catholic”, you will not hear the heresy of religious syncretism espoused (by orthodox Catholics, that is).

 

[namaste8715]

I’ve seen a lot of sites on the Internet arguing why one should not become a Catholic. But then I’ve never seen what they think you should be instead. To me it seems like if the Catholic church is not the Church founded by Christ, then the Truth has not been preserved in any church. Because historically, the Catholic church is the first church, and everyone else have broken up from this one, at least that’s my knowledge. So if I seek to find The Church and The Truth, and I for some reason have found the Catholic church not to be the One, then whitch church should I go to??

Therefore I wonder if anyone who is not a Catholic or anyone who has converted from the Catholic church to another church could tell me which church you believe is the true one? Because I strongly want to believe that Christ has preserved His Truth along history, and if the Catholic church bears the Truth, then I see no reasons why one should not belong to it.

A lot of people make their choice of church based on which church best suits their beliefs and interests. But IF their is a Truth, then does it really matter what I think? I would rather obey to the Truth of the Lord than seeking the church with the best priest, songs or people.

My eyes got a little buggy reading the Orthodox vs. RCC vs. Lutheranism on this thread.

In reply to the OP, above, for me personally…

I believe that one should truly enjoy their worship experience, and I just didn’t enjoy the RCC for worship. There are many, many on this forum that will tell me that I am simply wrong in that, and that it may in fact damn me to Hell, but I’m ok with that. My reasons for not being Catholic (uppercase) are:

• I believe that each individual has the right and the means to interpret Scripture
• I don’t agree with large portions of the Catechism
• I believe that all Christians, even if they are on different paths, are on the right path - back to Christ
• I believe priests should be allowed to marry
• I believe that Christians have the RIGHT to enjoy worship, and to choose a worship style that reflects themselves

 

[JonNC]

Addendum: I fear, Jon, that you may find this conversation vexing, and for that I am sorry. Yet I hope you understand that if you come to a Catholic forum, esp. in a thread titled “Reasons not to be Catholic”, you will not hear the heresy of religious syncretism espoused (by orthodox Catholics, that is).

Quite the contrary, I find the conversation enlightening and energetic. I would never expect you to to participate in a way that requires you to compromise your beliefs, nor do I expect your communion to do so. This is why honest, truth seeking dialogue is so vital.
BTW, the LCMS is quite active in its avoidance of syncretism as well, as witnessed by a prominent LCMS pastor who was roundly criticised for participating in a muilti-religious event in New York after 911.

Jon

 

[flower_lady]

If you can read and comprehend what you read, and you have taken the time to study the history of the catholic faith. Their is no reason.

 

[Warrior1979]

You posted the above in response to my comment below, which is not a prohibition at all. So if you could clarify that would be helpful.

You stated.

In fact, to not ask others to pray for you is going against the commands of Scripture.

This implies that by not asking others to pray for me is a sin. Where is noted in the Catechism?

 

[LIT56RD]

In reply to the OP, above, for me personally…

I believe that one should truly enjoy their worship experience, and I just didn’t enjoy the RCC for worship. There are many, many on this forum that will tell me that I am simply wrong in that, and that it may in fact damn me to Hell, but I’m ok with that. My reasons for not being Catholic (uppercase) are:

• I believe that each individual has the right and the means to interpret Scripture
• I don’t agree with large portions of the Catechism
• I believe that all Christians, even if they are on different paths, are on the right path - back to Christ
• I believe priests should be allowed to marry
• I believe that Christians have the RIGHT to enjoy worship, and to choose a worship style that reflects themselves

I have been trying to put into coherent thoughts and words exactly what you wrote here. I am Catholic (sort of). Guess I really don’t know where I belong. What ever, thank you for stating so clearly what I have wanted to for so long.

 

[PRmerger]

Quite the contrary, I find the conversation enlightening and energetic. I would never expect you to to participate in a way that requires you to compromise your beliefs, nor do I expect your communion to do so. This is why honest, truth seeking dialogue is so vital.

:bowdown:

BTW, the LCMS is quite active in its avoidance of syncretism as well, as witnessed by a prominent LCMS pastor who was roundly criticised for participating in a muilti-religious event in New York after 911.

Jon

Just curious–what degree of authority exists in the LCMS to sanction a pastor? Can he be excommunicated? Will he retain his holy orders (is that what it’s called??)? Does he have authority, if sanctioned, to continue to preach or lead a parish?

(Note, again, this is a bigger question. No doubt the criticism above after 911 did not result in any formal investigation.)

 

[PRmerger]

This implies that by not asking others to pray for me is a sin. Where is noted in the Catechism?

This is a fair point. It is not in the Catechism that Catholics are obliged to invoke the communion of saints. Catholics are free to never pray the rosary, the litany of the saints, to light candles for others…

In fact, I suppose, it’s not a sin to never pray for anyone else except yourself.

So, it is true that you would not be sinning by never asking a saint to pray for you.

And it’s true that you can always simply pray for yourself…

It’s kind of a stripped down, bare-bones kind of communion with God, and God-alone, but I suppose that’s your right.

That doesn’t seem to be the kind of communion that St. Paul was proclaiming, but, again, you are right in that it is not a sin.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim. 2:1–4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[ESMDHokie77]

reasons not to be catholic… “Pope Myself the First” has a nice ring to it for some people.

 

[guanophore]

Because I’m interested in how the Church views the issue and whether it is considered infallible or not.

The communion of saints is one of the infallible teachings of the Church, formalized in the Nicean Creed.

In general, all of the teachings of the Apostles conained in the NT are considered infallible.

 

[guanophore]

reasons not to be catholic… “Pope Myself the First” has a nice ring to it for some people.

I think it often does boil down to an authority problem. Mankind still suffers from the same hubris he did in the garden of Eden. He thinks that he can determine for himself what is best for him without the commandment of God.

I have been mulling over this post since last night:

In reply to the OP, above, for me personally…

I believe that one should truly enjoy their worship experience, and I just didn’t enjoy the RCC for worship. There are many, many on this forum that will tell me that I am simply wrong in that, and that it may in fact damn me to Hell, but I’m ok with that. My reasons for not being Catholic (uppercase) are:

I agree with you, but I suspect for very different reasons.

No well catechized Catholic will ever tell you that anyone is “damned to hell”. This is against the Teachings of the Apostles that are infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Someone may tell you that the road to hell is paved with our desires to please ourselves, but at the same time, that one should be in fervent prayer for you that you get on a different road.

• I believe that each individual has the** right **and the means to interpret Scripture

The Bible was produced by the Catholic Church. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. When one takes a literary work and removes it from the context in which it was written one loses the ability to understand the meaning properly. It is like reading Shakespeare with no histoirical context.

Catholics believe that Scripture is part of the revelation by God of Himself to mankind. No human creature has a “right” to God’s revelation. On the contrary, if we all got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit. He has revealed Himself to us because of his love, and by grace, we can receive His disclosrue of Himself. This is to be done with humility adn obedience, not an emphasis on our “rights”, which we only have through His Mercy and the blood of His son.

• I don’t agree with large portions of the Catechism

Great!

I mean, great that you are here with your disagreement. Let’s start a new thread for every one!

-** I** believe that all Christians, even if they are on different paths, are on the right path - back to Christ

A comforting platitude that is a function of the culture of relativism in which we live. We have all been contaminated by it to one degree or another. I used to think this too.

• I believe priests should be allowed to marry

The Catholic Church does not fobid marriage to anyone.

Holy Orders are also not a “right” but a privilege and a gift. Does the clay say unto the Potter, why hast thou made me thus?

-** I** believe that Christians have the RIGHT to enjoy worship, and to choose a worship style that reflects themselves

In the end I think it boils down to whether we see ourselves as creatures, obligated to serve our Creator,or if we believe that we should be served.

For most people, the desire for religious experience is one which will best suit themselves.

I believe that Christians have the RIGHT to enjoy worship, and to choose a worship style that reflects themselves

I am pretty certain that namaste is talking about the variations of personality, and personal preferences for entertainment, music styles, etc. Whether the worship is contempletive or loud and boisterious, etc.

I used to think this way, and left the faith for a long time, seeking an ecclesial community that would meet my emotional needs. I often would say that I was not being “fed” in the CC,

Did God command that things should be done a certain way, or not? If He has designed worship according to what He beleives we need, who are we to change it?

I look back on the worship that was proscribed for Israel, and the only time I see anyone saying they wanted to redesign it to suit themselves was met by the earth opening and swallowing up the rebellious.

No, I take that back, some of the rebellious were put to the knife.

I have been trying to put into coherent thoughts and words exactly what you wrote here. I am Catholic (sort of). Guess I really don’t know where I belong. What ever, thank you for stating so clearly what I have wanted to for so long.

This, then, is an improvement, LIT. It means that you have made your decision to abandon the faith of your baptism based on actual facts of what the Church teaches, however, misguided, it is not a decision made based upon lies you have been told about what Catholics believe (like that they should not read their bibles).

 

[flower_lady]

If you can read and comprehend what you read, and you have taken the time to study the history of the Catholic faith. There is no reason.

 

[mdrummer5]

If you can read and comprehend what you read, and you have taken the time to study the history of the catholic faith. Their is no reason.

I’m not sure why you felt the need to post this twice… but since you did and nobody else has responded I will. Having studied the Catholic faith more in the last 6 months than I have any faith in my entire life (I’m 31) I can appreciate what you’re saying.

However, your statement implies that one who reads about but does not accept the Catholic faith lacks intelligence and if I weren’t on the path that I’m on I’d be highly insulted by this statement as it could easily be summed up by saying “Those that don’t believe Catholicism is the truth are either ignorant or stupid.” Just food for thought.

 

[Warrior1979]

This is a fair point. It is not in the Catechism that Catholics are obliged to invoke the communion of saints. Catholics are free to never pray the rosary, the litany of the saints, to light candles for others…

Thank you. I was very aware of this, since it is a common issue with Protestants converts (not that I was/am one, but I’ve read the issues).

In fact, I suppose, it’s not a sin to never pray for anyone else except yourself.

Just for clarification, my issue is not praying “for” others, it’s praying “through” others. We’re dealing with an omnipotent being, and I just simply don’t see the point when asking God for something…God Himself can handle it. With that said, I do recognize the communal aspects of communal prayer activity.

 

[JonNC]

:bowdown:

Just curious–what degree of authority exists in the LCMS to sanction a pastor? Can he be excommunicated? Will he retain his holy orders (is that what it’s called??)? Does he have authority, if sanctioned, to continue to preach or lead a parish?

(Note, again, this is a bigger question. No doubt the criticism above after 911 did not result in any formal investigation.)

Gosh. To be honest, I’ve never been in a congregation where this has happened. I’m not sure what steps would be taken. So, on the one hand, I do know that, when ordained, they are bound to the teachings of the Church, and not to their own personal interpretation of the Confessions. And I do know that there is a mechanism whereby the Church deals with those who step outside those teachings. For example, no LCMS pastor (no *Lutheran *pastor that I’m aware of) has the liberty to teach a symbolic presence in the Lord’s Supper, as that is contrary to the obvious teaching of scripture, the universal Church, and the the Lutheran Confessions. What the consequences are, I’m not sure, though I am sure that continuing to teach false doctrine would exclude them from continuing to be a pastor in an LCMS congregation.

Jon

PS: I do know that Pastor David Benke was a one point suspended, the exonerated.
If you google Benke LCMS there are a number of articles regards his participation at Yankee Stadium in the aftermath of 911.