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brotherhrolf
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Indeed. Veritas! The more of us who post what we know to be truth, the better.Welcome to the firums and the good fight. Glad to have you:thumbsup:
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Canto
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ljubim
Guest
The priest celebrating Mass leading, not facing, the people.
The quiet and sense of the sacred.
Nobody stares at and mocks you when you wear a veil and receive communion kneeling. It’s very distracting from the Mass. (though some might call me the distraction…
Lord, Have mercy on us.)
The abscense of awful, distracting music.
The incense :heaven:
Nobody staring you down with outstretched hand during the Our Father.
I guess it all boils down to: no distractions! Who’d have thunk it?
The quiet and sense of the sacred.
Nobody stares at and mocks you when you wear a veil and receive communion kneeling. It’s very distracting from the Mass. (though some might call me the distraction…
Lord, Have mercy on us.)The abscense of awful, distracting music.
The incense :heaven:
Nobody staring you down with outstretched hand during the Our Father.
I guess it all boils down to: no distractions! Who’d have thunk it?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
I have said on this thread, and elsewhere, too, that there is more to traditional Catholicism than a preference for the Extraordinary Form.
In fairness to others, allow me to clarify.
As I heard one traditionalist priest point out at a sermon delivered at an EF mass, patience, forbearance, charity, and especially assuming the best of those who disagree with you are traditional Catholicism, as well.
Surely this is something with which we can all agree, regardless of which rite of the Eucharistic Sacrifice we prefer.
In fairness to others, allow me to clarify.
As I heard one traditionalist priest point out at a sermon delivered at an EF mass, patience, forbearance, charity, and especially assuming the best of those who disagree with you are traditional Catholicism, as well.
Surely this is something with which we can all agree, regardless of which rite of the Eucharistic Sacrifice we prefer.
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
Excellent!! I add two more reasons. The EF envelopes us in the mysteries of our Faith and there is no room for the celebrant as celebrity. The focus is God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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brotherhrolf
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Certainly. Let’s see. There are private devotions such as being invested as a member of the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart since 1964 and attending to the promises Our Lord made to St. Margret Mary Alaquoque as well as the monthly prayer intentions of the Confraternity.
There is having an awareness that one’s direct ancestor knew and helped a saintly priest in her parish in a yellow fever epidemic close to 150 years ago and having one’s family pray for his beatification and seeing it come to fruition in my generation - Blessed Father Francis X. Seelos, a Redemptorist priest.
There is the profound sense that when one enters into the presence of Our Lord that one, indeed, is in His presence and one tries to act accordingly and not ignore His presence as a pretext for “community”.
There is having one’s conscience formed in the past and striving to attain to the demands of that conscience (and all that that entails) for one’s entire lifetime all the while knowing that one consistently falls short of the mark.
There is the sense of respect for the traditions (small “t”) of the Latin Rite Catholic church and a respect for those traditions of Eastern Catholic churches and those of our separated brethren instead of just “blowing them off” as ancient history…
For some of us, it means having remained faithful to HMC and never having stopped praying that we would one day recognize all that we have lost.
I am happy to say, Bishop, that there are several of us on this forum who are more than aware of what it means to be traditional Catholics.
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CradleCath
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Excellent, both of you!! Hopefully, I can add a couple of things
The return to the Sense of the Sacred. I am overwhelmed when I enter the Chruch vestibule each Sunday…it’s, once again, (after 40 yrs. of shaking hands & visiting & “gathering”) like I’ve entered another world. One is awed…sensing the peace & the solemnity of the Lord.
This “revival” of the TLM. has already changed my life & I’ve only been attending it for 2 yrs. May I ask that we ALL pray that we never lose this again, that the movement grows & benefits the whole world.
Sometimes I forget my “thank yous” when I pray, but to remind me I’ve put a screen saver on my computer of the Pope celebrating the Mass of 1962. Since I usually check my emails before bed, this is a great reminder to thank God for Pope Benedict & for the Mass of the Ages.
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CradleCath
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You mentioned “private devotions”, Brothefhrolf & it reminded my of a public devotions that I truly miss. Twice a year my pre-Vatican II parish offered a Novena to the Holy Spirit each evening for 9 days.
"The novena to the Holy Spirit is the oldest of all novenas since it was first made at the direction of Our Lord when He sent His apostles back to Jerusalem to await the coming of the Holy Spirit on the First Pentecost. It is still the only novena officially prescribed by the Church. Addressed to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, **it is a powerful plea for the light, strength and love so sorely needed by every Christian. **
It only lasted maybe 30 minutes. We’d have a short sermon, Benediction, then the prayers of the Novena. This went on for 9 consecutive days & offered a plenary indulgence.
It has been 40+ years since I’ve attended a Novena. There have been none offered in my area. I think that my memory is correct as to the Benediction & short Sermon being offered before we began with the actual Novena Prayers. If my Mother-In-Law was still alive, I could ask her, as they were her favorite devotion. She raised 8 children, who are all still practicing Catholics & gave most of the credit to the Novena to the Holy Spirit & Novenas in honor of the Virgin.
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MarineGuy
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My reason for loving the traditional Mass (“Extraordinary Form”) is pretty simple–because its CATHOLIC! I don’t consider the Novus Ordo rite to be truly Catholic since it was created by a committee and designed to be closer to the Protestant liturgies in the name of false ecumenism. Its main architect, Bugnini, was a Freemason and the committee that created it included nine Protestant ministers, and it shows.
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
Exactly right. After they caught up to him, Bugnini was shipped out – as ambassador to Iraq. In Vatican terms, exile, but it was too late.
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Canto
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How is the OF, when the black is said and the red is done, anything like a Protestant liturgy. There was venacular before Vat II and if they weren’t delayed, Protestants would have been at Trent (not to observe like Vat II) but to actually comment.
Was he a freemason? wiki says "The conservative Vatican prelate Cardinal Silvio Oddi was quoted as commenting: “I can swear that [Bugnini] was not a Freemason… I remain convinced that these accusations were made up by someone in his office… who wanted to eliminate him”.
ad2000.com.au/articles/1989/aug1989p18_635.html
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ProVobis
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Actually, even worse than Iraq at the time, Iran.
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bpbasilphx
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**Except for the last, all of these are possible with the Ordinary Form.
This last, however, is spiritually dangerous. It goes against the spirit of the Liturgy and mind of the Church and teaching of various popes (Pius X comes immediately to mind) against using a mass as a pretty background for one’s own personal prayers. In fact, to indulge in them during the liturgical services is, in effect, an act of schism.
Moreover, the holy fathers warn us against confusing reverie and daydreaming for prayer. This is a fast road to spiritual delusion (prelest or plani).**
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Layman
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Sure, they’re possible. They just don’t occur. You can argue, at a stretch, for this or that change to the Latin Rite as having a precedent or being tolerable, of itself.
But put them all together: Ho ho! I doubt an Orthodox congregation would put up with them: Tear down the iconostasis, let women read the [altered] sacred texts in the local dialect. Guitars? Yes please!
In the TLM, you can focus your mind. Or not. In the N.O., you have to constantly chime in. With prayers which are banal compared to the English or Latin of the old rite. And maybe a dodgy bidding prayer or two: wait, what did I just assent to?
When you attend a baptism with half a dozen laypeople in the sanctuary, one or two in mini-skirts, with no mention of Satan, you know the jig is up.
I vote this era be called the Minor Attrition of the Roman Catholic Church. The boil of modernism bulging up, to be lanced by time, indifference, mortality and the efforts of scattered traditionalists keeping the patient on life-support until the wound is healed
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Malleus_01
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Specifically - the Offertory and the Consecration and Communion.
In the Offertory
We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, entreating Thy mercy that our offering may ascend with a sweet fragrance in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.
Humbled in spirit and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord: and may our sacrifice be so offered this day in Thy sight as to be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.
Come Thou, the Sanctifier, Almighty and Everlasting God, and bless this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name.
Through the intercession of Blessed Michael the Archangel, standing at the right hand of the altar of incense, and of all His elect may the Lord vouchsafe to bless this incense and to receive it in the odor of sweetness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
May this incense blessed by You, arise before You, O Lord, and may Your mercy come down upon us.
Let my prayer, O Lord, like incense before You; the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice. O Lord, set a watch before my mouth, a guard at the door of my lips. Let not my heart incline to the evil of engaging in deeds of wickedness.
May the Lord enkindle in us the fire of His love and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen.
The Consecration
Who, the day before He suffered, took bread into His Holy and venerable hands, and having lifted up His eyes to heaven, to Thee, God, His Almighty Father, giving thanks to Thee, blessed it +, broke it, and gave it to His disciples, saying: Take and eat ye all of this:
FOR THIS IS MY BODY.
In like manner, after He had supped, taking also into His holy and venerable hands this goodly chalice, again giving thanks to Thee, He blessed it , and gave it to His disciples, saying: Take and drink ye all of this:
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.
As often as ye shall do these things, ye shall do them in remembrance of me.
And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us, a Victim which is pure, a Victim which is holy, a Victim which is spotless, the holy Bread of life eternal, and the Chalice of everlasting Salvation.
Deign to look upon them with a favorable and gracious countenance, and to accept them as Thou didst accept the offerings of Thy just servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham, and that which Thy high priest Melchisedech offered up to Thee, a holy Sacrifice, an immaculate Victim.
Holy Communion As we kneel and recieve Our Lord on the Tongue the Priest says
" May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto life everlasting. Amen."
The Novus Ordo Missae does none of these things.
In the Offertory
- ACCEPT, O Holy father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.
We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, entreating Thy mercy that our offering may ascend with a sweet fragrance in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.
Humbled in spirit and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord: and may our sacrifice be so offered this day in Thy sight as to be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.
Come Thou, the Sanctifier, Almighty and Everlasting God, and bless this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name.
Through the intercession of Blessed Michael the Archangel, standing at the right hand of the altar of incense, and of all His elect may the Lord vouchsafe to bless this incense and to receive it in the odor of sweetness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
May this incense blessed by You, arise before You, O Lord, and may Your mercy come down upon us.
Let my prayer, O Lord, like incense before You; the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice. O Lord, set a watch before my mouth, a guard at the door of my lips. Let not my heart incline to the evil of engaging in deeds of wickedness.
May the Lord enkindle in us the fire of His love and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen.
The Consecration
Who, the day before He suffered, took bread into His Holy and venerable hands, and having lifted up His eyes to heaven, to Thee, God, His Almighty Father, giving thanks to Thee, blessed it +, broke it, and gave it to His disciples, saying: Take and eat ye all of this:
FOR THIS IS MY BODY.
In like manner, after He had supped, taking also into His holy and venerable hands this goodly chalice, again giving thanks to Thee, He blessed it , and gave it to His disciples, saying: Take and drink ye all of this:
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.
As often as ye shall do these things, ye shall do them in remembrance of me.
And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us, a Victim which is pure, a Victim which is holy, a Victim which is spotless, the holy Bread of life eternal, and the Chalice of everlasting Salvation.
Deign to look upon them with a favorable and gracious countenance, and to accept them as Thou didst accept the offerings of Thy just servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham, and that which Thy high priest Melchisedech offered up to Thee, a holy Sacrifice, an immaculate Victim.
Holy Communion As we kneel and recieve Our Lord on the Tongue the Priest says
" May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto life everlasting. Amen."
The Novus Ordo Missae does none of these things.
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otjm
Guest
Well, interestingly, the Pope considers that while it was an abrupt change rather than an organic one, that the Mass is truly Catholic; I know of no Protestant liturgies that existed before the OF was promulgated that looked anything like the OF P(perhaps you can enlighten us); the OF is the Mass the Pope says, as well as the vast majority of Cardinals, bishops, and priests of the Roman rite; there has never been any proof offered which I can find that shows that Bugnini was a Freemason (never mind the issues of libel and slander, both of which, if I recall, can amount to a mortal sin) and so perhaps you can enlighten us with evidence - something other than “so and so said it” which is called hearsay.
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Ferde_Rombola
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Toward that end, my saintly pastor will celebrate TLM for the first time this evening at 7, and every Thursday during Lent. By Easter he’ll be so used to it he’ll make it a weekly Mass.
I second your vote.
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MarineGuy
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OTJM, there are many documented instances in which it is apparent that the Novus Ordo was made to resemble Protestant liturgies–especially the Lutheran service. There are statements from pariahs of Vatican II from the period which corroborate this. The introduction of additional Eucharistic prayers to choose from (two of which do not even mention sacrifice), omission of prayers referencing the Blessed Virgin Mary and saints; discouragement of private Masses; encouragement of creativity and countless “options” in which parts of the Mass can be omitted or committed at the whim of the priest (if the priest even has a role, typically in the Novus Ordo such matters are predetermined by a lay-run “liturgy committee”); Mass facing the people, on a table rather than a consecrated altar, lay people distributing communion, handling the sacred vessels, blurring of distinction between priest and laity, vernacular, etc. are all innovations introduced and encouraged by Martin Luther and other “reformers” like Cranmer. Sure, the Novus Ordo CAN be celebrated to “look” like a traditional Mass, in Latin even…all of these are superficial changes. The prayers and nature of the New Rite still remains banal and Protestant as ever. (The Anglican and Lutheran services can also be celebrated to look like Catholic Mass, but they are still essentially Protestant). Having the Novus Ordo in Latin, ad orientem, sort of defeats its purpose anyway.
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MarineGuy
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So what if all of these are “possible”?? All of these are “possible” in a Protestant service, too! The smells-and-bells alone do not make a rite truly Catholic. You know what else is possible (more likely PROBABLE) in the OF??–communion in the hand, guitar/folk/rock music, hand-holding, lay “ministers” of communion, Mass on a table (NO does not require an altar much less one with relics), communion in the hand, etc. are possible in the OF too and, in fact, are the NORM. The nature of the traditional Mass (“EF”) does not allow for any of these travesties.
Some of you people seem to be encouraging having a “high church”/“low church” mentality based on personal preferences resembling Anglicanism within the Catholic Church.
As for your last comment, I understand that praying the Mass itself DURING Mass is most commendable and the best thing to do at Mass. But your comment that it is an “act of schism” to pray the Rosary or another devotion during Mass it outrageous. In the Catechism of St. Pius X, the Pope said:
"19 Q: Does the recitation of the Rosary or other prayers during Mass prevent us from hearing it with profit?
“A: The recitation of the Rosary and other prayers during Mass does not prevent us from hearing it with profit, provided we try As far as possible to follow the parts of the Holy Sacrifice.”
And Pope Pius XII said in his encyclical Mediator Dei:
“Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? **On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them. **”
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fish90
Guest
Respectfully, can you provide any specific evidence?
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