rebuilding trust with fiance

[Chevaleresse]

“You’re turning this in to a rape discussion? Really?”

You just did. Red herring. Now please respond to the examples I raised.

“when two people mutually decide to have sex I have a hard time viewing it as the man using her against her will.”

It goes both ways. A straw man: I never said it was necessarily against anyone’s will.

“Why is it wrong? Because I think that in telling him that I would be showing myself as a dishonest hypocrite. Either I love him completely and am willing to share everything with him, or I’m not.”

Which is why people get married. They don’t sleep with multiple people. How can someone give themselves completely if a crowd of people can claim they received the same thing? Again, why the transiency in sexual relationships?

“You really strike me as someone who has been hurt sexually.”

No, but thanks for the insinuation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well much?

“Over and over again on threads you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction of “Premarital sex=promiscuity=will never be as good of a spouse as a virgin”. But there is so much more to being a good spouse that prior sexual history means very little.”

There’s the knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction. But thanks for another straw man: I never said they’d never be good as a spouse. Please, read my comments for what I’m saying, not what you want them to say.

“I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say with that study. I don’t think anyone here is advocating marrying the guy who picks up a different woman every night. That would be foolish as he’s obviously not living a lifestyle that even allows him to build a relationship.”

The one thing the study stresses is the that the jump from no premarital sex (zero partners before marriage) to one or more partners before marriage is massive in terms of respect for the other person. That’s one point I’m trying to make.

“But a guy who gave up that lifestyle? Or someone who never had it but had sex with previous sexual partners? That’s a different situation and needs to be treated as such.”

Each situation involves one or both of the persons using the other as a means to their own ends (you know, like “friends with benefits” - it sounds so benign, but they’re just using each other). You still haven’t addressed my point about high partner counts and the high divorce rate (and maybe the relation between them). Can you? Saying “it is what you make of it” is a cop out - it’s also not the definition of respect. And again, I’d like you to define respect. It’s not (supposed to be) hard.

Women these days don’t have an idea of what it is to be respected. Friends of mine think it’s cute/okay for a man to leer at them; premarital sex is just an extension of that kind of disrespect.

One of the common responses from a study on sexual relationships was “He made me feel disrespected” (labeled as partner negativity). The “coital events”, as the researchers refer to them, were all voluntary/mutually desired.

"A Prospective Study of the Sexual, Emotional, and Behavioral Correlates Associated With Young Women’s First and Usual Coital Events"
Amanda E. Tanner, Devon J. Hensel, J. Dennis Fortenberry,
Journal of Adolescent Health, Volume 47, Issue 1, July 2010, Pages 20-25

Please stop sidestepping my points.

====

“any relation to Chevalier ?”

No, and I’m sure he’s happy to keep it that way. LOL.

 

[Lucky7]

Are you ladies done yet? In Chev’s desire to show just how wrong Blue Eyed Lady is she is in no way helping out the OP. Time to give up wanting to prove how right you are.

 

[Kelfa28]

“The past is in the past” is a vacuous argument. It’s also circular. Guys who have sex before marriage usually do not respect women, and the attitude stays with them. It’s like doing a criminal background check.

That is certainly NOT true.

Cite your sources that say they “usually” don’t respect women.

That is a ridiculous and inflammatory statement about all men.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You just did. Red herring. Now please respond to the examples I raised.

No, you were the one who said “Doesn’t she have a choice?” and “Do you have a right to force someone?”

It goes both ways. A straw man: I never said it was necessarily against anyone’s will.

See above

Which is why people get married. They don’t sleep with multiple people. How can someone give themselves completely if a crowd of people can claim they received the same thing? Again, why the transiency in sexual relationships?

There is a world of difference between sex with someone you love and sex with someone you don’t. Not that I advocate for having sex with someone you don’t.

No, but thanks for the insinuation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well much?

I took Logic my freshman year of college too. Moving on.

There’s the knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction. But thanks for another straw man: I never said they’d never be good as a spouse. Please, read my comments for what I’m saying, not what you want them to say.

See above

The one thing the study stresses is the that the jump from no premarital sex (zero partners before marriage) to one or more partners before marriage is massive in terms of respect for the other person. That’s one point I’m trying to make.

I’m not sure exactly what you are saying here but there are also countless studies that show that premarital sex is beneficial. This is one of those issues where you can find evidence both ways.

Each situation involves one or both of the persons using the other as a means to their own ends (you know, like “friends with benefits” - it sounds so benign, but they’re just using each other). You still haven’t addressed my point about high partner counts and the high divorce rate (and maybe the relation between them). Can you? Saying “it is what you make of it” is a cop out - it’s also not the definition of respect. And again, I’d like you to define respect. It’s not (supposed to be) hard.

I have yet to see anything that shows a high number of previous partners increases a risk for divorce. And no, I still don’t think its disrespectful for two consenting adults who are on the same page and who love each other to have sex.

Women these days don’t have an idea of what it is to be respected. Friends of mine think it’s cute/okay for a man to leer at them; premarital sex is just an extension of that kind of disrespect.
I can’t speak for your friends but I have a pretty good idea of when I’m being respected. That’s something that my mother made sure to instill in me.

One of the common responses from a study on sexual relationships was “He made me feel disrespected” (labeled as partner negativity). The “coital events”, as the researchers refer to them, were all voluntary/mutually desired.

"A Prospective Study of the Sexual, Emotional, and Behavioral Correlates Associated With Young Women’s First and Usual Coital Events"
Amanda E. Tanner, Devon J. Hensel, J. Dennis Fortenberry,
Journal of Adolescent Health, Volume 47, Issue 1, July 2010, Pages 20-25

I would need to see the full study, who funded it, and who carried it out.

Please stop sidestepping my points.

====

No, and I’m sure he’s happy to keep it that way. LOL.

 

[Chevaleresse]

Are you ladies done yet? In Chev’s desire to show just how wrong Blue Eyed Lady is she is in no way helping out the OP. Time to give up wanting to prove how right you are.

I keep getting responses. It’s Chevaleresse, BTW.

The OP already got a clear response from everyone to dump her boyfriend.

 

[Lucky7]

I keep getting responses. It’s Chevaleresse, BTW.

Still proving others wrong huh?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You got it all wrong BEL, what makes you a hypocrite is giving yourself to him but withholding the marital commitment.I’m not withholding marriage. The date is set, the venue is booked, and the menu is planned. And as for the marital commitment that was made a long time ago. It makes no sense to put any value on your sexual relations if you do not believe that they should only take place in the context of a committed, faithful relationship.I do believe that. It cheapens the sex and it cheapens the persons. You are not giving him anything much if you think it’s ok that that same thing was shared among others.The same thing wasn’t shared. Sex with the person you are spending your life with is very different than sex with people you thought you were going to spend your life with. Giving yourself to someone is only truly special if you believe you should be giving yourself ONLY to that person. I definitely believe that I should only have sex with him.

Major holes in your logic, even from a non-Catholic point of view.

I’ll definitely grant that if you believe that marriage is ordained by god and that you damn yourself to hell by engaging in premarital sex then yes, it would be wrong to do that to someone. But that’s not how I was raised, and that’s not what I believe. I’ve always believed that the wedding doesn’t make the marriage, and that you shouldn’t be any more in love or committed the day after the ceremony than you were the day before.

Basically what I’m saying is without the religious significance of marriage there really isn’t a reason to think that premarital sex is cruel, selfish, etc. as long as no one is being used, lied to, hurt, whatever.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I keep getting responses. It’s Chevaleresse, BTW.

So do I.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“No, you were the one who said “Doesn’t she have a choice?” and “Do you have a right to force someone?””

Actually, I never used those words. Bad form.

Since along with my points I’ve made, you’ve also ignored context:

“Does the women get a say?” – in whether it is considered respectful or not.

“Is forcing people okay?” – you stated that refusing sex to your fiancé, if he asked for it, was wrong. So basically, to do the right thing (in your mind) you don’t refuse. You seem to be suggesting that you can’t say no, and so there is only one action for you to take as a result of another’s decision. That’s the definition of forcing. You’ve ceded your decision-making to the that of another person.

“There is a world of difference between sex with someone you love and sex with someone you don’t. Not that I advocate for having sex with someone you don’t.”

So again: transiency in sexual relationships and respect. You’ve been ignoring my points…

“I took Logic my freshman year of college too. Moving on.”

Did you pass? BTW, claiming to have taken a logic course doesn’t allow you to make fallacious arguments. You should know that.

“I’m not sure exactly what you are saying here but there are also countless studies that show that premarital sex is beneficial. This is one of those issues where you can find evidence both ways.”

We’re not talking about that. Red herring. Nice try.

“I have yet to see anything that shows a high number of previous partners increases a risk for divorce. And no, I still don’t think its disrespectful for two consenting adults who are on the same page and who love each other to have sex.”

“women who were sexually active prior to marriage faced a considerably higher risk of marital disruption than women were were virgin brides. A bivariate probit model is employed to examine three possible explanations for this positive relationship: (a) a direct causal effect, (b) an indirect effect through intervening “high risk” behaviors (such as having a premarital birth or marrying at a young age), and (c) a selectivity effect representing prior differences between virgins and nonvirgins (such as family background or attitudes and values). After a variety of observable characteristics are controlled, nonvirgins still face a much higher risk of divorce than virgins.”

"Premarital Sex and the Risk of Divorce"
Joan R. Kahn and Kathryn A. London
Journal of Marriage and Family
Vol. 53, No. 4 (Nov., 1991) (pp. 845-855)

"Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution among Women"
Jay Teachman
Journal of Marriage and Family
Vol. 65, No. 2 (May, 2003) (pp. 444-455)

**“Saying Yes before Saying I Do: Premarital Sex and Cohabitation as a Piece of the Divorce Puzzle”
Alvare, Helen M.
18 Notre Dame J.L. Ethics & Pub. Pol’y 7 (2004) **

"Premarital Predictors of Marital Quality and Stability"
Jeffry H. Larson and Thomas B. Holman
Family Relations
Vol. 43, No. 2 (Apr., 1994) (pp. 228-237)

**“Premarital Precursors of Marital Infidelity”
ALLEN, E. S., RHOADES, G. K., STANLEY, S. M., MARKMAN, H. J., WILLIAMS, T., MELTON, J. and CLEMENTS, M. L.
Family Process, 47 (2008): 243–259. **

"Premarital Cohabitation and Marital Dissolution: An Examination of Recent Marriages"
MANNING, W. D. and COHEN, J. A.
Journal of Marriage and Family, 74 (2012): 377–387.

"Adolescent Premarital Sexual Activity Cohabitation, And Attitudes Toward Marriage"
Martin, Paige D., Maggie Martin, and Don Martin.
Adolescence 36.143 (2001): 601

Rayburn, Allison Claire. “The Relationship Between Premarital Sexual Behaviors and the State of the Marriage”
MSc Diss., Louisiana State University, 2005

"Marriage as a pure relationship: Exploring the Link Between Premarital Cohabitation and Divorce in Canada"
Hall, D.R.
Journal of Comparative Family Studies, vol. 27, no. 1 (1996), pp. 1-1.

"Does Premarital Cohabitation Predict Subsequent Marital Stability and Marital Quality? A Meta-Analysis"
Jose, A., Daniel O’Leary, K. and Moyer, A.
Journal of Marriage and Family, 72 (2010): 105–116

Now you have.

“I would need to see the full study, who funded it, and who carried it out.”

Ask a med student for access.

Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine,
Department of Health, Behavior, & Society, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland
Section of Adolescent Medicine, Indiana University School of Medicine, Indianapolis, Indiana

Names are already above.

Again, please stop sidestepping my points.

And again, I’m dying to see your definition of respect. So what does respect look like to you? Disrespect?

 

[Chevaleresse]

Still proving others wrong huh?

It’s not a matter of proving.

 

[Chevaleresse]

That is certainly NOT true.

Cite your sources that say they “usually” don’t respect women.

That is a ridiculous and inflammatory statement about all men.

I already cited my sources. Read my comments.

 

[Kelfa28]

I already cited my sources. Read my comments.

All of which have to do with just premarital sex and cohabitation and the continuation of both within the context of Marriage.

Anything there on repentance and forgiveness? Any of those cites reference a relationship where the couple realizes the error of their ways and are working towards a closer relationship with Christ and are looking to repent and start fresh? The couple that stops the cohabitation and the premarital sex and go to confession and are forgiven? Are they any different?

Or are those relationships the same? Do those men also have little to no respect for women despite their past and despite their commitment to the faith and living a life with Christ?

 

[Lucky7]

All of which have to do with just premarital sex and cohabitation and the continuation of both within the context of Marriage.

Anything there on repentance and forgiveness? Any of those cites reference a relationship where the couple realizes the error of their ways and are working towards a closer relationship with Christ and are looking to repent and start fresh? The couple that stops the cohabitation and the premarital sex and go to confession and are forgiven? Are they any different?

Or are those relationships the same? Do those men also have little to no respect for women despite their past and despite their commitment to the faith and living a life with Christ?

And what about women? Since we’re busy with generalizations, do all women who engage in premarital sex disrespect all men? Or does that only work one way?

 

[ValPal]

“women who were sexually active prior to marriage faced a considerably higher risk of marital disruption than women were were virgin brides. A bivariate probit model is employed to examine three possible explanations for this positive relationship: (a) a direct causal effect, (b) an indirect effect through intervening “high risk” behaviors (such as having a premarital birth or marrying at a young age), and (c) a selectivity effect representing prior differences between virgins and nonvirgins (such as family background or attitudes and values). After a variety of observable characteristics are controlled, nonvirgins still face a much higher risk of divorce than virgins.”

FWIW, the bolded section above is the main issue: It’s all about morals. If a person has no morals, the fact that they had no premarital relations is irrelevant.

One common theme that I’ve seen about people that what until marriage is that they have set a very high moral standard for themselves and their partner. The fact they don’t have premarital sex is a result of that moral standard; not the other way around, as many erroneously assume.

That said, many people learn from their mistakes and clean up their act. That takes time and effort to demonstrate.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

And what about women? Since we’re busy with generalizations, do all women who engage in premarital sex disrespect all men? Or does that only work one way?

It works both ways, but also, women who engage in premarital sex do not respect themselves. Men USED TO BE the initiators of sexual encounters, but no longer. Now females are just as likely if not MORE likely to be the aggressor in a sexual encounter. The roles have reversed. Premarital sex is disrespect for YOURSELF as a child of God and for the other person.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“And what about women? Since we’re busy with generalizations, do all women who engage in premarital sex disrespect all men? Or does that only work one way?”

I was answering a challenge to one particular post. The replies can be generalized for women.

“FWIW, the bolded section above is the main issue: It’s all about morals. If a person has no morals, the fact that they had no premarital relations is irrelevant.”

And the next sentence: “After a variety of observable characteristics are controlled, nonvirgins still face a much higher risk of divorce than virgins.”

“That said, many people learn from their mistakes and clean up their act. That takes time and effort to demonstrate.”

If you go by marriage failure rates, I’d say most don’t learn from their mistakes. Of course you get examples on here of someone figuring out how to respect women (i.e. religion as a corrective). In more secular marriages, men (and even women) continue to use pornography in their marriages - statistically leads to more infidelity. Based on models I’ve seen (and the ones I’ve constructed), people learning from their mistakes before marriage and never returning to their old ways is highly, highly unlikely. But that’s why I said this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9891304&postcount=22&highlight=usually

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9893588&postcount=36&highlight=reminder

“All of which have to do with just premarital sex and cohabitation and the continuation of both within the context of Marriage.”

No, they don’t.

“Anything there on repentance and forgiveness? Any of those cites reference a relationship where the couple realizes the error of their ways and are working towards a closer relationship with Christ and are looking to repent and start fresh? The couple that stops the cohabitation and the premarital sex and go to confession and are forgiven? Are they any different?”

One of the studies addresses some of this. If they stop, it lowers the chance of divorce/“marital disruption”/infidelity, but not enough to completely reverse the damage in all cases. So it’s unlikely to help in the long run.

“Or are those relationships the same? Do those men also have little to no respect for women despite their past and despite their commitment to the faith and living a life with Christ?”

Did you actually read my comments?

 

[Chevaleresse]

It works both ways, but also, women who engage in premarital sex do not respect themselves. Men USED TO BE the initiators of sexual encounters, but no longer. Now females are just as likely if not MORE likely to be the aggressor in a sexual encounter. The roles have reversed. Premarital sex is disrespect for YOURSELF as a child of God and for the other person.

Yep, women are more aggressive these days. It’s a combination of trying to hurt/disrespect the other before you get hurt/disrespected, changing attitudes/lack of morals, and of course contraceptives allowing “indiscriminate couplings”.

 

[EasterJoy]

We’ve gotten off topic…the OP didn’t ask about the level of respect that could be expected between the sexes.

Can we agree on these things:

The OP’s fiance has not just made mistakes that need forgiveness. Rather, the OP’s fiance has demonstrated ingrained character traits of lack of integrity and lack of respect for those he should want to place in very high respect, just to start the list. Those are two rats. Where you see one rat, expect that there are probably a dozen more.

The OPs fiance has demonstrated negative character traits serious enough that from either one of these alone a reasonable person would question his ability to contract a marriage that is even valid, let alone a happy one. No one in their right mind ought to ever embark upon an attempt at marriage as seriously flawed as this one promises to be.

People who have a good character self-amend far more often than they have to be corrected by others. When they are corrected, they are diligent about incorporating their new knowledge of the boundaries of others into their own behaviors. They do not pretend to accept correction and promise amendment, but then blow it off. If they have no intention of accepting your correction, they say so right up front.

People who seriously lack character will pretend to have character around those who do in order to manipulate and decieve those who do, but only as much as they think they have to in order to get what they want. This trait will not be rectified by any amount of couples counselling. It is a practical certainty that it is a lifelong trait. It is a trait that makes a valid marriage impossible. We can’t read souls or minds, but psychologists warn that the most reliable outward sign of this trait is repeated instances of deception. That is the only warning most of us will ever get concerning what we are dealing with.

We could argue all day about the character traits that make a good husband or that faults that all human nature is prone to, but we would be arguing primarily about people who fall between the two character groups described above, wouldn’t we? Say what you will about what makes a good husband; I think we can all agree right now that this guy is extremely unlikely to have it. If he ever amends, which is unlikely, it will be due to the shock of finding out that good people see through him and won’t tolerate his misbehavior.

OP, hope and pray that this fellow will see the light, turn over a new leaf, and some day make some woman a good husband. We all want that for him, I am sure, as God thirsts for all souls. Accept that this woman is not going to be you. Pray for him, let go of his misdeeds and wish him all that is good, but leave him and do not look back. It is one of few things you can do that might actually lead to his amendment. Do not under any circumstances or with any amount of begging from anyone in your life throw your life away on any other plan.

 

[ValPal]

And the next sentence: “After a variety of observable characteristics are controlled, nonvirgins still face a much higher risk of divorce than virgins.”

It can say whatever it wants. Show me a study that gives the divorce rate on virgins with no morals, then we can continue the discussion.

If you go by marriage failure rates, I’d say most don’t learn from their mistakes.

Given that over 90% of people have sex before marriage, and about half divorce (if statistics are correct), that an incredibly large number that have learned from their mistakes…and that’s not even considering the causes for divorce, which are diverse. It’s also not considering that one of those people in the marriage may have been immoral in the past, and completely changed their ways, yet is dumped by their spouse. There are plenty of spouses that are victims in divorce nowadays (myself being included).

Based on models I’ve seen (and the ones I’ve constructed), people learning from their mistakes before marriage and never returning to their old ways is highly, highly unlikely.

That’s utter garbage. In fact, it’s insulting to a great many people on this very forum, who have learned from their past mistakes.

Many of those mistakes are made when people are younger and are greatly influenced by those immoral people around them, and are guided by their emotions and hormones more than their mind. As they get older, some mature and change their ways, others don’t. I’ve surely changed in a big way over the years, as have those people I associate with (the rest I’ve dumped).

 

[thewanderer]

I’ll definitely grant that if you believe that marriage is ordained by god and that you damn yourself to hell by engaging in premarital sex then yes, it would be wrong to do that to someone.

But that’s not how I was raised, and that’s not what I believe. I’ve always believed that the wedding doesn’t make the marriage, and that you shouldn’t be any more in love or committed the day after the ceremony than you were the day before.

Basically what I’m saying is without the religious significance of marriage there really isn’t a reason to think that premarital sex is cruel, selfish, etc. as long as no one is being used, lied to, hurt, whatever.

BEL, I have a lot of respect for you on these forums, but I just wanted to point out that your assumption that the only reason somebody would think it is a good idea to wait until marriage to have sex is because they will be damned to hell if they don’t is very false. I am someone who, even if I lost my faith tomorrow, would still be 100% committed to no sex before marriage. The reason being that that level of self-giving is only appropriate within an unconditionally comitted relationship. And seeing as I view solemn promises and vows as things of substance (versus just a piece of paper, which, your right, is just a piece of paper and I couldn’t care less about it) I see it as unfitting and inappropriate to give yourself fully to another without first making solemn vows wherein you commit yourself unconditionally to the other. Getting married is about so much more than ‘just a piece of paper’.