Rebuttal: Karlo Broussard's False "A God-Bathed World" argument

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MPat, you have posted many times but still haven’t clarified Broussard’s
argument, particularly why the tree being made of atoms from the seed and
soil is not a sufficient explanation for the tree’s existence.
So, we can conclude that you are not very good at motivating people? 🙂

Because I do not see why I should do what you seem to demand or expect.

For example, why should I clarify anything to you when do not say that you do not understand something?

Admit that you do not know what would be a sufficient explanation of tree’s existence (but have a guess, a hypothesis - which is not to be just presumed to be true) - and then, perhaps, it would be possible to move further.
 
MPat, please stop trying to argue here.
 
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MPat, please stop trying to argue here.
Why, thank you! 🙂

Such clear admissions of “defeat” are rather rare around here. 🙂

(Of course, demanding that someone would not “try to argue” in “Philosophy” subforum might deserve a separate “Thank you!”. 🙂 )
 
This discussion isn’t a contest, and I didn’t 'admit defeat’. (I am posting this hoping there will be more responses that I may learn something new.)

I am grateful for your participation, MPat, but so far you have not taught me anything. Peace be with you.
 
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This discussion isn’t a contest, and I didn’t 'admit defeat’. (I am posting this hoping there will be more responses that I may learn something new.)

I am grateful for your participation, MPat, but so far you have not taught me anything. Peace be with you.
It is true that discussions in this forum should not be contests. It is true that they should help everyone learn something.

But just because they should doesn’t mean that they always are.

Now, of course, you did learn something here. You claimed rather extreme scepticism, including not knowing that Moon is not made of green cheese. Well, now you know that you do know that - and that claiming otherwise looks silly.

Now it would be the turn of finding out that you do not “know” if existence of a tree needs an explanation, although you do have a guess that it doesn’t.

After such an admission it would be possible to explore possible explanations (hint: you already gave one yourself, without noticing).

But not if you seem to claim that it is not your duty to look for truth, but a duty of someone else to force you to accept it.
 
It is clear to me that the explanation I gave for the tree is sufficient.
You must say more about why it isn’t.
 
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It is clear to me that the explanation I gave for the tree is sufficient.
Then why are you complaining that you haven’t been taught anything? Apparently, there is nothing for you to learn, everything is clear to you already. 🙂
You must say more about why it isn’t.
It is you who claim that everything is clear to you. Maybe you should explain why you think that your explanation is sufficient, if you think it is so clear?
 
Read my posts again, because I already explained. I am sorry that you
haven’t understood so far.
 
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Read my posts again, because I already explained. I am sorry that you
haven’t understood so far.
Oh, I do understand you well enough. But, you see, nothing like “My answer is correct unless I admit it has been proved to be wrong.” is a valid explanation, and you have given no other.

And, since that’s the only “argument” you give, that’s the only argument I have to answer. And all I need to answer it is to show that this position is not intellectually honest.

For example, that you claim certainty here, when you had to be forced to admit that you know that Moon is not made of green cheese. And, of course. you have no good reason to be certain about sufficiency of explanation of tree’s existence, while you had lots of evidence for Moon not being made of green cheese.

Now, of course, there is another interesting question: why do you keep claiming such things? What do you have to lose, if you’d admit that you do not “know” that your explanation is sufficient, but just “strongly suspect” that it is?
 
Your thinking is so peculiar, Pat.

You did help me to see that we can claim our beliefs about the moon to be knowledge since the narrative about the moon is so firmly agreed upon by every scientific agency.

But then you continue to insist that I must declare… what, exactly? That I don’t know that what I said about the tree is correct? Perhaps you misunderstood it: I’m saying if someone wants to know why the tree exists, talking about its atoms and how they came to their current arrangement is one sufficient answer. I’m not saying it’s the only sufficient one, but simply that it is sufficient. This is obvious and a fact, not a belief.

Karlo says it’s not in his article, but then fails to substantiate this assertion that it’s not. That’s the point of this thread.

Are we clear now?

Moreover, I am not interested in proving this to you. If you have something helpful to say about the argument linked in the OP, then say it. Otherwise, please stop occupying my time, which needs to go to cancer research.
 
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Karlo says it’s not in his article, but then fails to substantiate this assertion that it’s not. That’s the point of this thread.

Are we clear now?

Moreover, I am not interested in proving this to you.
So, when someone else is not interested in proving things to you, that’s supposed to be terrible, but when you are not interested in proving things to someone else, that is supposed to be perfectly fine?

Looks rather hypocritical, doesn’t it? 🙂
If you have something helpful to say about the argument linked in the OP, then say it. Otherwise, please stop occupying my time, which needs to go to cancer research.
And do you use the same approach there too?

That is, are you content to say that cancer came into being, and now exists as a brute fact, just because of “inertia”? Do you see existence of its atoms as sufficient reason, are happy with it without proof of sufficiency, and look for no other?

That is, are you not looking for some genes, enzymes, other molecules or processes that are required for further existence of cancerous tissue? Which, of course, could be removed or “sabotaged” to actually treat cancer?

If you are not, you are not much of a cancer researcher. If you are - you are not applying your philosophy, but our philosophy - while trying to reject it.

And that again would look rather hypocritical (and suboptimal - research you can do without intellectual dishonesty is likely to be more productive too), wouldn’t it? 🙂
 
So, when someone else is not interested in proving things to you, that’s supposed to be terrible, but when you are not interested in proving things to someone else, that is supposed to be perfectly fine?
Right. It’s important to note that I created this thread to ask questions. That’s how web forums work: You go into a thread with the goal of answering the OP’s question. If you don’t want to answer my questions, why are you here? If you want someone to answer your questions, go make your own thread. That’s how web forums work.

To answer your questions about my philosophy, of course I look for physical causes just as with the tree. I don’t say “it happened without a reason”, just as I didn’t say that about Karlo’s tree.
 
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Right. It’s important to note that I created this thread to ask questions. That’s how web forums work: You go into a thread with the goal of answering the OP’s question. If you don’t want to answer my questions, why are you here? If you want someone to answer your questions, go make your own thread. That’s how web forums work.
No. That is not how web forums work and it is definitely not what you did. Let’s look at an example of what you really wrote in the beginning of this thread:
Please stop giving Catholic Answers money to enable Karlo Broussard to continue confusing people with false philosophy.
Am I supposed to believe that this is a question?

No, you did not ask questions (there was just one question mark in your words, and it does not end a question you ask). You stated your position, as if it was truth known with perfect certainty.

Now, of course, it looks like you have nothing to offer in support of your position, with exception of posturing, distractions and excuses (like the “web forums” one), for you have yet to offer anything more substantial in favour of it.
To answer your questions about my philosophy, of course I look for physical causes just as with the tree. I don’t say “it happened without a reason”, just as I didn’t say that about Karlo’s tree.
You talk as if the word “physical” was important here. It is not.

The premise that the argument in question needs is just that there are no brute facts, that we have to look for explanation of existence of everything, that everything that does not exist necessarily has at least one cause (and per se causal series behind it) that keeps it in existence.

You might note that nothing in here is claimed to be “physical” or “non-physical”, “chemical” or “non-chemical”, “biological” or “non-biological”. Thus none of your attacks find a target. 🙂

And, as you can see, it is a pretty basic premise. Reject it - and you reject all possible science (and thus you’re out of a job). You can’t research cancer in any way worth mentioning if you have to take possibility that its existence is just a brute fact seriously.

And if you accept it, the argument runs to the conclusion that something does exist necessarily, having explanation of its own existence in itself. At that point we do not know much about that “something”, but we can start exploring its properties. That is, is it material or non-material, is it unique, or are there many of them etc.

It’s your choice.
 
I’m sorry, but I’m tired of responding to you, and I don’t see that your logic is valid. I mean, literally, you are not properly regarding what I’ve written. Hence it seems futile to continue trying to discourse with you. Thanks for your time thus far, and please pray for me instead.
 
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