Rebuttal of the myth that Catholics can fully embrace either political conservatism or liberalism, by a Franciscan University of Steubenville professo

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The demonizing, even the damning as with Fr. Greeley, is part and parcel of the Bureaucratic Authority of Rebels Antagonizing Kids/BARAK propaganda machine…
It is possible that an objective person might look at what is on certain TV channels and what is on certain radio stations and conclude that the political conservatives have their own propaganda machines? Is it only “propaganda” when one’s political opponents are doing it?

To me, the only institution that really does not have a major presence in the mass media is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does have some TV presence and some radio presence. But, compared to what political-cultural liberals have and what political-cultural conservatives have, the Catholic presence is minuscule.

To me, that’s the problem. Because the two warring movements occupy so much mass media time and space, so many Catholics seem to end up taking one or the other political movement as their Main Teacher and Final Authority, and they “edit” their Catholicism for fit one or the other movement.

So many Catholics think that so save America, they must jump wholeheartedly into one or the other of these political movements.

Yet, the only movement that Jesus ever told us to join was the Church. See Matt. 28:19. usccb.org/bible/mt/28:19

Thank God we have Catholic Answers! They are out there making a good faith effort, on the radio, and with these forums.
 
In the end, on any given election day, every Catholic in the U.S. (or in any nation with voting) has a duty to vote, and is limited to voting for candidates who are on the ballot…
There is no Catholic teaching that says we may not write in our vote. The decision to do so is one based on an individual’s best prudential judgement. There have been occasions where a write-in candidate actually won an election, so it not a universally crazy idea.
 
Is it really likely that this author, Professor Stephen Krason, tenured faculty at the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a licensed attorney, a holder of a Ph.D., is an economic illiterate? Read about Professor Krason here: franciscan.edu/faculty/KrasonS/

Is it really likely that Blessed Pope John XXIII was an economic illiterate, as he was called in essence by William F. Buckely, a lay Catholic and one of the founders of the modern Conservative movement? Read about that here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_si,_magistra_no

Is it really likely that Pope Benedict XVI is an economic illiterate, as he was called in essence by George Weigel, a lay Catholic writing in the magazine founded by William F. Buckley? Read about that here: blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100002538/george-weigels-intemperate-attack-on-benedicts-incoherent-encyclical/
If I could explain how this author is wrong by all means I would love to, however what I have to say is too long to post unfortunately. 😦
 
“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”–G.K. Chesterton

I am neither progressive nor conservative.
Conservative means keeping things as they are. I want to turn back to when we were better.

I am a Traditionalist (in politics and most other things). Monarchist, Subsidiarity, Distributism.
 
“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”–G.K. Chesterton

I am neither progressive nor conservative.
Conservative means keeping things as they are. I want to turn back to when we were better.

I am a Traditionalist (in politics and most other things). Monarchist, Subsidiarity, Distributism.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Traditionalists and Modernists. The business of Modernists is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Traditionalists is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. – TEPO. 😃

Sorry, I just think its funny how it still makes sense… :D. I think there’s a rule called Newtons Law of Motion -"To every action there is always Opposed an equal reaction. Funny how the laws of nature include human behavior. I think God must have a sense of humor.
 
Catholics CANNOT embrace or endorse the full agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement in the USA, and that any Catholic who does fully embrace and endorse the entire agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement is a DISSENTER, just like all the Catholics dissenters who embrace the political Liberal Movement.
Actually it’s quite the opposite…

Catholics MUST embrace or endorse some of the agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement in the USA, and any Catholic who does not embrace and endorse some of the agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement is a DISSENTER, just like all the Catholic dissenters who fail to embrace some policies of the political Liberal Movement. 😃
 
If I could explain how this author is wrong by all means I would love to, however what I have to say is too long to post unfortunately. 😦
Why don’t you start by quoting the parts of his essay where he is wrong. Cutting and pasting shouldn’t be too difficult.
 
Actually it’s quite the opposite…

Catholics MUST embrace or endorse some of the agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement in the USA, and any Catholic who does not embrace and endorse some of the agenda and platform of the political Conservative Movement is a DISSENTER, just like all the Catholic dissenters who fail to embrace some policies of the political Liberal Movement. 😃
:tiphat::clapping:👍👍
 
The whole modern world has divided itself into Traditionalists and Modernists. The business of Modernists is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Traditionalists is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. – TEPO. 😃
:tiphat::clapping:
 
Why don’t you start by quoting the parts of his essay where he is wrong. Cutting and pasting shouldn’t be too difficult.
I don’t know if I’m going to get in trouble with the mods for successive posts, I already have enough warnings and infractions. 😦
 
I don’t know if I’m going to get in trouble with the mods for successive posts, I already have enough warnings and infractions. 😦
Good idea to keep a low profile. I know others who have been banned. Pray for the patience to be charitable.
 
I think a lot has changed since the late 60s, early 70s – both on my personal level and the political level.

I was reared in a Presbyterian, small business Republican family, with Linclon and Teddy Roosevelt held up as heroes and FDR as the villain. I was for Nixon in 1968, then against him by 1972 (around the time I converted to my husband’s religion, Catholicism), and have been voting Democrat ever since, bec of the greater racism in the Republican party (and we are still feeling the pinch of racism in our society today from all quarters, tho it is not so overt), and more and more bec of environmental issues. However, I’ve been very conflicted re the abortion issue, since I’ve been anti-abortion from well before I became Catholic – I think from my life-long environmental (life) sentiments (these fit together for me); I campaigned vigorously for Ellen McCormack (anti-abortion Democrat) in 1976 and participate in pro-life activities.

For me, it’s been like being a war general trying to figure how to promote life the best and reduce killing and harm to people the most. In my thinking both the Republicans and Dems are pro-death, but the Dems seem slightly better on life issues on the whole, despite their “pro-choice” stance. That’s the best assessment I could come up with, and it may not be accurate. Part of it comes from my knowlege of women all around me getting abortions when they were illegal, so I know simply passing laws will not end and many not even reduce abortion; the Church really has a much greater role in the abortion issue to raise consciousness that it is an evil (I think Catholics have abortions at a higher rate than non-Catholics, but I’m not sure). I’m also aware that whatever the Dems do re the environment, it will not amount to anything, if people themselves refuse to do their parts. Voting for me is a very tough dilemma call, and whoever I vote for I am going to feel very bad.

However, I just cannot vote for someone into (or allowing) annihilating of all life on earth through global warming and other serious environmental harms, even tho I understand that abortion is a “non-negotiable,” intrinsic evil, and that an individual emitting excess GHGs is not nearly as sinful as an individual having an abortion – no comparison. Agreed. However, I have never had an abortion, but I am contributing GHGs and other pollutants that harm and kill people. And saving babies, just to kill them or let them die is really no option for me.

Back in the late 60s, early 70s, up until 1972, abortion was not an issue in politics (to my knowledge), so it was easier for Catholics to vote Democrat, esp since the Democrats seemed a bit better in supporting agenda closer to Catholic social teachings, including helping pregnant women in need of help. So much so, non-Catholics often considered Catholics to be communists (like my mom told me – she also though Unitarians were communists, as well).

Also even tho there had been environmental issues (preservation and conservation movements) before the late 60s, that didn’t seem to be a huge issue, but has become more so, with more serious problems – maybe not the local stream catching on fire as in the 60s & 70s from a toxic chemical stew, but global life-support systems greatly threatened. There are at least 9 of them, not just global warming – see stockholmresilience.org/planetary-boundaries .

In the past the best environmental presidents were Republicans – Teddy Roosevelt and Nixon – so it is really troublesome that current Republicans have thrown the environment overboard, tho I understand the issue of funding ever more expensive campaigns with fossil fuel money, etc. (BTW, Clinton & Bush Sr received the same amounts from the fossil fuel industries in the 1992 election).

Now for those who put life issues above economic and political issues (and indeed life is fundamental, and the economy is merely instrumental and contingent – we need food to sustain life more than we need money or grocery stores, tho the latter help make food more easily available; and freedom is meaningless if the people are dead) there is a really painful split of the life issues between the parties. And I’m thinking it could have perhaps gone either way, but the Republicans took up the abortion issue (perhaps bec it’s no skin off their nose since they don’t plan to help babies born poor or in need of medical help), and the Democrats have in a very weak and pathetic way taken up environmental issues. As mentioned Republicans have traditionally been the forefront of environmentalism, while working class Democrats were often in the past willing to suffer the “sweet smell” of polluting industrial money.

I guess the important point is that if a person is a Republican, they can also support a healthy environment and solving serious environmental problems (and not deny such environmental problems exist the way their partymen do), and if a person is a Democrat, they can be anti-abortion like their partymen (and not pretend the unborn human being is just some plasma blob that doesn’t count, and not dwell on “rights” of the born as more important than “duties” to others, including the unborn).

Whichever party we are in, we need to stand against their platforms that are against Catholicism. We need to try and transform those parties, even if it seems we are swimming against a very strong current. I think that’s what it means to be Christian, to be Catholic.

We are just reading FOUNDATIONS in my Carmelite group, and the problems St. Teresa had to face were enormous. She just kept on trucking, without losing her patience or falling into sin of uncharity.
 
skrason.wordpress.com/ [His blog is titled [COLOR=“Red”]“Neither Left nor Right, but Catholic.”
]

June 1, 2012

THE CONSERVATIVE WEAKNESS

AND THE SOLUTION:

CATHOLIC SOCIAL TEACHING

by Professor Stephen M. Krason
Franciscan University of Steubenville

In my article on “Roman Catholicism” in American Conservatism: An Encyclopedia, I wrote that, “Conservative thought parallels Roman Catholic teaching in many respects.” I also pointed out, however, that the Church “does not fully embrace it or any particular socio-politico-economic perspective.” I especially pointed to the problem of the classical liberal economic perspective in certain branches of what is today called “conservatism,” which is probably the predominant view in varying degrees of most of the political right.

The problem with this whole thing is that the author (at least as represented in the OP, which may or may not be his thesis) appears to assume that most or all conservatives are proponents of classic liberalism when they aren’t. Most conservatives I know are not that way at all.

What conservative on here opposes having social security retirement at all? Perhaps some do, but I think a “show of hands” would demonstrate otherwise.

What conservative on here opposes welfare for the disabled needy? Again, if we had a “show of hands” on that, I doubt the “I oppose” vote would be substantial among avowed conservatives.

I have not read this fellow’s book, and perhaps should. But if he is painting all political conservatives with the “laissez faire all the way” brush, then he has done Catholics a major disservice. It is a disservice because the “pox on both houses” approach encourages a moral equivalency between the parties and candidates that is simply not there. It’s moral relativism at its very worst.

We are free in conscience, for example, to argue over just exactly who “the poor” really are and what might be best done to aid them in becoming un-poor. Among conservatives, that is really the debate most would prefer to have happen. We are not free in conscience to embrace abortion, infanticide, homosexual “marriage.” We just are not.
 
I guess this proves I signed up for the wrong church.
I disagree, Sailor Kenshin. What you did NOT sign up for is leftist spin on Church teachings. Just look at the OP. Everything that can be construed (and I do mean 'construed") as being a condemnation of conservativsm is color-emphasized. If you read the whole thing and ignore the color spin, what the professor is really saying is that a particular interpretation of conservatism (which few conservatives hold) can be contrary to Church teachings.

Well, sure. If we’re talking about letting, say, the disabled starve to death on the streets in front of our eyes, I don’t think the most ardent conservative in the country would be for that. But that’s what “pure laissez-faire” would be like if taken to the absolute extreme.

If you want to know what the Church really teaches about social obligations, read the Social Encyclicals yourself. They exactly teach that extremes are wrong. But the “Charles Dickens” view of economic conservatism died long ago, and is hardly worth talking about now. But leftist views on the extreme are alive and well. In the last century, they killed upward of a hundred million people. The left/libertarian social doctrines of the left are also alive and well, and taking more lives all the time.

Don’t despair, Sailor. That’s exactly what the totalitarian left wants you to do, and they’ll misrepresent the Church in doing it if they can.
 
The problem with this whole thing is that the author (at least as represented in the OP, which may or may not be his thesis) appears to assume that most or all conservatives are proponents of classic liberalism when they aren’t. Most conservatives I know are not that way at all.

What conservative on here opposes having social security retirement at all? Perhaps some do, but I think a “show of hands” would demonstrate otherwise.

What conservative on here opposes welfare for the disabled needy? Again, if we had a “show of hands” on that, I doubt the “I oppose” vote would be substantial among avowed conservatives.

I have not read this fellow’s book, and perhaps should. But if he is painting all political conservatives with the “laissez faire all the way” brush, then he has done Catholics a major disservice. It is a disservice because the “pox on both houses” approach encourages a moral equivalency between the parties and candidates that is simply not there. It’s moral relativism at its very worst.

We are free in conscience, for example, to argue over just exactly who “the poor” really are and what might be best done to aid them in becoming un-poor. Among conservatives, that is really the debate most would prefer to have happen. We are not free in conscience to embrace abortion, infanticide, homosexual “marriage.” We just are not.
I agree. Also not all “liberals” are for abortion, infanticide, and homosexual marriage (tho I’d be for life-supports and help for homosexuals such as might be provided through universal health care, which is one of the impetus’s for homosexual marriage, so they and their children can get on their partner’s health care).

I guess we need to hold our nose and vote for candidates with aspects that go against Catholicism.

However, the post seems to hit on something, bec I think there is a tendency of striving to avoid “cognitive dissonance” to downplay the bad parts of one’s chosen candidate and play up the good parts. It is important to do a reality check and understand whoever we vote for, there will be aspects that go against our faith, that it is a very tough call in picking candidates.

From my perspective, we are not free in conscience to choose a candidate who promotes annihilation of all life of earth, even tho that may take decades and centuries to play out from the harms set in motion today – indeed we may have already passed tipping points…the uncertainty in science cuts both ways. Aborting and killing babies and future generations is just wrong, always wrong, and cannot be justified no matter what. We also vote on this every time we drive our ICE cars, since that pollution also cause abortions (miscarriages). So we need to vote on election day, and also everyday, for life.
 
I agree. Also not all “liberals” are for abortion, infanticide, and homosexual marriage (tho I’d be for life-supports and help for homosexuals such as might be provided through universal health care, which is one of the impetus’s for homosexual marriage, so they and their children can get on their partner’s health care).

I guess we need to hold our nose and vote for candidates with aspects that go against Catholicism.

However, the post seems to hit on something, bec I think there is a tendency of striving to avoid “cognitive dissonance” to downplay the bad parts of one’s chosen candidate and play up the good parts. It is important to do a reality check and understand whoever we vote for, there will be aspects that go against our faith, that it is a very tough call in picking candidates.

From my perspective, we are not free in conscience to choose a candidate who promotes annihilation of all life of earth, even tho that may take decades and centuries to play out from the harms set in motion today – indeed we may have already passed tipping points…the uncertainty in science cuts both ways. Aborting and killing babies and future generations is just wrong, always wrong, and cannot be justified no matter what. We also vote on this every time we drive our ICE cars, since that pollution also cause abortions (miscarriages). So we need to vote on election day, and also everyday, for life.
But again, I would ask you…what conservatives on here at least, really advocate an economic system in which those who truly cannot help themselves, are left to starve to death on the street? What candidate advocates that?

We had a tempest in a teapot recently when Paul Ryan proposed INCREASING food stamp funding by only 8% rather than 12%. Maybe 8% is adequate and maybe it isn’t, but those who went indignant over it had no idea. Nevertheless, many characterized his proposals as those of absolute unfettered Charles Dickens laissez-faire when they weren’t. Why? Because it serves the abortionists and euthanizers purposes to make people think such things. It takes a lot to persuade people to favor death, and the false specter of death by starvation is one way to make economic conservatism seem equivalent to killing infants by design. It’s a false choice precisely because while conservatives do not favor starving people to death, the left really does favor infanticide by abortion or neglect.

And I don’t know that anyone has persuasively demonstrated that auto exhaust in the environment causes miscarriages. Perhaps you could provide that evidence.
 
We are free in conscience, for example, to argue over just exactly who “the poor” really are and what might be best done to aid them in becoming un-poor. Among conservatives, that is really the debate most would prefer to have happen. We are not free in conscience to embrace abortion, infanticide, homosexual “marriage”. We just are not.
👍
Correct. Those are not gray areas, up for debate among Catholics applying a faithfully formed conscience (as opposed to a secularly-formed conscience) to voting decisions.

And, the conscientious voter, regardless of any religious affiliation or lack thereof, should always weigh likely consequences of voting decisions – consequences to all of society, not just to her or his fave segment of society (or worse, sheer self-interest). I have always tried to do that; I’m sure I have fallen short from time to time in how thoroughly informed I was about all the consequences of all the issues. But some broad projections are possible:

Anything really radical – in terms of economics, political structures, or social structures – should be a red flag for the voter to think long & hard about voting from the brain and not from the “passions,” as the ancients used to say. By the passions they didn’t mean convictions, as we often mean; they meant reactive emotion. This is the problem I see with issues like the ACA. Even many CAF debaters on this issue voice their support of the ACA to be based on (rational and understandable) frustration with layers of dysfunction in U.S. healthcare. And thus the ‘anything-is-better-than-what-we-have’ position is activated. (Otherwise known as “Throw the Rascals Out.”)

But the ACA without modification has unknown economic reach at the moment. Projections have been made, but projections are always subject to unknowns, due to the fluidity of human & economic dynamics affected by such changes. Same with the ancillary (some would say central) consequence to religious liberty proceeding from the HHS “mandate.”

Similarly with political structures. If someone suggested a radical overhaul which could stand a constitutional challenge but would have enormous ripple effects of a sudden & dramatic nature, the responsible voter should think twice, and research thrice, about his support.

Ditto for social structures. People who know their cultural history appreciate how fundamental the traditional family unit is to the stability of a society. It’s where children learn how men and women relate to each other (and how they shouldn’t relate, or what can be unhealthy about relationships), and where a young psyche is formed into a psychologically, morally, and sexually integrated adult, capable of making these balanced & responsible decisions about a country’s welfare. The family unit is not peripheral to political, economic, and social issues, but is essential to them.
 
Also, has not all this happened before? In Germany, in the period of 1920s-1940s, did not a political conservative movement there convince many German Catholics that they needed to set aside certain parts of Catholic Social Doctrine in order to be good Germans and good party members and good soldiers for the Reich?
I do believe we have confirmed the truth of Godwin’s Law once again.

I have never understood why Nazism is considered a right-wing political belief. Nazism is a short form of National Socialism. This alone ought to be a big indicator that the Nazi and the conservative are not alike.

National Socialism was based on the premise that there was a master race, what conservative has believed that? Also, National Socialists used sterilization and eugenics to achieve their goals, both policies advocated by founder of Planned Parenthood the muderous organization supported by the liberal party in the US today.

Under National Socialism, the state approved wage and salary levels for private businesses, that sounds more like the minimum wage, which is a left-wing policy.

There is no evidence that the Nazis were political conservatives, unless the claims made by leftists to demonize the conservative movement are considered evidence.
 
I do believe we have confirmed the truth of Godwin’s Law once again.

I have never understood why Nazism is considered a right-wing political belief. Nazism is a short form of National Socialism. This alone ought to be a big indicator that the Nazi and the conservative are not alike.

National Socialism was based on the premise that there was a master race, what conservative has believed that? Also, National Socialists used sterilization and eugenics to achieve their goals, both policies advocated by founder of Planned Parenthood the muderous organization supported by the liberal party in the US today.

Under National Socialism, the state approved wage and salary levels for private businesses, that sounds more like the minimum wage, which is a left-wing policy.

There is no evidence that the Nazis were political conservatives, unless the claims made by leftists to demonize the conservative movement are considered evidence.
Not to mention, they were big environmentalists: supported big public works projects, public-private partnerships, believed in animal welfare rights, progressive taxation, minimum wage, labor unions, secularism, anti-globalism, racist, anti-smoking, and pro-gun control.

None of which is widely supported by the Right. 🙂
 
But leftist views on the extreme are alive and well. In the last century, they killed upward of a hundred million people. The left/libertarian social doctrines of the left are also alive and well, and taking more lives all the time.
We all believe in being fair.

So I am sure all here will agree that it is right and just to point out that Leftist ideologues killed gigantic numbers of innocent people, (mainly in the USSR, Mao’ China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia) as long as you are fair and point out that Rightist ideologues (mainly in Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and their allies and imitators) in the 20th century killed about the same number.

Also, thousands were slaughtered too by the Rightist ideologues in the 19th century too (President Jackson in the Cherokee Removal, President Polk in the Mexican-America War; both of these actions were prospectively disapproved of by the policies of President George Washington)

Both Rightist and Leftist ideologues are threats to human civilization.

Only the CATHOLIC FAITH leads to the “civilization of love” that Blessed John Paul II never ceases to preach about.

In the U.S., Leftists spurn Catholic Pro-Life Doctrine (unborn children’s right to life) and Rightists spurn Catholic Social Doctrine (Labor Unions, Minimum Wage, National Health Insurance, etc.)

The pope and the bishops call us to be full and entire Catholics. But the politico keep on playing their game of “divide and conquer,” which has been working well for the last 40 years, during which the decline of American and the West has continued apace.

A true Catholic cannot be a true Rightist or a true Leftist, though the leaders of these political movement don’t want Catholics to know that.

But there is hope. Christ lives. The Church lives. Christ and the Church will save us.
 
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