Rebuttal of the myth that Catholics can fully embrace either political conservatism or liberalism, by a Franciscan University of Steubenville professo

[stinkcat_14]

What George W Bush and the 91 House Republicans 33 Senate Republicans did, does not make them Socialists based on one vote. However they did vote in favor of a Socialist bill.

When you add the fact that he expanded the federal government’s role in education with NCLB, signed into law a marxist healthcare legislation and increased government spending dramatically, then he looks pretty marxist to me.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, then, following the logic above, does the bail outs of the banks in 2008 prove that President George W. Bush and his bulk of his party members who supported the bailouts were all Socialists and Marxists? Does it prove that big American bankers are mainly Socialists and Marxists?

Wrong thing to cite. TARP1b was instituted to prevent a freeze-up of banking. Banks were getting reluctant to entrust Fed Funds to each other out of fear. TARP 1b guaranteed Fed Funds. It also essentially loaned money to viable banks and simultaneously encouraged them to acquire the failing banks. Most TARP 1b money has been paid back profitably.

In 2009, TARP was morphed into something different altogether.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Wikipedia:

Apology of Pope John Paul II

In 2000 Pope John Paul II on behalf of all people, apologized to Jews by inserting a prayer at the Western Wall that read “We’re deeply saddened by the behavior of those in the course of history who have caused the children of God to suffer, and asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”[100] This papal apology, one of many issued by Pope John Paul II for past human and Church failings throughout history, was especially significant because John Paul II emphasized Church guilt for, and the Second Vatican Council’s condemnation of, anti-Semitism.[101] The papal letter We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah, urged Catholics to repent “of past errors and infidelities” and “renew the awareness of the Hebrew roots of their faith.”[101][102]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany

See also this:

Most Recent Statements. Shortly after Cardinal Edward Idris Cassidy took charge of the Vatican’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews in January of 1990, the Commission began work on what was intended to be a single Roman Catholic document on the Shoah. It soon became quite clear that this was not the ideal course because the experiences of different countries were so different during the Holocaust period.25 As a consequence, various national conferences of bishops spoke out before the Vatican’s own statement was released in March, 1998. German Bishops issued their statement in 1995. They admitted that “Christians did not offer due resistance to racial antisemitism” and they confessed a general indifference that paved the way for crimes or even some becoming criminals themselves. While recognizing that there were many individual acts of resistance, the bishops stressed that not even the assaults on the Jewish people and synagogues of November, 1938 led to public protest.26

bc.edu/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/bernauer.htm

Massively off topic. There have been threads about whether the Church acted properly as regards Nazism and the Holocaust. One could start another one and not derail this one.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

The whole modern world has divided itself into Traditionalists and Modernists. The business of Modernists is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Traditionalists is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. – TEPO.

Sorry, I just think its funny how it still makes sense… . I think there’s a rule called Newtons Law of Motion -"To every action there is always Opposed an equal reaction. Funny how the laws of nature include human behavior. I think God must have a sense of humor.

Ah no. A conservative by definition wants things to stay as they are. A Traditionalist recognizes the problems in society and looks to bringing society back to the past as a way of fixing things.

We see the problems of democracy and pluralism, and our solution is a Catholic Confessional State. The conservative wants to leave things be. THe traditionalist wants to bring things back to the way they were.

After the French Revolution and its disasters, the Orleanists were conservative (wanting to not go farther than the revolution but compromising with its goals), they wanted a constitutional monarch. The Legitimists wanted a return to an absolute monarchy (they wanted to actually fix the mistakes and reverse the revolution).

 

[Not_Sure_1]

The Catholics in Germany during the 1930s and 1940s were so numerous, and so influential, that had they been faithful to Pope Pius XII’s edict against racism, and had they as a groups, as a Church, refused to accept Hitler’s racists policies, there would have been no Holocaust and perhaps no Hitler regime at all.

To me, this is a sad case of Catholics setting aside the teachings of the Catholic Church in order to be patriots of their worldly nation, or to be good party members.

To me, the sad thing is that this failing of Catholics continues today, both with the liberal movement and the conservative movement in the USA.

Most Catholics who are involved with politics seem to be Nationalists first, Party Members second, and Catholics some where way down the line. Shouldn’t a Catholic be a Catholic first and ultimately? Can being a political conservative get one into Heaven?

You seem to be a big man, now looking back and judging the actions of the past.
Bet you wouldn’t talk so much, had you been there.

 

[austenbosten]

When you add the fact that he expanded the federal government’s role in education with NCLB, signed into law a marxist healthcare legislation and increased government spending dramatically, then he looks pretty marxist to me.

Excuse me, but nowhere did George W Bush believe that the “rich” were evil and their wealth should be “shared” Nowhere did GWB believe in a single-payer system as the Democrats believe. Simply expanding government does not make one a Marxist. It does however make them Liberal and I believe that GWB was a liberal. Declaring Bush a Marxist is an exaggeration.

I believe GWB was a social liberal. For the most part he was pro-market, however he advanced a lot of bad Socialist policies.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Most of us don’t have time to become experts on history, economics, sociology, philosophy, or anything other than what we do in our jobs. To me, it is tough problem. There is an intense ideological war going on in our nation, with both sides taking a “no holds barred” approach. As they say, “in a war, the first casualty is the truth.”

Nevertheless, we have a duty to inform ourselves to the best of our abilities. This is not some game when the Church itself is being persecuted. And the notion that “both sides are taking a no holds barred approach” and tut-tutting over it is, itself, an ideological position; an encouragement to relativism and, ultimately, to despair.

We either stand with what the Church says is truly non-negotiable or we don’t. And it’s wrong to try to confuse Catholics by equating abortion, infanticide, euthanasia and homosexual marriage, all inherent evils, with quibbles over such matters of prudential judgment as whether or not (as with the Ryan plan) food stamp funding ought to increase by 8% or 12%.

I’m not a Republican. I’m probably to the left of many when it comes to the TRULY poor (for whom neither party does anything notwithstanding one party’s false claim that it does) I have been a Democrat all my life and a party official. But I can’t support the party anymore, or its candidates. I remember when the party embraced abortion as its number one value. That’s when it left me. Ultimately, it lurched further and further to the left, to the point that JFK could not possibly be elected to any party post nowadays except perhaps in the Republican party, though he would probably be deemed too far to the “right” by most people who claim to be moderate Repubs today.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Massively off topic. There have been threads about whether the Church acted properly as regards Nazism and the Holocaust. One could start another one and not derail this one.

I don’t understand how this is off topic.

My fellow forum member said that it was wrong to say that German Catholics didn’t do enough to stand up to the many unCatholic policies of the Nazis.

I then quoted Blessed John Paul II and the German Bishops Conference stating that German Catholics didn’t do enough to stand up to the many unCatholic policies of the Nazis.

That doesn’t seem like a non sequitur, but a sequitur.

The main topic of this thread is whether Catholics who fully subscribe to political conservative ideology are in fact becoming dissenters from Catholic Social Doctrine in doing so. That then parallels what happened in Nazi Germany, when many or most Catholics set aside many of the teachings of the Church in order to be good citizens of the Reich, or good members of the Nazi Party.

If German Catholics in the 1930s and 1940s had, as a united group, said a firm “no” to the virulent racism and unjust warmaking of the Nazis, then so much suffering in Europe could have been avoided.

Likewise, if American Catholics in our time would be fully Catholic and not delete parts of the Caholicism to fit into the political conservative movement or into the political liberal movement, then things could get better in America, or stop going down the tubes.

That is the assertion, anyway. Thus, the connection seems to be very close, and not off topic at all.

 

[austenbosten]

I’m not a Republican. I’m probably to the left of many when it comes to the TRULY poor (for whom neither party does anything notwithstanding one party’s false claim that it does) I have been a Democrat all my life and a party official. But I can’t support the party anymore, or its candidates. I remember when the party embraced abortion as its number one value. That’s when it left me. Ultimately, it lurched further and further to the left, to the point that JFK could not possibly be elected to any party post nowadays except perhaps in the Republican party, though he would probably be deemed too far to the “right” by most people who claim to be moderate Repubs today.

“I didn’t leave the Democratic Party. The party left me.” - Ronald Reagan

If you join the Republican party, I will embrace you with open arms and if not…that’s okay too.
However I join in your sorrows that the Democrat Party has lost touch with the American people and American ideals. :sad_yes:

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t understand how this is off topic.

My fellow forum member said that it was wrong to say that German Catholics didn’t do enough to stand up to the many unCatholic policies of the Nazis.

I then quoted Blessed John Paul II and the German Bishops Conference stating that German Catholics didn’t do enough to stand up to the many unCatholic policies of the Nazis.

That doesn’t seem like a non sequitur, but a sequitur.

Have I missed something?

Well, for one thing that by 1938, when you say Catholics should have resisted Nazi persecution of Jews politically, doing so would get you into Dachau, and many were sent there for that very reason. It was too late. Nobody is being sent to prison in the U.S. now…or at least won’t be until Obama’s mandate is disobeyed by Catholic institutions. Then there will be people being sent to prison for resisting. That’s one big reason why the situations are not comparable. It’s still possible, politically, to resist by ousting Obama and his tribe from Washington. In 1938 it wasn’t possible to get rid of the Nazis by political action.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Declaring Bush a Marxist is an exaggeration.

I agree it was an exageration, just like those who call Obama a marxist are exagerating. Actually Bush and Obama are almost twins. Both have used the government to bail out the private sector, both have expanded the government’s role in healthcare, both have had unsuccessful government stimulus programs. The one difference is that Obama want’s to raise income tax rates on higher income earners. While one can certainly argue whether or not such a proposal is prudent, making such a proposal is not the same as calling rich people evil. If Obama really thought rich people were evil, would he be getting as much money as he does from Wall Street?

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Well, for one thing that by 1938, when you say Catholics should have resisted Nazi persecution of Jews politically, doing so would get you into Dachau, and many were sent there for that very reason. It was too late. Nobody is being sent to prison in the U.S. now…or at least won’t be until Obama’s mandate is disobeyed by Catholic institutions. Then there will be people being sent to prison for resisting. That’s one big reason why the situations are not comparable. It’s still possible, politically, to resist by ousting Obama and his tribe from Washington. In 1938 it wasn’t possible to get rid of the Nazis by political action.

If 90% of Catholics refused to fight in the unjust war that Hitler launched in 1939, the Nazis would have been done for.

They could not kill or arrest every Catholic in Germany. They would have killed several thousand, but soon the generals would have killed Hitler instead of continuing the killing of innocent Catholic Germans.

Hitler has a Gestapo and concentrations camps and so forth, but his security as leader depended on the support of most of the public.

That’s why they were so secretive about the direct killing of innocent Jewish civilians and others. If the German public and the German generals had know that Hitler was having civilians murdered, the generals and the entire officer corps of Germany would have immediately arrested and executed Hitler and all the rest of the top Nazis. Don’t you agree?

Even today, if we Catholics as a group all stopped paying taxes until abortion is made illegal, it would soon be made illegal. They could never imprison all of us. But, we all seem to be pretty content with a million abortion deaths every years, so nothing ever changes. We all seem to sleep pretty well at night. We watch our TV shows, play our bingo, shoot off our fireworks, eat our ice cream, and life (and death) goes on.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I agree it was an exageration, just like those who call Obama a marxist are exagerating. Actually Bush and Obama are almost twins. Both have used the government to bail out the private sector, both have expanded the government’s role in healthcare, both have had unsuccessful government stimulus programs. The one difference is that Obama want’s to raise income tax rates on higher income earners. While one can certainly argue whether or not such a proposal is prudent, making such a proposal is not the same as calling rich people evil. If Obama really thought rich people were evil, would he be getting as much money as he does from Wall Street?

Well said!

 

[Ridgerunner]

“I didn’t leave the Democratic Party. The party left me.” - Ronald Reagan

If you join the Republican party, I will embrace you with open arms and if not…that’s okay too.
However I join in your sorrows that the Democrat Party has lost touch with the American people and American ideals. :sad_yes:

I don’t become a Repub out of respect for the “Old Democrats” who were my political mentors and friends. Many of them are dead now, and those activists of my age group who are faithful Catholics are largely, like me, just “nothing at all” except Catholics.

Besides, I’m much too far to “the left” when it comes to the disabled needy, who are not treated well by anyone. Did you know that developmentally disabled people are dependent on private “food harvest” charities because this government is too cheap, and too busy subsidizing abortion to provide them with sufficient funds for adequate nutrition? It’s true.

Think about this for a minute. This administration actually gave wealthy people a tax credit to buy new cars they could have afforded anyway. And then they destroyed the “clunkers” upon which poorer people depend for transportation. How could they have been so heartless as to do that? How could they have failed to turn those “clunkers” over to the various state agencies that serve poor people? But they never even thought about it.

My very last act as a Democrat politico was to get equipped cars for police departments of threadbare small towns that couldn’t afford them. I cashed in some major favors to get that done. Maybe that’s why I take “Cash for Clunkers” so personally, and am so opposed to what the Democrat party has become.

 

[austenbosten]

I agree it was an exageration, just like those who call Obama a marxist are exagerating. Actually Bush and Obama are almost twins. Both have used the government to bail out the private sector, both have expanded the government’s role in healthcare, both have had unsuccessful government stimulus programs. The one difference is that Obama want’s to raise income tax rates on higher income earners. While one can certainly argue whether or not such a proposal is prudent, making such a proposal is not the same as calling rich people evil. If Obama really thought rich people were evil, would he be getting as much money as he does from Wall Street?

• Obama has declared that he believes every person has a “right” to health care. The Socialist Party USA believes every person has a “right” to health care.
• Obama believes that labor unions should be allowed to organize without a secret ballot. The Socialist Party USA calls for unions to be recognized without a secret ballot.The Socialist Party USA recognizes the “right” of adequate housing for everyone. Obama trained ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) workers to secure mortgages for unqualified people in sufficient numbers to collapse the housing and home-financing industries.
• The Socialist Party USA believes in open borders and six-months residency as the only requirement for U.S. citizenship. Obama marched with illegal aliens in Chicago in support of “comprehensive” immigration reform.
• The Socialist Party USA calls for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Obama says, “I will end this war,” with never a reference to “winning” or “victory.”
• The Socialist Party USA calls for the “unconditional disarmament” by the United States. Obama has promised to dramatically reduce defense spending
• The Socialist Party USA calls for a “livable guaranteed annual income.” Obama trained ACORN members to conduct “Living Wage” campaigns in cities around the country.
• The Socialist Party USA calls for a “steeply graduated” tax policy to redistribute wealth. Obama has promised to increase the tax burden on the rich to redistribute wealth to the poor. He revealed his philosophy when answering a question from Joe the NOT plumber, who complained that he was being taxed for his success. Obama said:
  
  “It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

The fact that BHO shares so much in common with the SPUSA, makes him a Marxist.

 

[austenbosten]

I don’t become a Repub out of respect for the “Old Democrats” who were my political mentors and friends. Many of them are dead now, and those activists of my age group who are faithful Catholics are largely, like me, just “nothing at all” except Catholics.

Besides, I’m much too far to “the left” when it comes to the disabled needy, who are not treated well by anyone. Did you know that developmentally disabled people are dependent on private “food harvest” charities because this government is too cheap, and too busy subsidizing abortion to provide them with sufficient funds for adequate nutrition? It’s true.

Think about this for a minute. This administration actually gave wealthy people a tax credit to buy new cars they could have afforded anyway. And then they destroyed the “clunkers” upon which poorer people depend for transportation. How could they have been so heartless as to do that? How could they have failed to turn those “clunkers” over to the various state agencies that serve poor people? But they never even thought about it.

My very last act as a Democrat politico was to get equipped cars for police departments of threadbare small towns that couldn’t afford them. I cashed in some major favors to get that done. Maybe that’s why I take “Cash for Clunkers” so personally, and am so opposed to what the Democrat party has become.

I’m a Republican and I don’t support making Mental Health be the first expense to get cut as many politicians (Both Democrats and Republicans) do. Remember it was George H.W. Bush who signed the ADA into law and it was his son George W Bush who signed the ADAAA into law.

I think you will find us Republicans aren’t the heartless Scrooges and Mr. Potters that the Left and the Democrat party tries to make us out to be.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If 90% of Catholics refused to fight in the unjust war that Hitler launched in 1939, the Nazis would have been done for.

They could not kill or arrest every Catholic in Germany. They would have killed several thousand, but soon the generals would have killed Hitler instead of continuing the killing of innocent Catholic Germans.

Hitler has a Gestapo and concentrations camps and so forth, but his security as leader depended on the support of most of the public.

That’s why they were so secretive about the direct killing of innocent Jewish civilians and others. If the German public and the German generals had know that Hitler was having civilians murdered, the generals and the entire officer corps of Germany would have immediate arrested and executed Hitler and all the rest of the top Nazis. Don’t you agree?

Even today, if we Catholics as a group all stopped paying taxes until abortion is made illegal, it would soon be made illegal. They could never imprison all of us. But, we all seem to be pretty content with a million abortion deaths every years, so nothing ever changes. We all seem to sleep pretty well at night. We watch our TV shows, play our bingo, shoot off our fireworks, eat our ice cream, and life (and death) goes on.

The Nazis DID kill thousands of resisters. A fair number of German officers DID try to kill Hitler, and more than once. His very Abwehr had Catholic agents in it who misinformed him and resisted. Adm Wilhelm Canaris foiled Hitler’s plot to Kidnap the Pope, and was, himself, executed. So was Von Von Stauffenberg and many others.

It is a big mistake to assume that people could have effectively resisted Nazism after about 1936, any more than it was possible to effectively resist Stalin at any time. It takes about 10% of any population to oppress the remaining 90% if the 10% are sufficiently armed and invested with total political power. Not more.

Catholics don’t all need to go to jail in order to end abortion in the U.S. If all Catholics simply refused to support any Democrat for a couple of election cycles, that would be sufficient. And it needs to start in 2012.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

• Obama has declared that he believes every person has a “right” to health care. The Socialist Party USA believes every person has a “right” to health care.

The Catholic Church has declared that every person has a right to health care. See:
old.usccb.org/healthcare/position.shtml

alternet.org/newsandviews/article/789527/bad_catholic%3A_the_pope_calls_for_guaranteed_healthcare_for_all_people,_santorum_attacks_healthcare_plans_for_the_poor/

• Obama believes that labor unions should be allowed to organize without a secret ballot. The Socialist Party USA calls for unions to be recognized without a secret ballot.The Socialist Party USA recognizes the “right” of adequate housing for everyone. Obama trained ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) workers to secure mortgages for unqualified people in sufficient numbers to collapse the housing and home-financing industries.

Catholic Social Doctrine is very pro-Labor Union. Solidarity, a labor union movement in Poland, was supported by Blessed John Paul II. That labor union movement brought down the whole evil Soviet Empire.

• The Socialist Party USA believes in open borders and six-months residency as the only requirement for U.S. citizenship. Obama marched with illegal aliens in Chicago in support of “comprehensive” immigration reform.

The Catholic Church has called for leniency for and acceptance of illegal immigrants. See:
usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm

• The Socialist Party USA calls for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Obama says, “I will end this war,” with never a reference to “winning” or “victory.”

Blessed Pope John Paul II said that to invade Iraq in 2003 would be, per Catholic doctrine applied to the facts of that pending war, an unjust war of aggression, and urged it not to happen.

• The Socialist Party USA calls for a “livable guaranteed annual income.” Obama trained ACORN members to conduct “Living Wage” campaigns in cities around the country.

Catholic Social Doctrine calls for a Just Wage to be set by government for heads of households. This is to allow the wife and mother to stay home. This is to keep families out of poverty. This is official Church doctrine.

SUMMARY: To me, all this shows why Catholics need to be Catholics, and not right wingers or left wingers. That’s what the opening post of this thread was all about. The opening post was a brief article by Dr. Stephen Krason, professor at the very orthodox Catholic institution known as the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Here we see just how incompatible Catholic Doctrine is with many elements of political conservative doctrine. That was Professor Krason’s point too.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m a Republican and I don’t support making Mental Health be the first expense to get cut as many politicians (Both Democrats and Republicans) do. Remember it was George H.W. Bush who signed the ADA into law and it was his son George W Bush who signed the ADAAA into law.

I think you will find us Republicans aren’t the heartless Scrooges and Mr. Potters that the Left and the Democrat party tries to make us out to be.

I never said you were, and I don’t think that. I thought I made that clear in my earlier posts. In my opinion, the present-day Repub party is a lot closer to what the Church teaches than are the Dems, as a general rule. A lot closer.

I do, however, have my particular criticisms of both parties when it comes to the poor who are unable to do anything to help themselves. And I think the teachings of the Church support me in that.

But I will add that I have not seen the Repubs advocate anything as heartless as “Cash for Clunkers” or making the utilities of the poor needlessly expensive just to please the greenies.

 

[austenbosten]

The Catholic Church has declared that he believes every person has a right to health care…and other stuff.

Wow what a way to completely change the subject. I wasn’t talking about the CC, I was talking about Obama being a Marxist.

Look if you think that being a Catholic means being a Communist, by all means go ahead and believe it, but I and many other Catholics will see your views as wrong.

SUMMARY: To me, all this shows why Catholics need to be Catholics, and not right wingers or left wingers. That’s what the opening post of this thread was all about.

No, what you are basically saying, is that all Catholics need to be pro-life Socialists.

Also I really take little weight with your words, seeing as you have in more or less words; condemned the entire Catholic Church for the Holocaust because they all didn’t rise up against Nazism and the Swiss Guard didn’t take on the German army.