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buffalo
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Would you support treatment to those seeking help?
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frobert
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Your sources are lying to you. You need to read other sources that give a fuller and more accurate picture.
Nicholas Cummings was a supporter of NARTH which promoted reparative therapy. Do you really think that someone who promotes a discredited therapy is unbiased?
FYI, today all major mental health organizations/associations in the US say that reparative therapy is unethical and several states have banned reparative therapy for minors.
Nicholas Cummings was a supporter of NARTH which promoted reparative therapy. Do you really think that someone who promotes a discredited therapy is unbiased?
FYI, today all major mental health organizations/associations in the US say that reparative therapy is unethical and several states have banned reparative therapy for minors.
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buffalo
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MPat
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Somehow the name of source (sources?) “National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force” does not inspire much confidence in its (their?) impartiality… And previously you seemed to imply that impartiality is important here.
Those are very different things.
Well, they do. By definition.
The only question is if those are the only mental disorders they have.
Of course they have rights. And the relevant right that is often denied to those poor people nowadays is the right to psychiatric help. Denial of which starts with supposedly “compassionate” refusal to acknowledge that they do need it.
Of course their very existence is not against God’s will. He did create them. Now, the existence of disorder is another matter. But then, it is not very different with any disorder of any kind.
Telling those poor people that they do need psychiatric help is one of the things that loving them should prompt us to do. After all, love is wanting good for another, and it would be good for them to receive psychiatric help.
On the other hand, saying that everything is fine might well be selfish, based on the cowardly wish to avoid conflict. Or sometimes even on greed (for example, when we get to the point when someone has to pay for surgery).
It is also like that for other mental disorders: giving another glass of vodka to an alcoholic is much easier than telling him that maybe he did have enough. But it is not the loving choice, even if one can try to lie to oneself that it is “compassionate”, “not hurting his feelings” etc.
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frobert
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Please share your definition of mental disorder?
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Prodigal_Son
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Do you think that all same-sex attraction is a mental disorder, in the psychological sense of the term? Surely it is a moral disorder, insofar as it is a disposition to do morally wrong things. But the desire to lie, or the desire to cheat, or the desire to curse someone, is also a moral disorder. Do you have reason to believe that the attraction to the same sex is relevantly different from those things? Or do you think of those things as psychological disorders, too?
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frobert
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Aren’t you curious about what his definition of mental disorder is? I have interacted with at least 8 people on here who are celebrate SSA, I would like to know why MPat is saying they have a mental disorder. If MPat is as misinformed as I believe he is we can help correct that.MPat:
Do you think that all same-sex attraction is a mental disorder, in the psychological sense of the term? Surely it is a moral disorder, insofar as it is a disposition to do morally wrong things. But the desire to lie, or the desire to cheat, or the desire to curse someone, is also a moral disorder. Do you have reason to believe that the attraction to the same sex is relevantly different from those things? Or do you think of those things as psychological disorders, too?
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MPat
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Somewhat informally - when something that is mental (thoughts, emotions etc.) is disordered, that is, wrong, consistently wrong, not how it should be given the (human) nature, even after taking into account the fact that it is fallen.
There is “pathological lying” or “mythomania”, there is “kleptomania” (pathological stealing), there is “coprolalia” (pathological cursing).
So, just because there is a sin and a temptation does not mean that there can’t be an associated mental disorder as well.
I’m afraid that by the time we need a special term for condition, we are no longer dealing with temptations “normal” for fallen human nature.
Probably you mean “celibate”, not “celebrate”.
And I get an impression that you count someone as having a “mental disorder” when we get close to the point where that “someone” has to be locked into an asylum and stay there. On the other hand, I’m counting much milder forms and disorders taken under control (but not completely treated) as well.
So, let’s take a clearer example - alcoholism. It is clear that alcoholism is a mental disorder, and that it is not simply intemperance (which exists as well).
And alcoholism can be taken under control. I can easily think of an example (among people I know) where an alcoholic was able to take alcoholism under control for a long period of time, several times. Unfortunately, as “several times” hints, the disorder itself, while taken under control, is still there. And one has to be extra careful, lest it resurfaces again. For, unfortunately, it looks like we do not know how to treat most mental disorders completely.
And I do not see what is going be significantly different with celibate people suffering from self-sex attraction. The disorder is taken under control, it is not severe, but it is still there, it hasn’t been completely treated (otherwise you would call them “celibate former SSA”). They still have to be extra careful. It is still a cross.
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theCardinalbird
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A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of “gender dysphoria.” Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care.
The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as “gender identity disorder.”
www.apa.org
I can’t understand this. Are they saying reassignment surgery is a good thing?
For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of “gender dysphoria.” Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care.
The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as “gender identity disorder.”
Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression
Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...
www.apa.org
I can’t understand this. Are they saying reassignment surgery is a good thing?
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buffalo
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We cannot forget the fact original sin has left us with concupiscence that EVERY human has to overcome. Desires, good and bad come into play. We have to overcome them.
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buffalo
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No way. The suicide rate foes way up after surgery. And now we are learning that many want to back to what they were, or go back to what they had before surgery.
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Bruised_Reed
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buffalo
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Let’s start here : Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
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theCardinalbird
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That’s sad that the suicide rate is high. I accidentally liked your post about it. I can’t unlike it. I think their is another bug on here
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buffalo
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No doubt some here will claim that it is because society ostracizes them, but the evidence shows it is a problem within themselves.
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Bruised_Reed
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Did you even read the study? It doesn’t support what you claim.
Again, the reasons are far more complex if you read that study and other resources.that don’t misinterpret the research.
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buffalo
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I posted - let’s start here. What idid you gather from the link I posted?
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Bruised_Reed
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I’m not good with quick summaries, especially when it a summary of a summary of a metastudy, but this addresses your comment about society ostracizing them. It’s not wider society it’s friends and family. I’ve seen this with the transgender people I know. What hurts the most is family not accepting them; they are ostracized or if they are not completely shunned, members of the family do not use the transgendered person’s preferred name or pronouns. Finding community elsewhere, creating a family out of that community but it’s doesn’t totally make up when it’s mom, dad or siblings.
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buffalo
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me -
you - Wrong.
The entire point I was making is the suicide rates are much higher for transgendered. Yes or No.
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No way. The suicide rate foes way up after surgery. And now we are learning that many want to back to what they were, or go back to what they had before surgery.The entire point I was making is the suicide rates are much higher for transgendered. Yes or No.
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Bruised_Reed
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Yes, it is higher, however, the claim of yours that I was specifically replying to was that the suicide rate goes up after surgery. My reply to that was an interview with a researcher whose research is misrepresented to fit an anti-transgender agenda. Many anti-LGBTQ+ members on this forum have repeated the same thing not realizing it is false. I’ve posted this on the “old” forum and now again.
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