Rebuttals for Gender Theory

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The significantly higher suicide rate for transgendered persons gives us some reason to believe that transgenderism is comorbid with certain mental illnesses, which may give us reason to believe that it is caused by one or more mental illnesses. I think it is probably best to think of transgenderism as a symptom, however, not the mental illness itself. And whether people can be transgendered without being mentally ill at all is a question I am not qualified to answer. I have certainly seen transgendered people that did not appear mentally ill.
 
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Joe1 said:
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
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Joe,

I can understand your concerns with the DSM, You have to keep in mind that the DSM is not written for the lay person, and even many mental health professionals outside of psychiatry and clinical psychology have negligible understanding of the DSM and that it is much more than a compilation of diagnostic menus.

For example, while the DSM has “mental disorders” in its title, this does not therefore mean that the conditions it lists are “all in the mind” or that these illnesses are best treated with counseling or psychotherapy. Rather, the DSM-5 includes a number of conditions with a clearly physical component such as in the case of gender dysphoria. (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
Joe1 said:
I can’t understand this. Are they saying reassignment surgery is a good thing?
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As an organization, the APA is not making a value judgement about reassignment surgery which is a personal and family decision. What they do recommend is that:
It is helpful to consult with mental health and medical professionals familiar with gender issues in children to decide how to best address these concerns. It is not helpful to force the child to act in a more gender-conforming way. Peer support from other parents of gender-nonconforming children may also be helpful.
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MPat said:
Please share your definition of mental disorder?

Somewhat informally - when something that is mental (thoughts, emotions etc.) is disordered, that is, wrong, consistently wrong, not how it should be given the (human) nature, even after taking into account the fact that it is fallen.
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Thank you for being honest.
frobert said:
don’t tell LGBT and transgendered people that they have mental disorders

Well, they do. By definition.

Please share your definition of mental disorder?
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If your definition of mental health informal, it does not follow that transgendered people have mental disorders by definitions. I think you can work out the logic.
MPat said:
And I get an impression that you count someone as having a “mental disorder” when we get close to the point where that “someone” has to be locked into an asylum and stay there
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Your impression is wrong.
MPat said:
So, let’s take a clearer example - alcoholism. It is clear that alcoholism is a mental disorder, and that it is not simply intemperance (which exists as well).
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Your example fails. There are eleven symptoms of “alcohol use disorder” while there are no physical symptoms of gender dysphoria and none for SSA.

If you want to learn more about mental health disorders you can do so here: DSM V
 
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MPat said:
Somewhat informally - when something that is mental (thoughts, emotions etc.) is disordered, that is, wrong, consistently wrong, not how it should be given the (human) nature, even after taking into account the fact that it is fallen.
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How is that distinguished from a moral disorder? Surely one could have a temptation to sin without having a moral disorder, no? Do you believe the terms “moral disorder” and “psychological disorder” to mean exactly the same thing?

I would encourage you to read the article “Against Heterosexuality”, by Michael Hannon. It is not what it sounds like. Link here:

 
Prodigal_Son said:
I would encourage you to read the article “Against Heterosexuality”, by Michael Hannon. It is not what it sounds like
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Interesting reframing of “same sex attraction does not exist.”

I am impressed on how the author condemns gay people for ruining straight male friendship, veering abruptly away from his main point to note that:
To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.
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frobert said:
I am impressed on how the author condemns gay people for ruining straight male friendship…
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I don’t recall him blaming gay people for that, at all. Indeed, his point is that sexual tension was never something that ordinary men should have been shocked to find in their friendships. The problem isn’t “gay people”; the problem is the idea that gay people are somehow different from other people. This idea began when we said that homosexuality was a perversion, and it continues when we call homosexuality an orientation. Ordinary men don’t want to be told they have a perversion or that they are part of some special orientation. The solution would be just to say that some people sometimes want sex with people of the same sex, and big whoop.
 
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Prodigal_Son said:
The problem isn’t “gay people”; the problem is the idea that gay people are somehow different from other people.
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Does your ssa make you different from other people? I don’t think I am different. I don’t believe my friends think I am different, perhaps I should ask them.
Prodigal_Son said:
The solution would be just to say that some people sometimes want sex with people of the same sex, and big whoop.
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I am all for that, but people are going to eventually question why they like gay sex.
 
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frobert said:
Does your ssa make you different from other people? I don’t think I am different. I don’t believe my friends think I am different, perhaps I should ask them.
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This was my point. I don’t think people with SSA are in any way fundamentally different.
frobert said:
I am all for that, but people are going to eventually question why they like gay sex.
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Isn’t this like asking why some people like pistachios? Or, if you like, why some people like to use heroin?
 
frobert said:
I am impressed on how the author condemns gay people for ruining straight male friendship, veering abruptly away from his main point to note that:

To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.
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I do believe it was the sexual revolution that had a play in this. Any strong intimacy between men before the sexual revolution was not labeled as gay. Rather it was normal for men to be really close with each other (non sexual of course). The sexual revolution changed that. Eros became the prevalent love in our society and as a result, any expression of love between two men was poisoned with the idea that they wanted to have intercourse. Resulting in a “wall” between men in terms of affection which destroyed friendships. In fact, the sexual revolution greatly affected same sex attracted youth because of lack of touch.
 
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Joe1 said:
In fact, the sexual revolution greatly affected same sex attracted youth because of lack of touch.
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This reminds me of a near and dear SSA friend of mine, who describes how his stepfather never touched him at all – not because he didn’t want to, but because he was afraid of people perceiving him as abusive or something.

😥
 
Prodigal_Son said:
This reminds me of a near and dear SSA friend of mine, who describes how his stepfather never touched him at all – not because he didn’t want to, but because he was afraid of people perceiving him as abusive or something.

😥
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That’s horrible! :cry:

Platonic touch really madders but our society shows that it’s weak to show affection. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons why men become same sex attracted. Because men are told to suppress affection between each other they begin to have a longing for intimacy, where they want affection, and will take it, any way they can. Because society is so sexualized they learned how to sexualize their feelings and sodomy became prevalent.

After all, the spike of Homosexual men in the 20th-21st century could have been influenced by the sexual revolution
 
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Prodigal_Son said:
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frobert:
Does your ssa make you different from other people? I don’t think I am different. I don’t believe my friends think I am different, perhaps I should ask them.
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This was my point. I don’t think people with SSA are in any way fundamentally different.
frobert said:
I am all for that, but people are going to eventually question why they like gay sex.
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Isn’t this like asking why some people like pistachios? Or, if you like, why some people like to use heroin?
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You hit upon the crux of the matter.

There is no pistachio discrimination and there are laws against heroine use but no one can deny discrimination against gays.

First Things is magazine few people have heard of but those who have know it is anti-gay. If First Things can make the case that homosexuals don’t exist then there is no need for gay rights.

Here are a few civil right barriers.
  1. Workplace discrimination
  2. Housing discrimination
  3. Acceptance in sports, politics, entertainment, business and more
  4. Health risks, and education about how to lower them
  5. Restrictions on gay men giving blood
The last irks me, because I can’t give blood even though I have been in a monogamous relationship for over two decades.
 
frobert said:
There is no pistachio discrimination and there are laws against heroine use but no one can deny discrimination against gays.
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Surely not. But I wouldn’t describe marriage laws under that description. And people can be discriminated against for categories that are socially constructed, as homosexuality is.
frobert said:
First Things is magazine few people have heard of but those who have know it is anti-gay. If First Things can make the case that homosexuals don’t exist then there is no need for gay rights.
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It is anti-gay? News to me. First Things has provided a forum for the Spiritual Friendship movement, and consistently supported it. And Hannon’s article was largely supported by that movement of gay Christians.
 
Prodigal_Son said:
First Things is magazine few people have heard of but those who have know it is anti-gay. If First Things can make the case that homosexuals don’t exist then there is no need for gay rights.

It is anti-gay? News to me. First Things has provided a forum for the Spiritual Friendship movement, and consistently supported it. And Hannon’s article was largely supported by that movement of gay Christians.
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I am glad to hear that First Things served as positive support for you and hope it will continue to do so. Those of us who see the magazine as anti-gay have a different perspective.
 
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Grossly misinformed as usual. A few undefined radicals do not speak for the majority of gays. I am sure I can find numerous ultra right Christians whom you would not want to associate with.

The worse part of the new format is no ignore button.
 
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