Receive Communion standing or kneeling?

[Crusader]

JNB:

Crusader, I decide to follow Rome, not you. The 3 letters from the CDW have made their position clear on the matter of kneeling for communion. What they say has weight, what you say Crusader has no weight what so ever. I really think you should consider your conduct on these boards Crusader, since you seem to get into these arguements quite often.

Wrong. You are following your own prideful notions, rather than the Church. Here is what YOU hear:

“The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

Here is what you should be hearing:

"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

It is possible that proper catechesis might indeed allow you to put the Church ahead of your personal desires…

I honestly don’t know if you really don’t understand what was written, or if you are purposely spinning the language. Either way, you position is wrong.

 

[Crusader]

There is a young bearded fellow (probably an EWTN employee) who typically attends the daily EWTN Mass. He was typically the last to receive communion and he did so on his knees. Very reverent to say the least.

After the new GIRM was approved he began to bow his head (not genuflect) and receive standing, as the Church directs. It struck me just how obedient this man is to the Holy Father. By the looks of him I would guess he preferred kneeling, but he was able to put his pride to the side so he could show his obedience to the Church.

This man was also lucky to be the recipient of great catechesis as well I’m sure…

Absolutely outstanding…

 

[JNB]

Mysty101:

Nobody denied anything about the letters. Will you respond about the authority given to the USCCB by the Pope?

SuZ

This is a response to crusader, mysty and otm. These 3 letters were from Rome, again they came from the Council of Devine Worship, and they were issued because of disputes/questions over the new GIRM that Rome approved for the US in late 2001. The CDW HAS the full authority of Rome. The CDW is brought in to clearify disputes, and I posted what the CDW issued. The CDW has the authority to issue clearifications to end disputes, and all 3 of you read what that said. Again, the CDW ruling came AFTER the US GIRM was approved in late 2001. If I am wrong otm, mysty and otm, then the CDW is in error. Are all 3 of you prepared to say the CDW, headed up by a cardinal is in error?

Also the USCCB has NO authority, the Bishop is the one who has the authority. Lastly this is to otm, again, what part ovf the letter from the CDW that those who kneel are not to be considered dis obidient nor imposed upon do you not understand. I await your evidence that says otherwise.

 

[JNB]

Crusader:

There is a young bearded fellow (probably an EWTN employee) who typically attends the daily EWTN Mass. He was typically the last to receive communion and he did so on his knees. Very reverent to say the least.

After the new GIRM was approved he began to bow his head (not genuflect) and receive standing, as the Church directs. It struck me just how obedient this man is to the Holy Father. By the looks of him I would guess he preferred kneeling, but he was able to put his pride to the side so he could show his obedience to the Church.

This man was also lucky to be the recipient of great catechesis as well I’m sure…

Absolutely outstanding…

Awnser me this, why is it at the monestary associated with EWTN in Alabama that reception of communion is kneeling at the altar rail?

 

[deogratias]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deogratias
And at the first communion, most of the recepients were probably reclining or sitting as was the custom at the time.

Response from Albert
And for the first 300 years, Masses were celebrated underground next to dead bodies. Does that mean we should do the same?

For an obviously well educated man who has a great command of the English Language, I do see a flaw in your reading ability. Show me where I said we should do it this way. I stated a simple Truth. Period.

 

[oat_soda]

does anyone know why they changed the norm of recieving the eucharist from kneeling to standing in the roman rite?? is this an unavoidable consequence of removing the altar rails?? and is the removal of the altar rails a result of blurring the distinction between the priesthood of the faithful and magesterial?? and is this all a result having the priest facing the people during the liturgy of the eucharist??

 

[deogratias]

And in those very old missions the door were roughly only 4 or 5 feet high cuz everyone was short

Nope - the doors were not at the missions I have visited in Arizona.

My point which you seem not to get is that historically there were many ways in which Latria was given historically and it was not always kneeling.

You appear to always want to argue and to win - regardless of whom you post to - where is your humility or your charity? If you are indeed happy with your chosen position, why come and post in this forum rather than one of the many forums and lists for those who think like you - why do you express so much anger at Mother Church, the Pope and the Bishops. If your way is the right way, go away and forget about us.

I wish you would just go write some more poetry with beauty, tend the goats, or do something other than spend so much time dominating these forum threads - our faith is strong, you won’t shake it with your intellectualizing and false truths.

 

[albert_cipriani]

deogratias:

You appear to always want to argue and to win - regardless of whom you post to - where is your humility or your charity? … why do you express so much anger at Mother Church, the Pope and the Bishops. If your way is the right way, go away and forget about us. I wish you would just go…

Dear Deogratias,

Just yesterday, in response to my response to you, you told me to “butt out.”

Your words today confirm that those two words are still operative. So once again, I will simply say: As you wish, Goodbye, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[katolik]

otm:

I am well aware of the letters. Perhaps a better understanding of Law would help.

Letters are advisory and can interpret passages which are vague. But a letter does not overrule a law. An ammendment to a law can overrule a law in part, but a letter is not an ammendment. The letter is mere dicta where it contradicts an obvious passage of law.

The passage of law states that those kneeling are “to be counseled”. There is no meaning to the term “to be counseled” if there is no violation of the law about which to counsel.

The letter stating that people kneeling in direct defiance of the norm of standing may be very nice; it may be very kind; it might even be pious. But it does not make the norm to not be the norm; it does not make the norm optional; it does not modify the norm.

The norm is standing. Kneeling is contrary to the norm, which is another way of saying “disobedient”.

Kneeling is evil and so it is blotted out of Mass? That is the logic used for liturgical abuses to be ended. So how in itself would kneeling be evil, so that it would be considered disobiedient?

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

Mysty101:

Voice,
How do you feel about this instruction from the USCCB? (I know I am repeating, but perhaps Voice did not see it)
I am trying to understand why someone would place their own thoughts over those of their Bishop, (remember the Pope did approve the Bishops’ decision)

SuZ

First off, I’m not blind. I respond by this; “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me” (Rom. 14:11, Is 45:23). Now I want to know why the Bishops would want to put their own thoughts over that of which is Commanded?

I respect the Bishops, but there are far more problems in the Mass and diocese than hanging the folks who kneel.

Honestly, 98% of folks at the Mass I attend don’t do ANYTHING to acknowldge Christ other than Amen; be it bow, genuflect or kneel before receiving. They just stand, say Amen and open up their mouths or reach out their palms. Don’t hang me for showing revelance while others act as if they are a line at Disney getting ready to ride Space Mountain.

 

[Mysty101]

I respect the Bishops, but there are far more problems in the Mass and diocese than hanging the folks who kneel.

Please do not get angry I do respect your thoughts, but I have realized that it is far less stressful to follow the guidance of lawful authority.

OK you say you respect the Bishops. They have set their norms, which have been approved and allowed you to act otherwise, so what is it that you want?

You are swimming upstream, and angry because the majority will not see your point?

This is from RS, April 2004

**

90.

“The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms.”176

From the US Adaptations
**

Distribution of Holy Communion

**
This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:
The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel.**** Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

SuZ**

 

[Mysty101]

The norm is standing. Kneeling is contrary to the norm, which is another way of saying “disobedient”.

OTM I believe we were told that they cannot be called disobedient, Perhaps it would be better not to use that word. I do understand someone who has the desire to kneel or genuflect, but would hope that they are also practical and considerate of the safety of others. I once had my 86 year old mom who has very poor eyesight with me at Mass. We have one lovely lady who refuses to walk back down the side aisle and walks against traffic in the middle aisle. As she was trying to come down the aisle, a man who wanted to genuflect, but needed the pew for support, genuflected right in front of her, and my poor mom almost fell over the 2 of them.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

oat soda:

does anyone know why they changed the norm of recieving the eucharist from kneeling to standing in the roman rite?? is this an unavoidable consequence of removing the altar rails?? and is the removal of the altar rails a result of blurring the distinction between the priesthood of the faithful and magesterial?? and is this all a result having the priest facing the people during the liturgy of the eucharist??

I’m not sure of the theological reasons, but the shortage of priests has a lot to do with it. With only one priest, it is far more logical for the people to come to him than for him to walk back and forth behind the rail.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

JNB:

Awnser me this, why is it at the monestary associated with EWTN in Alabama that reception of communion is kneeling at the altar rail?

I have also been to a monestary where Communion was distributed at a rail. It was a small Chapel, with only one Mass and a congregation of 50 or so people. This is a different situation. When you have larger congregations, and many Masses, unfortunately you need to be careful of the time needed to distribute Holy Communion.

SuZ

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

SuZ, I’m not the one making a big deal out of it. My dad spoke to the priest about this and other issues in our diocese. He said it’s OK to kneel and he was going to thank me after Mass for showing revelance while others do nothing. Except that I all ready left the church after Mass and he didn’t have the opportunity to do so. Not that I wanted thanks, as I was giving thanks to God by humbling myself and that is what matters.

 

[Mysty101]

I’m not the one making a big deal out of it.

I would say

First off, I’m not blind. I respond by this; “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me” (Rom. 14:11, Is 45:23). Now I want to know why the Bishops would want to put their own thoughts over that of which is Commanded?

Especially in red is making a pretty big deal. Of course the knee should bend, but not when you are instructed otherwise.

The bishops decide what they feel would be pastorally best for the congregation in their conference. They send their adaptations to Rome. The adaptations are approved, but some people feel they want to do things differently.

Just because this iis allowed, it does not mean it is better than the norm.
"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

We are told not to refer to those who will not follow the norm as disobedient, but perhaps that is because they are given the benefit of the doubt and thinking perhaps they do not know the norm.

Even if it is not disobedient, it is certainly not in a Spirit of unity with the congregation and the Bishops.

SuZ

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

So, tell me…we talked about me for long enough and I won’t change. Do as you wish, I have confidence through the Bible and my priest. I presume you are female? Correct me if I’m wrong. Do you cover your head in prayer? If not, why? Doesn’t the Bible say to do so, otherwise the female disgraces her head through the writings of St. Paul?

 

[Mysty101]

Voice_Of_Reason:

So, tell me…we talked about me for long enough and I won’t change. Do as you wish, I have confidence through the Bible and my priest. I presume you are female? Correct me if I’m wrong. Do you cover your head in prayer? If not, why? Doesn’t the Bible say to do so, otherwise the female disgraces her head through the writings of St. Paul?

No, I do not cover my head, nor do I keep the Sabath on Saturday.

As long as we are quoting the Bible

**

**Matthew 16
**

18And I tell you that you are Peter,1] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades2] will not overcome it.3] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be5] loosed in heaven." **
I can understand you priest appreciating your respect, but does he instruct the congregation about the norms? Has he made certain that his Parish is or will be in compliance with RS? I believe many US dioceses have set Advent as the time of compliance—making sure all necessary parties are instructed. He really should show support for his bishop
SuZ

 

[bear06]

Here’s an article from Fr. Fessio’s publication. He’s very faithful to Rome for anyone who might be worried.

adoremus.org/1002Kneeling.html

 

[larryo]

Minerva:

I would imagine the reasons for the norm are that kneeling disrupts the flow of the communion line. If churches still had altar rails, kneeling wouldn’t be as much of a problem. Frankly I wish they’d bring back altar rails and make kneeling the norm again. There’s too little reverence for the Eucharist among Catholics these days.

Amen!