Received a rose but specific request rejected?

[Sirach2]

I really want to help him and our parish. In addition, I would like to have more than just friendly acquaintance status with him.

Would you be able to explain what “more than” just a friendly acquaintance means? You say it is to “help him and our parish.” Yet you admit to being involved in quite a number of areas of service, well beyond the norm for most parishioners.

How much MORE could you do, if in fact this priest was “more than just friendly?” What do you envision a deeper friendship to involve where you’re concerned? Social functions like a lunch together? Phone calls? More appointments to other areas of service? Recognition with a specific title, such as Parish (insert name)?

It is your sentence bolded above that is causing the most concern, so maybe if you start with your idea of what it means, that would be helpful.

 

[houston1]

Would you be able to explain what “more than” just a friendly acquaintance means? You say it is to “help him and our parish.” Yet you admit to being involved in quite a number of areas of service, well beyond the norm for most parishioners.

How much MORE could you do, if in fact this priest was “more than just friendly?” What do you envision a deeper friendship to involve where you’re concerned? Social functions like a lunch together? Phone calls? More appointments to other areas of service? Recognition with a specific title, such as Parish (insert name)?

It is your sentence bolded above that is causing the most concern, so maybe if you start with your idea of what it means, that would be helpful.

Sirach2,

Thank you for being patient with me. I guess that sounds a little suspicious. . . . my bad on choice of words. This is just it . . . . I am not certain what it is. I just know that whatever it is has not yet come to fruition. That is why I am in the Dark Night and frequently question myself, my motives, becoming discouraged thinking that I am a complete fool. Your questioning me is an example of something that tempts me to discouragement. However, since I’ve been at this for over two years, I’ve grown accustomed to others not understanding and my inability to adequately express what I am feeling, i.e., I am caught between heaven and earth which I liken to what I believe for me is the passive night of spirit. I am alone with nothing to hold onto but my pure faith in God to get me through this.

One thing for sure is that I have no intentions on having a friendship where I talk personally on the phone with him, meet up for lunch, or anything like I would do with my lady friends. I do not even desire that kind of relationship with this priest. It’s all about God and doing work for God . . . . perhaps cooperatively with this priest. Since my soon-to-be pastor has tremendous influence over parish matters, having his engagement and cooperation is necessary to encourage other parishioners to get involved: kind of a top down approach.

On what I mean by friendship, I am thinking something along the lines of, e.g., St. Francis de Sales and St. Jane de Chantal, or St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila, or St. Francis of Assisi and St. Clare of Assisi, or St. Catherine of Siena and Pope Gregory . . . these are just examples. I am open to what this would be. I will know it when I see it.

Thanks again. I hope this helps some. I would appreciate your advice. Again, I cannot help that I feel that something is missing. No matter what I do and how much I pray . . . this is ever present on my mind.

houston1

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach2,
On what I mean by friendship, I am thinking something along the lines of, e.g., St. Francis de Sales and St. Jane de Chantal, or St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila, or St. Francis of Assisi and St. Clare of Assisi, or St. Catherine of Siena and Pope Gregory . . . these are just examples. I am open to what this would be. I will know it when I see it.

It sounds like a desire for spiritual friendship in the Spirit. For that kind of relationship, there needs to be a drawing on the part of God to both persons for His greater honor and glory. With each of the saints you mention, the communications centered on holiness of life in response to a vocational call by God.

St. Teresa of Avila and St. John both founded religious orders, and she appointed St. John as Confessor to her nuns.
Same with Clare and Francis. Both were founders of orders, and if they communicated, it would have been on the best means to establish and maintain the pure spirituality of each.
St. Catherine founded the lay apostolate in Dominican spirituality and was herself a member of the Third Order.
St. Jane founded the Visitations along with the spiritual advice and support of St. Francis de Sales in drawing up the Constitutions.

In all of these saints, their “friendship” was totally spiritual. Since you are already involved in many various ministries within your church, and have a primary vocation to marriage, I don’t see any value in thinking a more special friendship with this priest would open a door to doing anything more than you already are involved with. Keep in mind that he must keep vigilance on his own temptations. I know a priest in my area that absolutely will not open a door to anything that would jeopardize his primary vocation and he prudently keeps women at a distance … not to be cold, but alert to satan’s wiles in that regard.

I think it is best to just let God be God and do the leading. If anything is to develop for His honor and glory, He will be the one to initiate it. You should not have to strive so hard to “make it happen.” (Including asking the advice of your husband) This suggests to me that you are not abandoned to His holy Will, since you do not have peace.

I know this is hard to hear, Houston, but these thoughts I share will hopefully help you toward greater discernment. Is this not what a spiritual director does? I’m having difficulty understanding how your SD approves of this and is not posing these same types of questions to help you examine your underlying motives.

 

[houston1]

Sirach2,

Again, thank you for your taking time to answer my post. I am not sure why you feel you should caution me so vigorously as you are and why you are questioning the judgment of my SD. Is it possible that perhaps the desire that I have is from God? Or, can you conclusively say that the desire is not from God? Please say so if you feel this adamantly. If you do, may I give you a call to discuss this more thoroughly so that you have all the facts on which to base your judgment? I am having trouble detailing everything in my post.

My SD is a priest who is 68 years old and has been a priest for over 40 years and has significant experience in being a pastor of a parish. Yes, it is interesting that he hasn’t conclusively rejected that my desire to be “friends” with my soon-to-be-pastor is from God. In fact, a week ago he considered the possibility that my desire may be for the benefit of my soon-to-be-pastor and not as much for me. We are still discerning . . . he is keeping an open mind and so am I.

On your explanations on the examples of the spiritual relationships above, very good stuff. Thank you. Please also consider Priscilla and Aquila, the married couple who helped St. Paul in the early church. Who is to say that this desire will not also involve my husband? Also, consider Blessed Maria Taigi, a wife, mother, and mystic. Her husband went along with her particular call from God although he, himself, did not understand. She often consulted with the Cardinal and had numerous dealings with priests. Here is the link to information on Blessed Maria Taigi.

mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/12/blessed-anna-maria-taigi-wife-mother.html

These are just two examples to show that “all things are possible with God” (Mt. 19:26). And, even if I could not note an example . . . does that make the operative word, all, have any less value? As far as being abandoned to God’s will, I certainly want to be and hope that I am. If I am not, I ask God to grant me the grace to be. In any case, He will not reject anyone who comes to Him (Jn. 6:37).

As for your saying that I do not have peace, perhaps I have been unclear. There is a difference between peace and suffering. I have peace when I conclude that my desire is from God and lose peace when I conclude that I am being deceived by the enemy.

In addition, as best as I can, I have sought the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Therese, St. John of the Cross, among others on prayer on this matter. I’ve also studied and employed the spiritual discernment rules of St. Ignatius of Loyola. Here is one of his rules which you likely already know. I quote only the second rule although I can also quote the rules which discuss how the evil spirit can come as an angel of light. In any case, the evil spirit cannot counterfeit peace. The second rule discusses the propositions of the evil spirit:

“The second: In the persons who are going on intensely cleansing their sins and rising from good to better in the service of God our Lord, it is the method contrary to that in the first Rule, for then it is the way of the evil spirit to bite, sadden and put obstacles, disquieting with false reasons, that one may not go on; and it is proper to the good to give courage and strength, consolations, tears, inspirations and quiet, easing, and putting away all obstacles, that one may go on in well doing.”

When I consider the cautions and objections that you mention in your responses, I am disquieted and saddened, losing hope in God. However, when I reject these considerations as inapplicable to me, I suddenly resume my peaceful state again. Am I missing something?

In addition, note that all the saints faced obstacles and experienced great suffering in responding to their particular call from God. Consider the following quote from St. Faustina taken from par. 270 of her diary.

“True works of God always meet opposition and are marked by suffering.”

Lastly, on my consulting my husband, my discussion with him was related to concerns that arose from the pastoral council meetings which I have attended. I think it is always prudent for a husband and wife to communicate their affairs with each other. This also avoids impropriety on my part and possible jealousy on the part of my husband. My wanting to use persuasive language in my email I thought was prudent as well. Even Jesus spoke a parable commending the dishonest steward for acting prudently saying, “For the children of this world are more prudent in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light" (Lk. 16:8).

Thank you again for taking your time to respond to my posts.

houston1

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach2,

“The second: In the persons who are going on intensely cleansing their sins and rising from good to better in the service of God our Lord, it is the method contrary to that in the first Rule, for then it is the way of the evil spirit to bite, sadden and put obstacles, disquieting with false reasons, that one may not go on; and it is proper to the good to give courage and strength, consolations, tears, inspirations and quiet, easing, and putting away all obstacles, that one may go on in well doing.”

When I consider the cautions and objections that you mention in your responses, I am disquieted and saddened, losing hope in God. However, when I reject these considerations as inapplicable to me, I suddenly resume my peaceful state again. Am I missing something?

No. You are attributing my posts to the work of the evil spirit, so it seems well and good for me to depart. One last word, your pastor hasn’t opened a door for you to become parish pastoral leader, or whatever it is you desire. Until he does, and IF he does, all of this disquiet is not of God, but more of the human spirit, desiring more than God or your pastor is willing to bestow in your path. Equating the sufferings of St. Faustina who had an official mission from God, is not even in the ballpark here, since you do not have a definite calling from either God or your pastor. My last word.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Dear friend,

People have seen prayers answered years later. Perhaps God, Little Flower, answered your prayer and you missed it. Maybe you need spiritual outlook glasses with thicker lenses… God reads the heart and mind when we pray, and gives us what we truly need, not always what we want. If God can combine them fine. God prods and provokes us here too, to test us to see if we will remain faithful to Him and Love Him. There are infinities of reasons for anything and everything. Don’t question God, just trust Him. You may pray for something, and someone else prays for another thing. A clash can occur between prayers, and God must satisfy all. God is the unknown unknowable. Just trust Him. Hope this helps.

 

[houston1]

No. You are attributing my posts to the work of the evil spirit, so it seems well and good for me to depart. One last word, your pastor hasn’t opened a door for you to become parish pastoral leader, or whatever it is you desire. Until he does, and IF he does, all of this disquiet is not of God, but more of the human spirit, desiring more than God or your pastor is willing to bestow in your path. Equating the sufferings of St. Faustina who had an official mission from God, is not even in the ballpark here, since you do not have a definite calling from either God or your pastor. My last word.

Sirach2,

Please do not let this exchange end this way. . . . I hope that you do not believe that I think you are evil or you have bad intentions. What I meant to convey is how reading your post affected my spirit, i.e., via the Ignatian rules. I cannot deny that reading it brought disorder to my thoughts. I am honestly trying to discern God’s will. My response to your post was my analyzing how your words affected my spirit. I agree that all this disquiet is not from God. That was never the question.

I mentioned my particular situation as an example of the Dark Nights of St. John of the Cross since I find examples very helpful and thought it would be helpful for the other CAF members.

In responding to my posts, the other CAF members wisely kept their comments at bay since they, likely, perceived that they neither knew or could know everything about some random poster, houston1. In one case, in particular, a poster offered a concern and then left it at that so that I could ponder it without conclusively stating that my desire was not from God. Now, you are also conclusively implying that I have no official mission from God. How can you be certain of this? Also, how much do you know about my parish, my pastor, or other personal circumstances? I am really trying to understand your intent here. Are you trying to encourage me to draw closer to God?

It seems to me that perhaps you should consider presenting your opinions in a more diplomatic way in the future. The result of this exchange with you is hurt feelings on my part. I opened myself with sharing my personal experience and you did not share any of yours. This was an unequal exchange.

houston1

 

[houston1]

Dear friend,

People have seen prayers answered years later. Perhaps God, Little Flower, answered your prayer and you missed it. Maybe you need spiritual outlook glasses with thicker lenses… God reads the heart and mind when we pray, and gives us what we truly need, not always what we want. If God can combine them fine. God prods and provokes us here too, to test us to see if we will remain faithful to Him and Love Him. There are infinities of reasons for anything and everything. Don’t question God, just trust Him. You may pray for something, and someone else prays for another thing. A clash can occur between prayers, and God must satisfy all. God is the unknown unknowable. Just trust Him. Hope this helps.

John,

Thanks for your response. Everything you say is right on. I will keep trusting and hoping in God. I am sure that He has something good in store.

houston1

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John,

Thanks for your response. Everything you say is right on. I will keep trusting and hoping in God. I am sure that He has something good in store.

houston1

Your welcome. Glad if it helped

 

[pianistclare]

As I read all of these posts…

Why not just find a parish that needs help?
Why does it HAVE to be this one priest?
I think this is what is troubling…if you wish to work for God, and help Our Lady’s sons, gracious!
There is plenty of work to be done in the vineyard!
Get out there and find a ministry that suits you.
Maybe THAT is what is the rosebush is about.
Get out into the yard! (the church at large)
Don’t focus on one person…that’s not helpful to the Church. This priest has a mom, probably, he has a secretary, he probably has Knights of Columbus, a Sacristan, a DRE, an Administrative Assistant, a Director of RCIA, a choir Director…
help his FLOCK…and earn his respect.
More importantly, serve the Lord.
Don’t worry too much about being a “Mary”. The church needs “Marthas” too.
Peace.

 

[houston1]

As I read all of these posts…

Why not just find a parish that needs help?
Why does it HAVE to be this one priest?
I think this is what is troubling…if you wish to work for God, and help Our Lady’s sons, gracious!
There is plenty of work to be done in the vineyard!
Get out there and find a ministry that suits you.
Maybe THAT is what is the rosebush is about.
Get out into the yard! (the church at large)
Don’t focus on one person…that’s not helpful to the Church. This priest has a mom, probably, he has a secretary, he probably has Knights of Columbus, a Sacristan, a DRE, an Administrative Assistant, a Director of RCIA, a choir Director…
help his FLOCK…and earn his respect.
More importantly, serve the Lord.
Don’t worry too much about being a “Mary”. The church needs “Marthas” too.
Peace.

Pianistclare,

Thanks. I may be making a much bigger deal of this than I should. I am taking all of these posts to heart even the ones that I have a hard time accepting. God’s will be done. May God bless you.

houston1

 

[houston1]

No. You are attributing my posts to the work of the evil spirit, so it seems well and good for me to depart. One last word, your pastor hasn’t opened a door for you to become parish pastoral leader, or whatever it is you desire. Until he does, and IF he does, all of this disquiet is not of God, but more of the human spirit, desiring more than God or your pastor is willing to bestow in your path. Equating the sufferings of St. Faustina who had an official mission from God, is not even in the ballpark here, since you do not have a definite calling from either God or your pastor. My last word.

Sirach2,

After much prayer and reflection, I want to apologize to you for insinuating that you offered me evil council. As you can see, I am bothered and troubled by my issue and am making a super big deal out of something that should be simple. You are right. This is some sort of attachment.

My apologies again. May God bless you.

houston1

 

[DBT]

You are right. This is some sort of attachment.

Given your interest in St. John of the Cross, may I suggest you switch your focus of study from Dark Night to The Ascent? Pay particular attention to Book 1 and the discussion of inordinate desires and how they manifest themselves in Book 3, Chapter 16+ in attachments to people and the expectations we come up with for what our spiritual life should be like. And of course stay true to that discussion in the other thread on the purification of memory because the message of The Ascent on recollection is at least partially your way out of this dilemma. The more we dwell on our problems through introspection and analysis the more mentally preoccupied and disquieted we become. Letting go and returning to God when these thoughts come to us is key.

No doubt all of this is a great suffering to you … a night indeed. But whenever attachment is the root of our difficulties we know the cause of our suffering (and the solution) lies within us. God does not cause these trials as He does in the passive night … but He does allow us to persist in them. Oftentimes in utter darkness.

My prayers are with you that perhaps you are finding your way out.

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

Thank you, Dave. Houston send me a lovely PM and I shared with her the similar teaching from St. Francis de Sales with regard to our desires. Anyone who has followed this thread or the other one may find this wise saint’s advice helpful also.

catholictreasury.info/boo…life/dev81.php

Quote:
We ought not to desire ways of serving God which He does not open to us, but rather desire to use what we have rightly. Of course I mean by this, real earnest desires, not common superficial wishes, which do no harm if not too frequently indulged.

Make rather a selection from all these desires, under the guidance of your spiritual father, of such as you are able to perform, and then use them as perfectly as you are able. When you have done this, God will send you more, to be fulfilled in their turn, and so you will not waste time in unprofitable wishes. Not that I would have you lose any good desires, but rather treat them methodically, putting them aside in one corner of your heart till due time comes, while you carry out such as are ripe for action.

 

[houston1]

Thank you, Dave. Houston send me a lovely PM and I shared with her the similar teaching from St. Francis de Sales with regard to our desires. Anyone who has followed this thread or the other one may find this wise saint’s advice helpful also.

catholictreasury.info/boo…life/dev81.php

Quote:
We ought not to desire ways of serving God which He does not open to us, but rather desire to use what we have rightly. Of course I mean by this, real earnest desires, not common superficial wishes, which do no harm if not too frequently indulged.

Make rather a selection from all these desires, under the guidance of your spiritual father, of such as you are able to perform, and then use them as perfectly as you are able. When you have done this, God will send you more, to be fulfilled in their turn, and so you will not waste time in unprofitable wishes. Not that I would have you lose any good desires, but rather treat them methodically, putting them aside in one corner of your heart till due time comes, while you carry out such as are ripe for action.

Sirach2,

I have read the Introduction to the Devout Life twice and the second time during this trial. I even studied the above section many times but I could not see. But, now I see thanks to your kind and straightforward posts.

My SD mostly listens to me and will interject when I’m really “off.” On this desire and my concern that it is a “vain hope,” he said, “no hope is vain when you consider it as a verb and not a noun.” So, I take that this to mean that we should hope in God not any specific hope. I think.

Lastly, I am really trying to reconcile this supposed peace that I had with this desire with the St. Ignatius discernment rules. Somewhere I went wrong thinking God was leading me to hang my hat on this friendship. I would appreciate your and any other CAF member’s insights on this if you have any.

houston1

 

[Sirach2]

For those who do not have St. John’s Ascent of Mt. Carmel, we can read Dave’s (DBT) thoughts here in the chapter he mentioned. What excellent advise!!! Amen!

catholictreasury.info/books/ascent/asc64.php

 

[houston1]

Given your interest in St. John of the Cross, may I suggest you switch your focus of study from Dark Night to The Ascent? Pay particular attention to Book 1 and the discussion of inordinate desires and how they manifest themselves in Book 3, Chapter 16+ in attachments to people and the expectations we come up with for what our spiritual life should be like. And of course stay true to that discussion in the other thread on the purification of memory because the message of The Ascent on recollection is at least partially your way out of this dilemma. The more we dwell on our problems through introspection and analysis the more mentally preoccupied and disquieted we become. Letting go and returning to God when these thoughts come to us is key.

No doubt all of this is a great suffering to you … a night indeed. But whenever attachment is the root of our difficulties we know the cause of our suffering (and the solution) lies within us. God does not cause these trials as He does in the passive night … but He does allow us to persist in them. Oftentimes in utter darkness.

My prayers are with you that perhaps you are finding your way out.

Dave

Dave,

Thank you. I have now read all the works of St. John of the Cross. As you can see, I really need to get to work, with the help of God’s grace, on applying everything. I will study those sections of the Ascent to Mount Carmel and I am just beginning the book you recommended by Marc Foley on the Ascent.

Up until now, my thinking was the fact that I did not will this desire, I had no attachment, as I certainly didn’t want to have this desire, urge, whatever it is. I see that there is more to it than just this. But, I don’t know what.

Thanks again for your attentiveness to my problem.

houston1

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach2,

Lastly, I am really trying to reconcile this supposed peace that I had with this desire with the St. Ignatius discernment rules. Somewhere I went wrong thinking God was leading me to hang my hat on this friendship. I would appreciate your and any other CAF member’s insights on this if you have any.

If you are familiar with St. Ignatius’ life, you may recall that he had a persistent vision of an exceptionally beautiful serpent. It gave him peace and much joy to dwell upon it. Much later, he realized it was a false vision. We cannot discern based on interior vision or desire alone, for these can deceive us and even bring a measure of peace, especially if they bring us delight to think of them. This is why St. John’s teachings are a sure guide, because he teaches us to void our minds of these “apprehensions” since they are not a means to union with God.

No need to worry. These lessons are not learned in a day, as St. Ignatius would be first to tell us. It took him a long time to gain discernment, and that’s what makes him a good Master. I’m wondering if you read Fr. Timothy Gallagher’s books on Discernment? He, too, is a wonderful master of the Ignatian writings and goes into much depth to explain the steps in detail. EWTN had a lengthy series on Father’s teachings, and there may even be a DVD on them in the catalog, but I liked the book much better. Nothing like a manual to study and go back to it as needed.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, first realize that we’ve all been there. Sometimes we’re just so in love with the Church that we go overboard…yes, you CAN go overboard. Everyone knows someone at their parish who trots along after the priest, who has to consulted or pouts whenever a new committee is formed, who has to be the one who decided what fabrics will be used, who has to run all the social events, who has to sing louder, prayer faster, jump in FIRST in communal prayer…etc.
The prince of lies would have us think that we are being uber faithful. While he sits back and giggles.
We’ve all been there. Don’t be too hard on yourself. My late husband was chronically unemployed. 13 years. I prayed that St. Joseph Novena to death…no pun intended. He died before he ever got a job. It was so dog-eared I had it laminated.
It just didn’t work. Not because St. Joseph didn’t pray for me…because the person who would have received the help didn’t want it.
Years later, my prayer was answered in another way…St. Joseph introduced me to a Joseph…my present husband.
There’s a calling for everyone. Some are called to pray and be contemplatives. Some are called to police the silver. Find the one that suits your particular talents. You certainly have a love of the Lord and a strong desire to serve. Just be “small” about it. You will find far more joy in it. FAR more joy…
Peace, dear one!

 

[houston1]

If you are familiar with St. Ignatius’ life, you may recall that he had a persistent vision of an exceptionally beautiful serpent. It gave him peace and much joy to dwell upon it. Much later, he realized it was a false vision. We cannot discern based on interior vision or desire alone, for these can deceive us and even bring a measure of peace, especially if they bring us delight to think of them. This is why St. John’s teachings are a sure guide, because he teaches us to void our minds of these “apprehensions” since they are not a means to union with God.

No need to worry. These lessons are not learned in a day, as St. Ignatius would be first to tell us. It took him a long time to gain discernment, and that’s what makes him a good Master. I’m wondering if you read Fr. Timothy Gallagher’s books on Discernment? He, too, is a wonderful master of the Ignatian writings and goes into much depth to explain the steps in detail. EWTN had a lengthy series on Father’s teachings, and there may even be a DVD on them in the catalog, but I liked the book much better. Nothing like a manual to study and go back to it as needed.

Sirach2,

I had not heard of his vision but I have read a couple of those books several years ago. I guess that I need to get back to work! I even saw the series on EWTN. I guess I know enough to be dangerous . . .

Now, I have a very specific question for you (and Dave) concerning my soon-to-be pastor. Since I cannot see my situation objectively, I will follow whatever you (and Dave, if he wants to offer his opinion) recommend that I do. My pastor’s birthday is coming up soon and I had planned (along with my husband and son) to give him a nice crucifix with his initials and a Scripture verse on it. Last year, we sent him a nice gift card with a letter. Question: should I acknowledge his birthday with this gift? If not, should I acknowledge it at all and, if so, in what manner? FYI. I generally like giving gifts to people and have given gifts to other priests in the past with no problem or worries, on my part.

Your recommendation?

Thanks for your help.

houston1