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SuperLuigi
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Is it even possible for a 10-year-old to mortally sin?
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aspirant
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The Catholic Church does not teach that the gravity of all offenses is equal.
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GaryTaylor
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Stealing is stealing it also is not a legal court to determine degree of larceny.
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aspirant
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No one has denied this. The Catholic Church does not teach that the gravity of all offenses is equal.
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GaryTaylor
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Post 21 On Stealing -“I think the gravity depends on the circumstances” Then of course you digress to your last two statements same as the above. So what are you saying? .
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Arizona_Fat_Gir
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A venial sin can be a grave matter.
Let’s say a person (most likely a child) is curious about fire. He takes his Dad’s cigarette lighter and plays with it. He is disobeying by playing with the lighter.
Then the lighter flares up and starts the living room drapes on fire. The child committed a venial sin, but the fire is serious, and could indeed be a grave matter if it puts anyone into a grave. However, it would not be a grave sin for the boy. He didn’t mean for it to happen.
Let’s say a person (most likely a child) is curious about fire. He takes his Dad’s cigarette lighter and plays with it. He is disobeying by playing with the lighter.
Then the lighter flares up and starts the living room drapes on fire. The child committed a venial sin, but the fire is serious, and could indeed be a grave matter if it puts anyone into a grave. However, it would not be a grave sin for the boy. He didn’t mean for it to happen.
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aspirant
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Yes.
That different instances of stealing may both be stealing while differing from one another in gravity.
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GaryTaylor
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Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. What is talked about above is unintentional ignorance…#25
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GaryTaylor
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IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN
1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. “The distinction between mortal and venial sin”, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
Stealing is stealing, the gravity is determined by your full knowledge and consent, in this Grave is in relation to the Commandments.
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aspirant
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These two are necessary in order for mortal sin to be committed, yes, and also grave matter. See Bookcat’s #17 post. The old Catholic Encyclopedia also addresses this, as do other theologians such as Jimmy Akin, Germain Grisez, etc.
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GaryTaylor
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I know what I stated and where my thinking comes from, the CCC.
There is no different degree to “stealing”. That’s what we are talking about. Show me in the CCC.
The stealing money argument is a “failure” you place legalist restraint on God, and dismiss mortal to venial, I disagree. What amount “exactly” constitutes venial?
“Thou Shall NOT STEAL”
There is no different degree to “stealing”. That’s what we are talking about. Show me in the CCC.
The stealing money argument is a “failure” you place legalist restraint on God, and dismiss mortal to venial, I disagree. What amount “exactly” constitutes venial?
“Thou Shall NOT STEAL”
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englishredrose
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GaryTaylor
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Point?
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GaryTaylor
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Here’s my thinking. What everyone has to say is well and fine. No disagreement. It still comes down to Confession. There’s no grey area with Confession, it’s just black and white. The good book states, Thou Shall Not Steal. Its not for me to interpret Gods Word to validate my own thinking. While its well and fine to understand the CCC. Its still stealing is stealing.
If I for example walk by my neighbors yard and steal an apple of his tree. Or if I stole whatever, a set of tires. Its not confession with an explanation. Its I stole, period.
If I for example walk by my neighbors yard and steal an apple of his tree. Or if I stole whatever, a set of tires. Its not confession with an explanation. Its I stole, period.
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Vico
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Baltimore Catechism No. 3
Q. 1291. What sin is it to steal?
A. To steal is a mortal or venial sin, according to the amount stolen either at once or at different times. Circumstances may make the sin greater or less, and they should be explained in confession.
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mjbowen
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The beautiful thing about confession is that we do not have to feel sorrow or regret for the bad things that we have done. As humans we do not always have the appropriate feelings for our behaviors whether good or bad. So if going to confession simply depended on whether or not we felt like it most people probably would not do it. I know I do not always feel like going to confession. Confession is a matter of doing the right thing and choosing it no matter how we may feel. There is a priest who records his homilies and puts them on iTunes for free and does a better job of explaining it here is the link itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/umd-newman-catholic-campus/id273537688 and the homily is titled: Take Courage and was posted 9/26/11. His name is Fr. Mike Schmitz. This mother is doing the right thing by teaching her child to go to confession after committing a sin because it is the right thing to do. Confession is simply humbling yourself before God and giving Him your weaknesses so that He can heal you and give you the grace you need to do His will.
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otjm
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The CCC is npot the final arbiter of all matters moral.
In moral theology, a distinction is made; stealing is stealing, but not all stealing is a mortal sin. Taking a 2 dollar pen from a wealthy person is not the same as taking $2 out of someone’s wallet when that is the last two dollars they will have until they receive their monthly $1000 in SS Disability, which is the only funds they will receive for the entire month.
Demanding that someone come up with an answer out of the CCC for everything that can come up in theology is to misunderstand (and misuse) the CCC.
Someone who stole the $2 pen might feel in the depths of their soul that they have committed a mortal sin, but the Church does not.
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otjm
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Society makes sure that if we buy a toaster, we know from A to Z what we should not attempt to do with it, and probably in anywhere from two to ten languages.
Perhaps God should have been a lawyer; He fails to put the instructions in their hot little hand when they come sliding down the chute.
OK, maybe “sliding” is not an accurate description, but I think you get the point. There are all sorts of advice out there as to how to raise a child, much of it conflicting.
Children sometimes have much more sensitivity to what we as adults tell them than we realize; and then there are those who seem to be encased in Teflon. I would be a bit hesitant to demand that he go to confession; others have spoken to it here and they have a point.
Perhaps the best you can do is speak to the parish priest directly about your concerns, and follow his guidance. Hopefully he is sensitive to children.
None of us can really speak to your child’s awareness of how wrong taking the money is; he may know it was wrong but not see it as seriously wrong (hey - it was there and up for grabs); or he may be a problematic child who is devious and conniving. and there is a lot of area in between those two.
Someone else mentioned how your child reacted to the issue after it was discovered; was he sorry? A little? A Lot? Didn’t see the issue? Is still in a funk about it?
Children at any chronological age can vary all over in terms of maturity. You ask a tough question, but I am not sure any of us can really give you an adequate answer. What you don’t want to do is to have this as the starter of a path leading to dropping out of the Church somewhere in teen age or young adult years because of how this is handled. Not all corrections warp children, nor do I suggest that they do; but there are times where we are trying to do the right thing and we do more damage than good.
Children need to be taught right from wrong; we can also be so focused on our own understanding that we fail to put the matters in context which a child understands. I would look to the pastor for help.
All children need to learn rules; what we sometimes forget is that rules are not in isolation. They are in community; something is a serious sin not because some rule somewhere says it is; it is serious because it is an act through which we turn away from God and inward to I/ME/MINE. It damages our relationship with God and with others. Observe someone who is very selfish and self centered; and someone who is altruistic and giving. Sin is an act of selfishness, self centeredness; loving God impels us to love others.
But we cannot apply that to your son, as we don’t know him. Thus we are poor judges at best.
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Evania
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Beautifully put!!!
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GaryTaylor
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Your point?
Not understanding what this has do with what I’m talking about? Your connection I’m confused with.
Right Stealing is Stealing. My point is you are going to confession if you are aware of this. If your not aware “ignorant” thus no intent known, you wouldn’t be there. And do you plan on asking the priest if this counts as “One Venial” or “One Mortal” sin?
Above the intention is the same. God is not a legalistic criminal judge. Your own conscience developed should indicate to you the difference in this analogy of intention. God said Thou Shall not Steal without elaboration.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a mortal sin as follows:
“Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.” (C.C.C. # 1855)
For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must exist at the same time.
- It must be of a grave matter;
- It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin;
- It must be committed with full consent. [Full consent means to do it “voluntarily.”] (C.C.C. # 1857)
“Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s laws. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.” (C.C.C. # 1859)
“When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object… whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbour, such as homicide or adultery… But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbour, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.” (C.C.C. # 1856)
“Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the Sacrament of Confession.” (C.C.C. # 1856)
“Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the private of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance of God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.” (C.C.C. # 1861)
“To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.” (C.C.C. # 1874)
There is no legalistic understanding of degrees of larceny and that has noting to do with anything.
And why are you pointing this out to me? I’m confused with this connection.
Intent is the difference, not the dollar amount, 1 cent, one grape or as you say $2 dollars doesn’t negate the “intent”. If you intend to steal, then you intention is to steal. If you didn’t think you committed a sin you wouldn’t be confessing it. If your conscience is clear the topic doesn’t come up to confess to begin with. You wouldn’t be in confession since in your mind you wouldn’t make a connection to “wrong” the degree of wrong then becomes a non issue.
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