Recessional Hymns

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JohnnyK

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Hello everyone,

Is there any rules regarding the hymns to be sung at mass? At my parish, our pastor allows our music director to play some classical piece (of his choosing I guess) instead of a recessional hymn. Once it is over, people clap (those who stayed to hear the 'concert piece"). I find this disturbing to say the least (last week’s exit sounded like something from a monster movie).

Is there anything liturgically speaking that I can point to that states it either is or is not allowed?:confused:

Thanks in advance and may Our Lord bless you!
 
I suppose there’s room for disagreement, but many folks will point out that technically, the Mass has ended.
 
Yes, technically, the mass is over when the priest says, “the mass has ended” or the equivalent, so technically the recessional hymn is optional. Some quick research reveals that there are no rules governing recessional hymns for this reason. I’m getting this information from EWTN, so I think it’s reliable: ewtn.com/expert/answers/music_mass_parts.htm#recessional.

That being said, I would tend to agree that just because the mass is ended does not mean that “anything goes” as far as the recessional hymn is concerned, but there does seem to be more leeway compared to the music sung during mass. Though I’m sure some people would disagree with that, and I think there are some people indeed who would say that a priest is well within his rights as the pastor of the Church to have some death metal played as the recessional hymn. While there’s probably some middle ground here, the priest does have the final say, though I have found in my experience that many priests are open to (name removed by moderator)ut from the laity on music during mass (or the music director if the priest leaves that up to this person) or are at least willing to entertain suggestions even if he sticks with his original plan.

I’m not sure that this is an issue worth pursuing unless it gets truly out of hand, though I do understand your desire for more solemn music for the recessional even though it “technically” may not be a part of mass. Just keep in mind that music during mass is a very touchy subject with some people due to people’s different tastes, especially on this forum; you are probably opening yourself up to some flaming on here but I wouldn’t let it bother you.
 
JohnnyK said:
Hello everyone,

Is there any rules regarding the hymns to be sung at mass? At my parish, our pastor allows our music director to play some classical piece (of his choosing I guess) instead of a recessional hymn. Once it is over, people clap (those who stayed to hear the 'concert piece"). I find this disturbing to say the least (last week’s exit sounded like something from a monster movie).

Is there anything liturgically speaking that I can point to that states it either is or is not allowed?:confused:

Thanks in advance and may Our Lord bless you!
Click to expand...
If it sounded like something from a monster movie, the organist was probably playing some piece from a classical requiem Mass. Some versions of the Dies Irae are rather scary.
 
Simply speak to the priest and his Music Director. Find out their thinking on the matter.

From most of the postings here on CAF, there is not one single place in the whole of the United States that has a Music Director that knows anything whatsoever about liturgy or has any real knowledge about music.

Baffling eh? :rolleyes:

All I can say is…you get what you pay for.
Or what the pastor wants. 🤷

Pay me a living wage, and I’ll come there and play anything you want. :coffeeread:
 
Thank you for all your comments. while it seems that technically, nothing is wrong, given the responses,I am def not comfortable with this and other things that have gone on with our current pastor. I am praying about changing parishes to a more conservative and reverent one, just waiting for clarity as its not easy. God bless you all!
 
At my parish, our pastor allows our music director to play some classical piece (of his choosing I guess) instead of a recessional hymn. Once it is over, people clap (those who stayed to hear the 'concert piece")
Click to expand...
Hold on a minute, as a recessional hymn (with words that people join in), or as a postlude (a piece of music with no words, not always explicitly religious in nature played at the end of the service.) A postlude does not need to be religious and is often more of a “concert piece” to which there may be applause afterwards. In the Ordinariate this is quite normal (and in the Anglican tradition).
 
JohnnyK said:
Thank you for all your comments. while it seems that technically, nothing is wrong, given the responses,I am def not comfortable with this and other things that have gone on with our current pastor. I am praying about changing parishes to a more conservative and reverent one, just waiting for clarity as its not easy. God bless you all!
Click to expand...
No worries,
FWIW, Pastors come and go, but the Eucharist is unchanging.
Perhaps it would be better to demonstrate quiet obedience to your shepherd, and be the change that you would like to evoke among your brothers and sisters.
God bless you! :gopray:
 
pianistclare said:
Simply speak to the priest and his Music Director. Find out their thinking on the matter.

From most of the postings here on CAF, there is not one single place in the whole of the United States that has a Music Director that knows anything whatsoever about liturgy or has any real knowledge about music.

Baffling eh? :rolleyes:

All I can say is…you get what you pay for.
Or what the pastor wants. 🤷

Pay me a living wage, and I’ll come there and play anything you want. :coffeeread:
Click to expand...
You get what you pay for indeed. Nobody in our “music ministry” is trained in music or liturgy. A few can read music (because it’s taught in school) and strum a guitar. That’s it. Nobody in our parish would agree with paying a music person because as far as they are concerned music is a ministry like any other and nobody else gets paid. Sad but true. They were willing to pay a Protestant to come play the organ when our organist (unpaid) moved years ago, but that idea was dropped when a teacher who strummed took it upon herself to get her pals together to form a choir.
 
Phemie said:
You get what you pay for indeed. Nobody in our “music ministry” is trained in music or liturgy. A few can read music (because it’s taught in school) and strum a guitar. That’s it. Nobody in our parish would agree with paying a music person because as far as they are concerned music is a ministry like any other and nobody else gets paid. Sad but true. They were willing to pay a Protestant to come play the organ when our organist (unpaid) moved years ago, but that idea was dropped when a teacher who strummed took it upon herself to get her pals together to form a choir.
Click to expand...
It is sad. This of us that have advanced degrees in music and theology would be happy to not work at a desk. But everyone deserves a living wage.
People claim to value music so much , or they seem to as much as they are unhappy, but they don’t consider the hours of work that goes on teaching the music to sometimes 4 different choirs, having the knowledge of appropriate music and the ability and connections to recruit fine instrumentalists for special liturgies.
 
pianistclare said:
It is sad. This of us that have advanced degrees in music and theology would be happy to not work at a desk. But everyone deserves a living wage.
People claim to value music so much , or they seem to as much as they are unhappy, but they don’t consider the hours of work that goes on teaching the music to sometimes 4 different choirs, having the knowledge of appropriate music and the ability and connections to recruit fine instrumentalists for special liturgies.
Click to expand...
Traditionally, have small parishes ever paid for a music director? I can see that happening at the Cathedral or a large parish in a city but country parishes like the one in which I grew up and the small town parishes I’ve belonged to since I moved away from home have always done with volunteers. There simply isn’t money to pay a living wage to a music director. Heck, we struggle to pay the priest his salary and keep heat on in the church.

Our former organist was actually a voice major who taught music at the Catholic school. She chose the music and sang anything that had to be done solo: the Exsultet!, the Psalms, and the Litany of the Saints at baptisms. She had a full-time job so she refused to have anything to do with a choir at the parish level. Other than the thrown together youth choir that sang at “Family Mass” once a month, we didn’t have a choir until that organist moved away and we found ourselves with nothing for the Triduum. A teacher who has a nice voice decided to get her friends together and recruited a few others, including me, to form an a capella choir for those three vital days. Of course we sang in harmony because nobody could teach us anything different.

Our present choir slowly evolved from that Triduum choir. The same person who formed it then, leads it now and more power to her, but trained she isn’t. And she has categorically refused to go for training when it was offered to her, all expenses paid because someone had donated money specifically for that. Any time it’s been pointed out that something they, thus we, are doing violates the GIRM (singing a Gloria that’s paraphrased, for example, or a hymn instead of a Psalm) the response is always the same, “I’m sure God doesn’t mind.” What can you reply to that? 🤷
 
Phemie said:
Traditionally, have small parishes ever paid for a music director? I can see that happening at the Cathedral or a large parish in a city but country parishes like the one in which I grew up and the small town parishes I’ve belonged to since I moved away from home have always done with volunteers. There simply isn’t money to pay a living wage to a music director. Heck, we struggle to pay the priest his salary and keep heat on in the church.

Our former organist was actually a voice major who taught music at the Catholic school. She chose the music and sang anything that had to be done solo: the Exsultet!, the Psalms, and the Litany of the Saints at baptisms. She had a full-time job so she refused to have anything to do with a choir at the parish level. Other than the thrown together youth choir that sang at “Family Mass” once a month, we didn’t have a choir until that organist moved away and we found ourselves with nothing for the Triduum. A teacher who has a nice voice decided to get her friends together and recruited a few others, including me, to form an a capella choir for those three vital days. Of course we sang in harmony because nobody could teach us anything different.

Yes we were always paid.
A pittance.
Bookkeepers get paid, Deacons get a stipend as a housing allowance, DRE’s get paid, Youth Ministers get paid, of course the custodian, and yard people, Parish secretary, Admin Assistants, and accompanists. The accompanist at my present parish gets more for playing the keyboard than I ever got as a Director per weekend.
And…if she plays a funeral, they have to have her check READY before she sits down.

But the real issue is that most people don’t realize the time it takes.
Our present Director has a full time job teaching special ed in the school and four children ranging from middle school to High school. She barely has time to think about it. The choir seldom practices because she’s not available. And the choir themselves lament that they sing the same 20 pieces over an d over, and mostly stuff form Christian radio.
Our Director as well claims to have a book that lists what songs can be used in place of the Responsorial psalm. I’ve tried to impress upon her, that those things are are for EMERGENCY situations. Not to be used as weekly options. And if there is a big disaster in the music ministry, the cantor can chant them or the reader can read. Once a year? Meh. No problem Priests understand. So we sing a rather Gospel-y version of “Sing to the Lord there is salvation” EVERY.SINGLE. SUNDAY. in the Easter season. Because it’s loud and snappy. I tried to impress upon them, that we in the Education department, encourage and expect the children top read in advance the readings for Sunday. That flies out the window and undoes what we teach when they just “wing it”.
And our congregation has suffered this for so long that they have just given up, they just don’t care anymore. No one sings, and people just stare at the “soloists”.

I’ve give anything to be a Music Director again. It’s what I do.
But I am the DRE because no one wants to work with kids either. 🤷
Don’t get me wrong, I love the children, the teens, and I’m passionate about it.
But it’s not what I was meant to do.
A girl’s gotta eat.

Our present choir slowly evolved from that Triduum choir. The same person who formed it then, leads it now and more power to her, but trained she isn’t. And she has categorically refused to go for training when it was offered to her, all expenses paid because someone had donated money specifically for that. Any time it’s been pointed out that something they, thus we, are doing violates the GIRM (singing a Gloria that’s paraphrased, for example, or a hymn instead of a Psalm) the response is always the same, “I’m sure God doesn’t mind.” What can you reply to that? 🤷
Click to expand...
You say : It’s for the Lord. We give Him excellence, not close enough. After the price He paid for us? I’m surprised anyone would think that the liturgy is that unimportant. " I say it. No one cares though. But, to be fair, no one cares about youth programs either. But they sure do complain about today’s youth. 🤷
 
pianistclare said:
Yes we were always paid.
A pittance.
Bookkeepers get paid, Deacons get a stipend as a housing allowance, DRE’s get paid, Youth Ministers get paid, of course the custodian, and yard people, Parish secretary, Admin Assistants, and accompanists. The accompanist at my present parish gets more for playing the keyboard than I ever got as a Director per weekend.
And…if she plays a funeral, they have to have her check READY before she sits down.

But the real issue is that most people don’t realize the time it takes.
Our present Director has a full time job teaching special ed in the school and four children ranging from middle school to High school. She barely has time to think about it. The choir seldom practices because she’s not available. And the choir themselves lament that they sing the same 20 pieces over an d over, and mostly stuff form Christian radio.
Our Director as well claims to have a book that lists what songs can be used in place of the Responsorial psalm. I’ve tried to impress upon her, that those things are are for EMERGENCY situations. Not to be used as weekly options. And if there is a big disaster in the music ministry, the cantor can chant them or the reader can read. Once a year? Meh. No problem Priests understand. So we sing a rather Gospel-y version of “Sing to the Lord there is salvation” EVERY.SINGLE. SUNDAY. in the Easter season. Because it’s loud and snappy. I tried to impress upon them, that we in the Education department, encourage and expect the children top read in advance the readings for Sunday. That flies out the window and undoes what we teach when they just “wing it”.
And our congregation has suffered this for so long that they have just given up, they just don’t care anymore. No one sings, and people just stare at the “soloists”.

I’ve give anything to be a Music Director again. It’s what I do.
But I am the DRE because no one wants to work with kids either. 🤷
Don’t get me wrong, I love the children, the teens, and I’m passionate about it.
But it’s not what I was meant to do.
A girl’s gotta eat.
Click to expand...
We don’t pay anyone.

No secretary, they eliminated that when I resigned after 11 years of part-time work.
No DRE, they allow anyone who volunteers loose with the kids. Those people aren’t paid.
No deacon, no youth ministers, no paid bookkeeper (a parishioner is an accountant and looks at the books).
In this parish almost everything was built with scrounged material, even the church was a discarded building from a military base nearby. Over the years any maintenance has been done by volunteers, including plumbing and electrical work.

That changed around 2000 when professionals were hired to rewire, etc during a millennial project. But there is still a core group of people in the parish, including someone on the finance council, which is of the opinion that everything should be done by professional parishioners on a volunteer basis because “it’s for the Church!” and that’s what was done when they themselves were kids.
You say : It’s for the Lord. We give Him excellence, not close enough. After the price He paid for us? I’m surprised anyone would think that the liturgy is that unimportant. " I say it. No one cares though. But, to be fair, no one cares about youth programs either. But they sure do complain about today’s youth. 🤷
Click to expand...
And that’s exactly it, nobody cares. I’m positive that if that woman were to quit the music all her friends would quit with her. Their loyalty and friendship lie with her, not with the Church. That’s why they don’t sing Christmas Day, that’s why the Feast of Mary Mother of God doesn’t have singing (they make no bones about the fact that no one should expect them to sing on New Year’s Day as they’ve partied hearty all night).
 
Phemie said:
We don’t pay anyone.

No secretary, they eliminated that when I resigned after 11 years of part-time work.
No DRE, they allow anyone who volunteers loose with the kids. Those people aren’t paid.
No deacon, no youth ministers, no paid bookkeeper (a parishioner is an accountant and looks at the books).
In this parish almost everything was built with scrounged material, even the church was a discarded building from a military base nearby. Over the years any maintenance has been done by volunteers, including plumbing and electrical work.

That changed around 2000 when professionals were hired to rewire, etc during a millennial project. But there is still a core group of people in the parish, including someone on the finance council, which is of the opinion that everything should be done by professional parishioners on a volunteer basis because “it’s for the Church!” and that’s what was done when they themselves were kids.

And that’s exactly it, nobody cares. I’m positive that if that woman were to quit the music all her friends would quit with her. Their loyalty and friendship lie with her, not with the Church. That’s why they don’t sing Christmas Day, that’s why the Feast of Mary Mother of God doesn’t have singing (they make no bones about the fact that no one should expect them to sing on New Year’s Day as they’ve partied hearty all night).
Click to expand...
:bighanky:

I’m sorry.
 
There is no one solution to fit all situations. However, you get what you pay for, more often than not. I understand that many places have to work only with volunteers, or with those that are paid a small stipend. So just accept that which you have as the best possible for the size of the parish and the funds available. Sometimes that is a guitar an sometimes that is a guy standing up and thumbing a hymnal open for a song right before Mass.
 
pnewton said:
There is no one solution to fit all situations. However, you get what you pay for, more often than not. I understand that many places have to work only with volunteers, or with those that are paid a small stipend. So just accept that which you have as the best possible for the size of the parish and the funds available. Sometimes that is a guitar an sometimes that is a guy standing up and thumbing a hymnal open for a song right before Mass.
Click to expand...
Or, alternately, we could care about our liturgy, strive for excellence, and be a better employer.
Nah. Never gonna happen.
:pshaw:
 
There is no requirement for a recessional hymn. The Mass is over at that point. I’ve been to Benedictine abbeys in Europe and Canada and never heard a recessional hymn sung, but have heard a recessional piece played on the organ.

It’s not a matter to raise a sweat over.
 
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