Reconciliation and Sin

[OldeThom]

Hello everyone … I am back for more. Hope you can help out.

Does this sound right? (along with a few questions):

In Reconciliation, we are confessing to Christ and it is he who forgives and absolves our sin. The priest is the sacramental witness, who assures us of forgiveness, as appointed by Jesus to the Apostles in John 20.

So is praying to Jesus for forgiveness a mandatory part of this process? Can this be done when not in the presence of a priest? In other words during our own personal time of prayer and meditation? Because as I understand it, according to the Church, we only need the Sacrament of Reconciliation for mortal sins, but that we should always confess all manner of sin. Is that right?

OK, since mortal sin separates our soul from God’s grace, what if I don’t make it to the confessional in time? I remember having this discussion a while back here (about the "Godfather movie and the “good mob guy” that goes to confession). So this is where the “Baptism of Desire” (or “absolution by desire”) comes in, that only God knows our heart, knows we are truly repentant, that he will never withhold His forgiveness from us, seeing as how God is our only judge in the first place, and will never turn us away when we sincerely come to him. Like the thief on the cross who obviously was not baptized with water, and yet Christ forgave him and guaranteed him a place in Paradise.

Don’t get me wrong I know why we must have the Sacrament and why Jesus gave the responsibility to the Apostles, and why in accordance to Sacred Tradition and Scripture it is carried on: to help us overcome sin, beyond “just” being forgiven.

I have heard this phrase now a few times, “God has bound Himself in the sacraments, but He is not bound to the sacraments”. I think that means God uses extraordinary means beyond the ability of man to understand them because He is God and knows the hearts of men - plus God does not need our help. In short, God can dispense grace to whomever and in whatever manner He chooses.

Lastly, with regards to mortal sin, I basically don’t see how a believing, faithful Christian could commit a sin of grave nature, know it is grave in nature, do so with their full free will intact, then totally disregard the forgiveness of God and turn from it. If is this so, it is obvious it is the Christian who has separated himself from God. It almost seems like a miracle in reverse.

Your guidance and thoughts would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - I am going through the Rite of Acceptance tomorrow! :extrahappy:

 

[teachccd]

Hello everyone … I am back for more. Hope you can help out.

Does this sound right? (along with a few questions):

In Reconciliation, we are confessing to Christ and it is he who forgives and absolves our sin. The priest is the sacramental witness, who assures us of forgiveness, as appointed by Jesus to the Apostles in John 20.

So is praying to Jesus for forgiveness a mandatory part of this process? Can this be done when not in the presence of a priest? In other words during our own personal time of prayer and meditation? Because as I understand it, according to the Church, we only need the Sacrament of Reconciliation for mortal sins, but that we should always confess all manner of sin. Is that right?

OK, since mortal sin separates our soul from God’s grace, what if I don’t make it to the confessional in time? I remember having this discussion a while back here (about the "Godfather movie and the “good mob guy” that goes to confession). So this is where the “Baptism of Desire” (or “absolution by desire”) comes in, that only God knows our heart, knows we are truly repentant, that he will never withhold His forgiveness from us, seeing as how God is our only judge in the first place, and will never turn us away when we sincerely come to him. Like the thief on the cross who obviously was not baptized with water, and yet Christ forgave him and guaranteed him a place in Paradise.

Don’t get me wrong I know why we must have the Sacrament and why Jesus gave the responsibility to the Apostles, and why in accordance to Sacred Tradition and Scripture it is carried on: to help us overcome sin, beyond “just” being forgiven.

I have heard this phrase now a few times, “God has bound Himself in the sacraments, but He is not bound to the sacraments”. I think that means God uses extraordinary means beyond the ability of man to understand them because He is God and knows the hearts of men - plus God does not need our help. In short, God can dispense grace to whomever and in whatever manner He chooses.

Lastly, with regards to mortal sin, I basically don’t see how a believing, faithful Christian could commit a sin of grave nature, know it is grave in nature, do so with their full free will intact, then totally disregard the forgiveness of God and turn from it. If is this so, it is obvious it is the Christian who has separated himself from God. It almost seems like a miracle in reverse.

Your guidance and thoughts would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - I am going through the Rite of Acceptance tomorrow! :extrahappy:

First of all, congrats are in order for your Rite of Acceptance today!!!

Now, in regards to your post, you seem to have a solid grasp on alot of which it is that you are askling about.I think that the reason why you do not have so many responses is because your question answers itself and initiates its own comments. Perhaps you could be more concise in your question and we could be of more help.

You are aware of the commissing in John Chapter 20 and you also know that Jesus forgives our sins through the priest as His vicar. Conversion is the focus in reconciliation and this should be as ongoing as our prayer. So, indeed we should continually seek forgiveness and conversion throughout our day. In those times when we know that we are in mortal sin (and many times we may not be but think that we are) we need to seek the Sacrament of Reconciliation. However, the graces of the Sacrament are in many times needed to keep us from falling further even when our sins are merely venial. Any sin is a moving away from Love and is a call to conversion.

I’m not sure if I addressed your question or concerns but if I can be of any further help let me know. My prayers are with you today and I commend you for your knowledge of our faith. Welcome home…teachccd

 

[OldeThom]

Thank you teachccd for your kind response and in the sharing of my joy and ascent, as it were, to the true Church.

We had a great service today in Mass, Fr Mark really had a wonderful presentation for all the catechumen and candidates, esp seeing as how the Rite of Acceptance fell on Dedication of St. John Lateran. It was uplifting and inspiring. It was absolutely stunning to see so many in the isles with their sponsors, some 100 in all! It was quite the sight. As I looked around the sanctuary almost very person was smiling and rejoicing in our commitment.

You are right, of course, teachccd, I do tend to answer my own questions, but I did not mean it to stop dialog, comment or opinion. Coming from a protestant background with absolutely no reference or knowledge of Catholicism, other than the usual “whore of Babylon, pope is the Antichrist” nonsense, so many of the words, phrases, customs, procedures, concepts and rites are just … foreign or seem so extrinsic. I have studied hard and long to overcome not only my own prejudice and misinformation, but also my lack of comparison and valid frame of reference. The former being less of a struggle than the latter.

For example, the word “conversion” in my understanding and experience was never used in reference or in any sense connected to ongoing reconciliation, only in the initial step of believing in Christ and accepting him as Savior and Lord. So I thank you for using that in your response, it helped greatly to bring an essential part of this process into focus and perspective. All of this experience to date has really been like trying to learn a new language or more accurately trying to understand a dialect of the same language - and it is difficult for an old, lame guy like me!

I am in an RCIA class but most in our study group are, um, how do I say this, unprepared. Maybe thought of as, I’m onto the main course and they’re still trying to figure out which fork to use. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a theologian or apologist, far from it, but I do pray, read, pray, write, pray, research, pray, go to Mass, and pray a great deal. It was my hope and my intent to have the faithful verify my thinking so it feels more like a mindset than just the accumulation of answers to a multiple-answer type exam. You see faith and belief have always meant more to me than just “religion” or a collection of rules. Religion is the “stuff” around faith and belief, but is not either. I was never convinced that what I believed was also what I knew, and visa versa. So here I am with God’s help and me finally listening. I struggle more with the questions than the answers.

Does any of this make sense?

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[LilyM]

Congratulations here too!

We CAN technically pray the ‘Act of Contrition’ any time before or after Confession, however it needs to be remembered that our expression of our sorrow to Christ is not the sole reason for confession to a priest.

The other side of the equation needs to be remembered as well - Christ’s forgiveness of our sins through the words of the priest and the graces which flow from that (ie greater spiritual strength to avoid future sin and so on).

 

[teachccd]

Thank you teachccd for your kind response and in the sharing of my joy and ascent, as it were, to the true Church.

We had a great service today in Mass, Fr Mark really had a wonderful presentation for all the catechumen and candidates, esp seeing as how the Rite of Acceptance fell on Dedication of St. John Lateran. It was uplifting and inspiring. It was absolutely stunning to see so many in the isles with their sponsors, some 100 in all! It was quite the sight. As I looked around the sanctuary almost very person was smiling and rejoicing in our commitment.

You are right, of course, teachccd, I do tend to answer my own questions, but I did not mean it to stop dialog, comment or opinion. Coming from a protestant background with absolutely no reference or knowledge of Catholicism, other than the usual “whore of Babylon, pope is the Antichrist” nonsense, so many of the words, phrases, customs, procedures, concepts and rites are just … foreign or seem so extrinsic. I have studied hard and long to overcome not only my own prejudice and misinformation, but also my lack of comparison and valid frame of reference. The former being less of a struggle than the latter.

For example, the word “conversion” in my understanding and experience was never used in reference or in any sense connected to ongoing reconciliation, only in the initial step of believing in Christ and accepting him as Savior and Lord. So I thank you for using that in your response, it helped greatly to bring an essential part of this process into focus and perspective. All of this experience to date has really been like trying to learn a new language or more accurately trying to understand a dialect of the same language - and it is difficult for an old, lame guy like me!

I am in an RCIA class but most in our study group are, um, how do I say this, unprepared. Maybe thought of as, I’m onto the main course and they’re still trying to figure out which fork to use. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a theologian or apologist, far from it, but I do pray, read, pray, write, pray, research, pray, go to Mass, and pray a great deal. It was my hope and my intent to have the faithful verify my thinking so it feels more like a mindset than just the accumulation of answers to a multiple-answer type exam. You see faith and belief have always meant more to me than just “religion” or a collection of rules. Religion is the “stuff” around faith and belief, but is not either. I was never convinced that what I believed was also what I knew, and visa versa. So here I am with God’s help and me finally listening. I struggle more with the questions than the answers.

Does any of this make sense?

Respectfully,
Thom

It makes perfect sense! I am very happy to hear of your great experience at your Rite of Acceptance Mass today. Yes, much of how we express ourselves as Catholics is very foreign in Protestant theology. I have taken great length with Protestants in order that I may understand how what we say is interpreted by them. For example when we say that we pray to saints many Protestants interpret that as if we give worship to the saints. So I can see your struggle in not only coming to an understanding of what we do but in also discerning what you may have previously been taught as to what it is that we really do not do.

Your fervency is evident in your last paragraph and I commend you for your diligence in learning the faith. I still have to believe that most of our best Catholics came from Protestantism.
Please feel free to PM me or continue here with any questions that I or many of our brothers and sisters can help you with. God bless you and keep up the good work!..teachccd

 

[GailMac]

Hey there Olde Thom - What is a rite of acceptance? They didn’t include that one in the RCIA class I went through.

Peace,

Gail

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Hey there Olde Thom - What is a rite of acceptance? They didn’t include that one in the RCIA class I went through.

Peace,

Gail

The Rite of Acceptance is the ceremony one goes through to become a catechumen (one seeking baptism). People who are already baptized go through a similar rite called the Rite of Welcoming and then are known as candidates. Wikipedia has a nice overview of the various steps in RCIA at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCIA

 

[OldeThom]

Congratulations here too!

We CAN technically pray the ‘Act of Contrition’ any time before or after Confession, however it needs to be remembered that our expression of our sorrow to Christ is not the sole reason for confession to a priest.

The other side of the equation needs to be remembered as well - Christ’s forgiveness of our sins through the words of the priest and the graces which flow from that (ie greater spiritual strength to avoid future sin and so on).

LilyM! Thank you! And thank you for your loving and concise statements and confirmation! Simply put, I have come to understand how this Sacrament is a covenant relationship between ourselves and our Confessor, Jesus Christ - as is our entire commitment to God a covenant. I was shocked to find how much I actually did not know of what I knew when I started reading about the various covenants in the Bible using the Sacraments as a template … starting with God’s covenant with creation and Adam. I was floored at how much an honest and open change in perspective could open so many doors of understanding and insight.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[FrDavid96]

Hello everyone … I am back for more. Hope you can help out.

…

Thom

Thom,
There’s an important distinction to be made.

1. Forgiveness from God. God in His infinite love and mercy forgives anyone who truly seeks that forgiveness.
2. Absolution. Absolution is a juridic act of the Church. It is the outward sign of God’s forgiveness.

God can (and does) forgive without the sacrament of Confession and sometimes absolution is given but the forgiveness isn’t there (a person can deceive the priest into pronouncing the words of absolution, but in that case, God Who can’t be deceived won’t forgive yet)

Asking forgiveness of God is a necessary part of confession (before, during, and after [penance]), so there’s no conflict there. Without an outward expression of contrition, the priest won’t pronounce absolution.

Christ gave us the Sacrament of Confession because He knows that we as human beings are imperfect, and therefore we can never be perfectly (in the literal sense) sorry for our sins. The graces of the Sacrament make up for what is lacking in us.

The priest stands in the person of Christ so that we may actually hear the words that we are forgiven. It’s one thing to pray and ask for forgiveness, and wonder IF we’ve been forgiven, but it’s another thing to get a spoken answer!

We can be forgiven for mortal sins without confession. What the Church is saying is that if we truly want that forgiveness, then we will go through the effort to confess to a priest and receive the absolution of the Church (as much as this is possible). Also, the more serious our sins are, the more we need to hear that we’ve been forgiven.

Two extreme examples
If I have an uncharitable thought about another driver on the road, I can ask God’s forgiveness and have confidence that my sorrow is sufficient to forgive such a minor sin.
If I commit murder, how much sorrow do I need? How can I ever know that I’ve been forgiven? That’s why we need to confess serious sins.

Lastly, in confession, it is not God Who needs our help. It is not God Who “needs” the priest to represent Him. Rather it is us who need the help and guidance of the priest. It is us who have the need to hear the words spoken by Christ through the priest.

 

[OldeThom]

Hey there Olde Thom - What is a rite of acceptance? They didn’t include that one in the RCIA class I went through.

Peace,

Gail

Hi Gail! Well, SuscipeMeDomine did give you that link, but I’d like to explain ours today. As I understand it, or as it was explained to us, so far, for most in the class, some 70 individuals, not all attending today it would seem, it was the end of our inquiry into the what the Church is all about and, with the Rite of Acceptance, we acknowledged our journey to date and agreed to make a commitment to start the Period of the Catechumenate, i.e., active listening and learning.

I guess there are some variations or traditions within the church as to how this is done. Our pastor wrapped both the Catechumen and Candidate part of the liturgy under the one heading of the “The Combined Rite of Acceptance [505 - 506]”, as defined in the link supplied. It was quite a lovely liturgy and for all of us a special significance seeing as how today we were celebrating the Dedication of St. John Lateran.

Our pastor spoke to each group separately, with the appropriate responses coming from each of us. Then once we all, both catechumens and candidates, responded that we were ready and prepared to go on, he proceeded to go through a number of blessings and signs of the cross over our ears, eyes, forehead, lips, shoulders, heart, hands and feet (I think I remembered them all ), in effect blessing our journey and purpose. Normally, he does the blessing on each individual himself, but because there were so many of us, he had our sponsors do it.

Imagine if you will a packed sanctuary (maybe 700 or 800 hundred souls) with a 100 or so standing in the isle, It was an experience I will not forget. It was quite stirring, bringing tears to my eyes as my heart leapt with joy - as well as for a few others I noticed. As I looked around the sanctuary I saw almost everyone with smiles, praying and rejoicing with us. I have never ever felt this way in any church, closest was years ago when we, as a family, were baptised at a Bible Church, which was special and wonderful. However, today it actually felt … real and meaningful.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[OldeThom]

God can (and does) forgive without the sacrament of Confession and sometimes absolution is given but the forgiveness isn’t there (a person can deceive the priest into pronouncing the words of absolution, but in that case, God Who can’t be deceived won’t forgive yet)

FrDavid, thank you for your detailed response. I understood all that you stated except the above reference. There seems to be a contradiction there, or a misunderstanding on my part, which is probably the case. Are you speaking in general terms or just in reference to mortal sin? Perhaps you could explain this a bit further. Especially as it pertains or may not pertain to your later example:

If I have an uncharitable thought about another driver on the road, I can ask God’s forgiveness and have confidence that my sorrow is sufficient to forgive such a minor sin.

Your comments have caused a bit of confusion. Clarification would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid, thank you for your detailed response. I understood all that you stated except the above reference. There seems to be a contradiction there, or a misunderstanding on my part, which is probably the case. Are you speaking in general terms or just in reference to mortal sin? Perhaps you could explain this a bit further. Especially as it pertains or may not pertain to your later example:

Your comments have caused a bit of confusion. Clarification would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Thom

OK.
My point was to show the distinction between forgiveness and absolution. Absolution is the words spoken by the priest. Whether the sins are venial or mortal, there can be times when the priest says the words of absolution but we aren’t actually forgiven by God. This happens if we deceive the priest in confession.
A person might have no contrition at all for sins, but is only going to confession for the sake of appearances (say a teenager who goes just because his grandmother told him he had to go, and she’s waiting for him to exit the confessional). That teenager might be able to “fool” the priest into thinking he’s sincere, but he can’t fool God. Or someone who lies about the sin “I embezzled about a thousand dollars” when the number is closer to 2 million. The priest doesn’t know any better and he says the words of absolution. God has better accountants.

Part 2
We all commit “little” sins constantly as we go about our daily lives. It is relatively easy (and quite sincere) for me to look at a loving, merciful God and know that He will forgive such minor sins just by my asking Him to do so. Very small sins only require a small amount of contrition. In the case of getting angry at that other driver, simply thinking “Sorry God.” might be sufficient for me to be forgiven. I’m not being arogant or presuming on God’s judgment if I think to myself that God forgave me.

If I kill someone though, a simple “sorry” doesn’t cut it.

Does that help or just muddy the waters more?

 

[OldeThom]

Ah FrDavid, thank you - that helped a great deal, yes. I had to chuckle a bit over your example of the teenager in confession with his grandmother waiting in the vestibule. - the image and explanation was very clear. However, in your second part, “Part 2”, example it seems reasonable to be able, as well as expected, to ask God for forgiveness for the little or venial sins we commit during the course of our day, but are we absolved? I think the answer is no. Little of big, i.e., venial or mortal, isn’t it only the priest that can issue absolution? Therefore, we must go to confession on a regular basis, as John 20 would seem to infer.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[FrDavid96]

Ah FrDavid, thank you - that helped a great deal, yes. I had to chuckle a bit over your example of the teenager in confession with his grandmother waiting in the vestibule. - the image and explanation was very clear. However, in your second part, “Part 2”, example it seems reasonable to be able, as well as expected, to ask God for forgiveness for the little or venial sins we commit during the course of our day, but are we absolved? I think the answer is no. Little of big, i.e., venial or mortal, isn’t it only the priest that can issue absolution? Therefore, we must go to confession on a regular basis, as John 20 would seem to infer.

Respectfully,
Thom

Precisely. We are only absolved if the priest pronounces the words because absolution is a juridic (judicial) act of the Church.

But don’t misunderstand that. Just because we haven’t been absolved, doesn’t mean we haven’t been forgiven. It’s just what you said in an earlier post; “God has bound Himself in the sacraments, but He is not bound to the sacraments.”

God is free to forgive us anytime He chooses (of course), even without the sacramental absolution. So for minor sins, absolution isn’t necessarily required because God has already forgiven.

The more serious the sin is, the less confidence we can have that God will indeed forgive us for just asking. The more serious the sin, the more likely we will have to “make reparations” to God, to the human victims of our sins, or both.

Even for those minor sins, though, absolution is still necessary for our spiritual healing; not so much to be forgiven but to strengthen our relationship with God. If we fail to seek absolution, even though we might be forgiven, we are turning away from God’s mercy, we are in effect denying that we need healing, and that is a form of pride. Once that happens, we can no longer rely on “just saying I’m sorry” because we have reached the point where we’ve taken God’s mercy for granted. That’s why we always need sacramental confession and absolution.

 

[OldeThom]

Once again, thank you FrDavid! - I think I got lost in translation there for a bit, thanks for bringing me back. I have to approach things slowly and completely, to build a better me. I guess I hope you’ll see that I am interacting with God as if I were a contractor interacting with his architect, not as a plummer unplugging a toilet.

Your comment about reparations, as did this entire discussion, will help me get further, to penance, indulgences, prayer for the deceased, etc, leading to my next hurdle: purgatory.

I am amazed and often very disappointed when I ask protestant ministers or teachers about such things as John 6, John 20 and what happens to our souls after our mortal body dies. Most just try to circumnavigate the issues with other scripture, some actually say they don’t know or it is a mystery - actually hearing the word “mystery” come out of the mouth of a protestant apologist or teacher is quite alarming … maybe for them as well. (Remember I have no “high-church” experience either.)

I shall plug on, knowing I am on the right track.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[FrDavid96]

Once again, thank you FrDavid! - I think I got lost in translation there for a bit, thanks for bringing me back. I have to approach things slowly and completely, to build a better me. I guess I hope you’ll see that I am interacting with God as if I were a contractor interacting with his architect, not as a plummer unplugging a toilet.

Your comment about reparations, as did this entire discussion, will help me get further, to penance, indulgences, prayer for the deceased, etc, leading to my next hurdle: purgatory.

I am amazed and often very disappointed when I ask protestant ministers or teachers about such things as John 6, John 20 and what happens to our souls after our mortal body dies. Most just try to circumnavigate the issues with other scripture, some actually say they don’t know or it is a mystery - actually hearing the word “mystery” come out of the mouth of a protestant apologist or teacher is quite alarming … maybe for them as well. (Remember I have no “high-church” experience either.)

I shall plug on, knowing I am on the right track.

Respectfully,
Thom

Purgatory is an easy one to explain.

Say you are invited to dinner at the White House on a rainy day. You have your engraved invitation in-hand. You’ve passed the security clearance. On the way in, you step in some mud. What do you do? Answer: wipe your shoes off on the mat before you go inside.
Stopping at the entranceway for a moment doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get inside. You are on your way in, no one is stopping you, you just have to clean yourself up a little before you step onto the carpeting.

Purgatory is the same thing.

Too easy.

 

[OldeThom]

FrDavid, I’ve heard that one and seen it in action in “The Footprints of God” series with Steve Ray … <head-in-hands … giggling> … I’m not there yet and perhaps it is simple for you to explain (and believe) based on your familiarity and knowledge, it is not so for me. “Easy” is a relative term and not one I easily buy into. There is much more to purgatory than just the visual example, although charming.

Don’t want to sidetrack this thread though and not my intent.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[fbl9]

in regards to venail sins…at mass we begin with the Penitential Rite…it is here we can reiceve forgiveness/abosolution of venail sins…and in regards to forgiveness of mortal sin,forgiveness can be obtained without confession(perhaps except in extreme :murder) there has to be firm resovle to seek the sacrement of reconcillation,asp…if dieing and one commits a "perfect act"of contrition mortal sins are forgiven,but in this case it is presumptious to assume one can sin freely,and in the end commit an act of perfect contrition…

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid, I’ve heard that one and seen it in action in “The Footprints of God” series with Steve Ray … <head-in-hands … giggling> … I’m not there yet and perhaps it is simple for you to explain (and believe) based on your familiarity and knowledge, it is not so for me. “Easy” is a relative term and not one I easily buy into. There is much more to purgatory than just the visual example, although charming.

Don’t want to sidetrack this thread though and not my intent.

Respectfully,
Thom

Actually, I don’t know what you’re talking about (Footprints series). That’s just how a protestant minister once explained it to me.

Seriously. He called me on the phone one day so excited that he finally understood purgatory and he wanted to explain it to me. I stole it from him. I didn’t know he had stolen it from Steve Ray.

Can’t trust anybody nowadays.

I don’t think you’re hijacking the thread. Truthfully, this has been one of the most “on topic” threads I’ve ever participated in here.

In any case, just what is bothering you about purgatory? This is the place to ask.

 

[OldeThom]

FrDavid, No worries. The Church has been around for a very long time, it’s doctrine and practices are well researched, defined, and supported. I am sure by now nothing is truly new under the sun and many things are just being recycled in more creative ways. I am constantly amazed with how some individuals actually believe their argument is new or has some convincing argument or element no one has ever heard before … no offense intended to anyone. It’s like seeing a building, running up to the building, hitting your head against the building and then standing back and yelling, “See! I hit the building!”.

I use these forums to communicate my issues, not argue this or that point. I’ve already decided to join the Church, that is not in question. Nor can I be persuaded to turn back. God is leading me here and if every Christian who is in opposition to the Church would only stop and listen to God, put their bias, their fears and think what they know aside, they would find he is calling them to the Church as well.

I will have to get back to you on the issue of purgatory. I see threads on it here and on other forums I address. It may take me a few days, but I will come back to it. Thank you for diligence in responding.

Respectfully and gratefully,
Thom