Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and "pro choice" Catholics

[Benadam]

The people who commit theft ‘know’ they are doing something wrong and are breaking the law. Someone who has an abortion is not doing anything illegal, and they likely do not believe they are doing anything wrong or immoral either. As I posted earlier, laws are inneffective when the behavior is not universally viewed as wrong. That is why (on another thread) I made the statement that the most effective way to combat the issue to attempt to change hearts and minds. Laws (and government) cannot do that.

One way to change hearts is to teach them what is wrong by passing a law against doing what is wrong.

 

[Worthy5]

Government isn’t limited by outlawing abortion. Government is limited by laws that set it’s boundaries of power. There is no axiom that states that laws expand government power. Not outlawing abortion expands the power of government by making it a guardian of a false freedom. A freedom that imprisons the humanity of it’s citizens with govermnent guarding the door of the cell.

Quit making stuff up. :jrbirdman:

 

[gakroeger]

Despite what the really hard-core “pro-life” factions want you to believe, the Church does’t teach that, nor is it how the USCCB interprets Church teaching. People who assert otherwise are, at best, misinformed.

usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

You really should read the entire document, it is an excellent guide.

It appears to me if you like this document you must have read it very selectively, because to one who understands Church teaching this document should tell you very clearly you must not support intrinsic evil in our society. It clearly states that you must correctly form your conscience based on Church teaching not your political ideology.

For instance, did you read this particular paragraph…

“The Church equips its members to address political and social questions by
helping them to develop a well-formed conscience. Catholics have a serious and
lifelong obligation to form their consciences in accord with human reason and
the teaching of the Church. Conscience is not something that allows us to justify
doing whatever we want, nor is it a mere “feeling” about what we should or should
not do. Rather, conscience is the voice of God resounding in the human heart,
revealing the truth to us and calling us to do what is good while shunning what is
evil.”

 

[Worthy5]

It appears to me if you like this document you must have read it very selectively, because to one who understands Church teaching this document should tell you very clearly you must not support intrinsic evil in our society. It clearly states that you must correctly form your conscience based on Church teaching not your political ideology.

For instance, did you read this particular paragraph…

 

[Christopher68]

So now you have went from telling us what the Pope reay meant to what i really meant! !

I have NEVER referenced the Pope even once in this entire thread. Why are you lying?

And I don’t have to say what you really meant, as you did a fine job of explaining it.

 

[SteveGC]

So this justifies the Catholic Church telling how citizens of an independent free country how to use the coercive power of its governmental police force.

My goodness, Worthy…what are you so afraid of? Do you really dread abortion prohibition because as soon as it happens, the government sets a precedent that leads to some sort of evil dictatorship? So the government makes a law that says “no, you cannot kill an unborn child, not at any time after conception”…and then what? They and all future administrations use that as some sort of platform to…do what? Give me Worthy’s hypothesis as to how this sort of thing plays out…how does it evolve into chaos or communism or whatever you’re afraid it evolves into. And as you lead me through some of these steps, ask yourself how plausible or realistic you’re being with yourself, and us.

 

[Benadam]

I see this discussion has been redirected again by this ‘limited government’ nonsense. It’as a joke to pick out this law as the poster child for limited government and it’s a joke to to argue that it shouldn’t be passed because of the governments inability to address the drug problem or poverty.

 

[Lutheranteach]

That’s the pro-abortion position in a nutshell. One class of humans judges another class of humans as not worthy of full protection. It is of the same sort of judgement that rationalizes slavery, exploitation, and ethnic cleansing (to use that modern euphemism for mass murder).

– Mark L. Chance.

WOW!!! Those aren’t things the Catholic Chuch has had trouble with in the past:

A) The genocide of the peoples of central, south america and the carribean
B) Support of the slave trade
C) The Inquisition
D) Support for various dictators in their rise to power including Hitler, Franco and others knowing full well the repercussions waiting those that opposed these leaders
E) The Crusades

 

[Worthy5]

I see this discussion has been redirected again by this ‘limited government’ nonsense. It’as a joke to pick out this law as the poster child for limited government and it’s a joke to to argue that it shouldn’t be passed because of the governments inability to address the drug problem or poverty.

Well, that is not what the United States Supreme Court throught back in 1973 and reaffirmed in 1992.

"This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. "

 

[Worthy5]

WOW!!! Those aren’t things the Catholic Chuch has had trouble with in the past:

A) The genocide of the peoples of central, south america and the carribean
B) Support of the slave trade
C) The Inquisition
D) Support for various dictators in their rise to power including Hitler, Franco and others knowing full well the repercussions waiting those that opposed these leaders
E) The Crusades

Now, now, now my friend…Protestants had their take in the religious wars. :blackeye:

 

[gakroeger]

WOW!!! Those aren’t things the Catholic Chuch has had trouble with in the past:

A) The genocide of the peoples of central, south america and the carribean
B) Support of the slave trade
C) The Inquisition
D) Support for various dictators in their rise to power including Hitler, Franco and others knowing full well the repercussions waiting those that opposed these leaders
E) The Crusades

If you want to discuss this stuff, go to another thread, or start your own, please…

This is way off subject

 

[Worthy5]

My goodness, Worthy…what are you so afraid of? Do you really dread abortion prohibition because as soon as it happens, the government sets a precedent that leads to some sort of evil dictatorship? So the government makes a law that says “no, you cannot kill an unborn child, not at any time after conception”…and then what? They and all future administrations use that as some sort of platform to…do what? Give me Worthy’s hypothesis as to how this sort of thing plays out…how does it evolve into chaos or communism or whatever you’re afraid it evolves into. And as you lead me through some of these steps, ask yourself how plausible or realistic you’re being with yourself, and us.

Steve my friend, this poster gives you the words of Justice Blackmun, who delivered the opinion of the Court.

"This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. "
"

 

[gakroeger]

“Pro choice” just cannot debate the moral issue, they keep swinging back to the legal arguments.

Where did our two “pro choice” Catholics go?

 

[Benadam]

They have yet to make a Catholic cap with a ‘pro-choice’ patch in the front

 

[SteveGC]

Steve my friend, this poster gives you the words of Justice Blackmun, who delivered the opinion of the Court.

"This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. "
"

So Blackmun also feared excessive governmental control? This quote doesn’t support that argument, it seems. Rather, it simply emphasizes that Blackmun felt that the abortion decision and pregnancy termination was a private issue. I’m looking for some plausible version of an evolution of freedom-threatening government power as a result of a catalyst in the form of abortion prohibition.

 

[gakroeger]

Despite what the really hard-core “pro-life” factions want you to believe, the Church does’t teach that, nor is it how the USCCB interprets Church teaching. People who assert otherwise are, at best, misinformed.

usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

You really should read the entire document, it is an excellent guide.

Emphasis added

This stuck in my mind and I had to go back to it. “Hard-core pro-life”. I have heard hard-core used to describe pornography but never pro- life. However, I decided to do a google search on hardcore to see what I found. I found several pages of websites for pornography and music but nothing for pro life. Searches on online dictionaries produced much the same.

Then I found an Oxford University Press online encyclopedia at encyclopedia.com/doc/1O996-fervent.html , here is what it said;

**Hardcore **

fervent
• adjective a fervent prayer
synonyms : impassioned, passionate, intense, vehement, ardent, sincere, fervid, heartfelt; enthusiastic, zealous, fanatical, wholehearted, avid, eager, keen, committed, dedicated, devout; literary perfervid.
See note at eager.
antonym: apathetic.

Yep, that is us. Thank you BillP

Question for you, since you are 180 degrees from hard-core pro life, does the antonym apply to you?

 

[Worthy5]

So Blackmun also feared excessive governmental control? This quote doesn’t support that argument, it seems. Rather, it simply emphasizes that Blackmun felt that the abortion decision and pregnancy termination was a private issue. I’m looking for some plausible version of an evolution of freedom-threatening government power as a result of a catalyst in the form of abortion prohibition.

It is both, " personal liberty and restrictions upon state action" that is the policy of limited government. But really, given how you are looking at it, what is a " private issue" other than a women making the decision herself without public, " government" participation.

 

[Worthy5]

“Pro choice” just cannot debate the moral issue, they keep swinging back to the legal arguments.

Where did our two “pro choice” Catholics go?

Well my friend, that is because many, if not most Pro Choice Catholics, are not supporting the notion that abortion is moral----that is not their rationale for supporting the pro-choice position. This poster refers you to the words of Justice Blackmun, who delivered the opinion of the Court.

 

[estesbob]

Emphasis added

This stuck in my mind and I had to go back to it. “Hard-core pro-life”. I have heard hard-core used to describe pornography but never pro- life. However, I decided to do a google search on hardcore to see what I found. I found several pages of websites for pornography and music but nothing for pro life. Searches on online dictionaries produced much the same.

Then I found an Oxford University Press online encyclopedia at encyclopedia.com/doc/1O996-fervent.html , here is what it said;

**Hardcore **

fervent
• adjective a fervent prayer
synonyms : impassioned, passionate, intense, vehement, ardent, sincere, fervid, heartfelt; enthusiastic, zealous, fanatical, wholehearted, avid, eager, keen, committed, dedicated, devout; literary perfervid.
See note at eager.
antonym: apathetic.

Yep, that is us. Thank you BillP

Question for you, since you are 180 degrees from hard-core pro life, does the antonym apply to you?

Usually when you hear the term “hard core” pro-life you know it it being used by someone who has compromised their faith in favor of their Politics.

The question all Catholics should ask themselves is :

“Does you Faith form your politics or does your politics form your Faith”?

 

[Worthy5]

Usually when you hear the term “hard core” pro-life you know it it being used by someone who has compromised their faith in favor of their Politics.

The question all Catholics should ask themselves is :

“Does you Faith form your politics or does your politics form your Faith”?

Citizenship forms this poster’s politics.(or a good part of it)