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estesbob
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Maybe a disagreement among some posters but Church tecahing is very clear. We do not kill Children for the sins of their fathers.
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Worthy5
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You post should have been addressed to gakroeger.
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gakroeger
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The real tragedy is that people like yourself who have this opinion, and call yourselves “pro choice” Catholics give support to other “pro choice” Catholics who support abortion for any reason. Although your position may not be as wrong as other “pro choice” Catholics, it is still contrary to Church teaching and because you think one or two priests have absolved you, they are wrong if they support abortion in cases of rape and you need to rethink the scandal others may take from your “pro choice” pronouncement.
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gakroeger
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PS I would suggest that you pose this question to “Ask an apologist” on CAF
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ryecroft
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Thanks for the opinion- but I seriously believe that God gave us free will. You believe that a woman is abusing her free will by getting rid of something repulsive to many raped women that you would like to force the to live with. I believe your forcing your opinion on her by telling her that she has to live with something that was forcefully put into her and she should keep within her because of the chance (which most extremely pro-choice Catholics on here have repeded over and over is an extremely minute likelyhood) that she might conceive of this sick buggers sperm. If the woman want to try to hanle the situation the way you’d prefer than that is her RIGHT here in the US, UK, Canada and other countries - if she prefers to handle it another way than that is also her RIGHT in these countries. I’ve also heard of in other countries where it isn’t legal of women after words taking 5 birth control pills - my OBGYN told me that 5-8 pills depending on the strength has about the same effect as a morning after pill. It makes sure (the majority of the time) that these women that take them don’t get pregnant. I think it’s extremely WRONG of the Catholic Church (and yes, I’m a Catholic) to having made a media circus of the poor girl who’s father had committed incest with her I don’t know how many times- she wasn’t even a teen ager! Anyway they went after the mother, the doctors and some others who helped her get an abortion of the two pregnancies she was carrying in order to keep her from either dying or having some extremely harmful medical ramifications - yet as far as I’ve read and heard, the church hasn’t excommunicated that sick piece of humanity that got her pregnant - her biological father. I’m sorry to be on a sop box but that takes it too far. I realize that we have differing opinions on this and I’m not going to change your mind and you won’t change my mind. In my opinion the scandle of this situation may by most and apparently the Church be considered the abortions and letting the girl try to have a normal serious health problem free life but I believe the even greater scandal is the Church doing NOTHING visible to the father. If you’ve heard they’ve done something serious, please correct me and show me where you got your information.
We agree that abortion should not be used as birth control - I know that I have to agree that abortion when the mother’s life is in danger is valid as I’d be dead if it wern’t (as would the child I was carrying) - and I believe the woman should be able to choose (not that abortion should be done in 100% of rapes) if she believes her body and psychological state can handle however rare a pregnancy from rape.
I apologize for the soap box - and let me say, this isn’t just a couple of Priests - this is a large amount of Priests that don’t believe that abortion is always completely wrong.
God Bless Let me also say somthing I didn’t say before - In college, I was assaulted - I didn’t handle it through the police as I had seen the media circus the rape becomes and how it becomes the “alleged” rape often even with a rape kit done (I saved my underwear if it ever needed to go there though) - I was a little sister in a fraternity and when my big brother found out about this - well it wasn’t handled by the police. I have NO guilt over that. But I also know that when I finally got back to my dorm room, I wanted to rip out or destoy anything that had this piece of filths touch orsmell or anything on it. I was already on the pill but took a couple of extra just in case (I wasn’t sexually active except for this situation until I was well into my 20’s) I couldn’t remember everything as I had been slipped something but it wasn’t enough to knock me out completely and cause me not to remember - I wish it had been - but I remembered enough. That’s why I’m so staunch with this. I wanted to get out everything of his by any means possible.
Ryecroft
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gakroeger
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Dear ryecroft
Please don’t think me insensitive or judgmental, I most certainly have compassion for your personal situation and can understand your emotional involvement in your real life experiences and how it has affected your outlook. In your situation I may feel the same way. My concern is that I have been involved in the pro life movement and have seen the reality of abortion. Over 40 million humans are not living in the U.S. today because of abortion, less than 1% of these abortions were because of rape or incest, less than 6% were because of concerns for the mother’s health. This means the over 93% of abortions were simply because those responsible did not want to take responsibility. Planned Parenthood and those involved in the abortion industry use rape, incest, and the mother’s health as THE reason to continue the mass slaughter of our young. Focusing on this small area of abortion and disregarding the 93% is so sad and irresponsible.
IMHO the reason we have reached this level of insensitivity for the unborn is that we have allowed our society to devalue human life to the point where otherwise good and honest people are willing to look the other way while this tragedy continues.
The United States and other Western Countries are in economic and cultural breakdown because of abortion; each culture need a certain level of births to maintain their economy and culture; many European cultures are already doomed to extinction because their birth rates have fallen below this required level. This is the reason that the Islamic culture is taking over many of the European cultures in France, Britain, and others. In the U.S. we have to rely on illegal immigration to fill the void left by abortion, this obviously is threatening the U.S. economy and culture.
You indicate that you agree that abortion should not be used for birth control but you also indicate that you also agree with other forms of artificial birth control. This is where the devaluation of human life began. If you have read other posts on this thread you have seen how this began with the decoupling the marriage act from reproduction. When this happened our culture started acting like sex outside of marriage was a right of all people (contrary to Church teaching). If you are Catholic and you have not read Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, you need to do so. Also, as I recommended above you need to ask an apologist about your misinformed conscience.
It would also be helpful if you would clarify your position regarding abortion outside of the two conditions you refer to so other “pro choice” Catholics on this thread do not think they have an ally in you.
I also apologize for the soap box, God bless you, you are in my prayers.
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Benadam
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In the case of rape, I hope I would be able to overcome identifying the person growing in the womb as the biological father.
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Worthy5
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Thanks Garoeger. Now here is a question for you and your impassioned friends on this page. What are YOU and YOUR friends doing personally to help solve the abortion problem. What specific efforts are you doing on a weekly if not day to day basis to help solve this problem. Instead of sitting on the soap box, get up off your seat and tell us all what you, and all those friends of yours, are doing. Perhaps that might be the greatest argument you can make. Perhaps the rest of us, who you assume to know our positions on this subject, can follow your lead.
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SteveGC
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…or as “something replusive that I’m being forced to live with…”
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estesbob
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Thanks Garoeger. Now here is a question for you and your impassioned friends on this page. What are YOU and YOUR friends doing personally to help solve the abortion problem. What specific efforts are you doing on a weekly if not day to day basis to help solve this problem. Instead of sitting on the soap box, get up off your seat and tell us all what you, and all those friends of yours, are doing. Perhaps that might be the greatest argument you can make. Perhaps the rest of us, who you assume to know our positions on this subject, can follow your lead.
Spent 5 years counesling in a CPC. Provide my time, talents and money to the pro-life ministry. Campaign for and vote for pro-life canidates NEVER support canidates who support abortion on demand.
Of course none of this matters. I oppose the death penalty , for instance, but that doesn’t mean i should be required to let convicted killers live with me.
Abortion is an intrinsic evil. it is NEVER justifed and whether one actively works to stop it or not does not change this simple fact.
Spent 5 years counesling in a CPC. Provide my time, talents and money to the pro-life ministry. Campaign for and vote for pro-life canidates NEVER support canidates who support abortion on demand.
Of course none of this matters. I oppose the death penalty , for instance, but that doesn’t mean i should be required to let convicted killers live with me.
Abortion is an intrinsic evil. it is NEVER justifed and whether one actively works to stop it or not does not change this simple fact.
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estesbob
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Spent 5 years counesling in a CPC. Provide my time, talents and money to the pro-life ministry. Campaign for and vote for pro-life canidates NEVER support canidates who support abortion on demand.Thanks Garoeger. Now here is a question for you and your impassioned friends on this page. What are YOU and YOUR friends doing personally to help solve the abortion problem. What specific efforts are you doing on a weekly if not day to day basis to help solve this problem. Instead of sitting on the soap box, get up off your seat and tell us all what you, and all those friends of yours, are doing. Perhaps that might be the greatest argument you can make. Perhaps the rest of us, who you assume to know our positions on this subject, can follow your lead.
Of course none of this matters. I oppose the death penalty , for instance, but that doesn’t mean i should be required to let convicted killers live with me.
Abortion is an intrinsic evil. it is NEVER justifed and whether one actively works to stop it or not does not change this simple fact.
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estesbob
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It is sad to see a child refered to as "something repulsive .More to point, however, how do you reconcile your opinion with the clear teahcings of our Church?
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jmcrae
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She’s not “a piece” of anything - she’s a whole and complete, brand new, innocent child.
Well, let’s apply the Golden Rule, here. Say your father commits a crime that you know nothing about - he committed it, let’s say, nine months before you were born. Furthermore, it was something terrible that he did to your mother, to the point that she was hospitalized and needed counseling to overcome it. Would you agree to be immersed in acid until you dissolve, or else have your limbs torn off of you piece by piece until finally you bleed to death, as expiation for his crime?
You’re probably about to say, “But the kid doesn’t actually feel anything, or know what’s going on.” Actually, we have no way of knowing what the child feels, or what emotions she experiences during an abortion.
Have you ever seen the movie “The Silent Scream” where footage of an abortion shows the baby fighting off the forceps and dodging around them for her life, and then the final scene where the little mouth opens in terror, as her head is pulled off?
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fix
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That is the point. Certain moral actions are always wrong no matter who does what or not. But, that truth is dismissed for various reasons.
So-called “pro choice” positions cannot be reconciled with the Truth.
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gakroeger
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Worthy5:
Well based on your attitude, I would guess considerably more than you. I find it interesting that people on your side of this debate always end up with the philosophy that the best defense is a good (though unreasonable) offenseThanks Garoeger. Now here is a question for you and your impassioned friends on this page. What are YOU and YOUR friends doing personally to help solve the abortion problem. What specific efforts are you doing on a weekly if not day to day basis to help solve this problem. Instead of sitting on the soap box, get up off your seat and tell us all what you, and all those friends of yours, are doing. Perhaps that might be the greatest argument you can make. Perhaps the rest of us, who you assume to know our positions on this subject, can follow your lead.
Other then participating in the many prayer groups, pro life ministries, financial support to pro life groups, financial support to homes for unwed mothers, 10 to 20 hours per week of volunteer work with SVDP and the Knights of Columbus, nothing much.
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gakroeger
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I don’t understand this argument, I have seen other “pro choice” Catholics use the same argument. Can you explain how this justifies abortion? What is the differance between using your God given “free will” to shoot an innocent person between the eyes and aborting a baby in a womb?
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Worthy5
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Yes it does matter, if you want to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
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Worthy5
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That is great to hear gakroeger, keep it up. Spend more time if you can, and let others worry about themselves.
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jmcrae
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We do - which you then criticize as being “invasion of privacy,” when we rescue pregnant girls and help them with free medical treatments during their pregnancy, or picketing abortion clinics, or praying for the unborn, or sending cards in to our elected representatives, or setting up homes for unwed mothers (and then we get vilified because we don’t let the girls just sit around and eat bon-bons all day long - they are expected to contribute to the housework, and to be going to school or working) - can’t win for losing, as far as I can tell.
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estesbob
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Yes it does matter, if you want to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
So moral truths are dependent on people defending them? Sounds like like relatavism to me.
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