Reconciling Evolution with Adam and Eve

[Esran]

I just hope they don’t come to my parish, where our gay choir director and his baritone partner are beloved by all, and where the priests are learned, generous, kind, and compassionate.

You’ve crossed the line, Petrus. First, for condoning this behavior, then, by mentioning it to cause scandal and spite to the Catholics you are debating. You know the teachings of the Lord on this matter. Now I see your true colors. I found the statements some made to others in this thread disgusting, but yours is absolutely repulsive. Where is your Christian charity and morality?

I demand this thread closed before anyone else sins here.

 

[Esran]

And saintly women as well?

You know what I mean. Women are included in men, indeed, a “womb”-man, or woman, is a man with a womb.

Stop posting now.

 

[Steve40]

Steve40, I also have empirical proof – from spending time with my kids on a merry-go-round in the park – that the entire world revolves around my children and me.

Mach and Eistien have documented correspondence that discusses the possibility that the correolous effect could be the result of the the mass of the universe moving around the earth just as well as the earth turning. It is similar to a washer machine where in one type of machine the center moves while in the other type the drum move around a stationary center. In either case there is relative motion resulitng in what on earth would be consider the correolous effect.

 

[Steve40]

Steve40, it sounds like you’re implying the usual bogus rhetoric from the young earth creationist playbook about “origins science” and “operation science,” a totally bogus distinction. The U-shaped canyons in which glaciers now sit are the same U-shaped canyons carved by glaciers over hundreds of thousands of years. The layers of the Grand Canyons were laid down over tens of millions of years, just as rivers today are laying down lawyers of silt and gravel that will become – tens of millions of years from now – new strata.

And your argumentation is so tragically unnecessary, as our Catholic faith does not demand the young earth you have been claiming it does.

Petrus

It is unnecessary for you perhaps, I’m not your judge but as long as theories can be questioned they should be questioned.

As for our Catholic faith it is very important to hold to the literal meaning of Sacred Scripture unless by necessity we are to depart from it. This rule was layed down by St. Augustine and reiterated by Pope Leo the XIII. Both the age of the earth and the development of humanity by evolution are unproven theories. Therefore we should hold to Scripture as both the good Saint and Pope of happy memory have instructed us. You already believe that God did not perform a global judgement upon the earth through the flood waters. What other areas of our faith are we going to disregard before we take hold and listen to the Pope Leo, Pope Peter and many of the Saints of old. Moderism is an ensideous heresy that eats away at the Church like a cancer.

 

[Steve40]

Doesn’t bother me in the least since you don’t seem to understand much if any science.You’re welcome.

Peace

Tim

Lack of understanding is my specialty. I’m glad you are seeing me at my best. Do you ever feel like Jona? To hell with Ninava I could care less what they think, he would say. Occationally I feel that way, but then I realize that Jona ended up in the belly of a whale with that attitude.

If I end up in the belly of the whale pray for me Tim. I’ll do the same for you.

 

[Steve40]

Yes – it’s evolution in action! Descent with modification. If 99.9% of a bacterial population are killed by an antibiotic, the .1% that survive multiply and pass on their resistance to the next generation.

Where is the proof that this happened by mutation? That 1% may have been designed with the resistence and we just didn’t see it until we cleared away all the others. Natural selection is the result of information which was always there which becomes more visible as sections of the population die off.

 

[Steve40]

Ferdinand Mary:

Dear Steve40,

You have received an infraction at Catholic Answers Forums.

[post]2844511[/post]

Reason:​

Inappropriate Language

Dear Steve40,

Please do not try to circumvent the language censoring program again.​

This infraction is worth 3 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

This action is visible only to Mods, Admins and you. Regular forum members will not see it.

Sincerely,
Catholic Answers Forums

No problem. I think it would be a better policy if you publicly disciplined the offense this way others could learn as well. I’ll post this with an apology. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my misuse of the English language.

Steve

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Steve40, how do you explain that the first three “days” of Genesis 1 occurred before God created the sun? What kind of days were they without a rising and setting sun? And where did the light come from?

 

[Orogeny]

If I end up in the belly of the whale pray for me Tim. I’ll do the same for you.

It’s a deal!!!

Peace

Tim

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

Well, this is my view of Creation if anyone cares. All other beings on Earth, they evolved through billions of years. Humans were created out of the dust by God. Dirt. Not through evolution. By the hand of God. Many have come to me and tried to convince me otherwise. They said it does not contradict the Church’s teachings. They say it is perfectly reasonable. I say no. No amount of talk will dissuade me. I am resolute in this matter, (and the sex thing, but that is a another discussion entirely). Well, it felt good to get that out.

 

[drpmjhess]

Mach and Eistien have documented correspondence that discusses the possibility that the correolous effect could be the result of the the mass of the universe moving around the earth just as well as the earth turning. .

And I’m saying that when I’m on the merry-go-round it really is the entire universe that is revolving around us, while my kids and I are stationary. I’ve experienced it with my own eyes!

 

[drpmjhess]

You already believe that God did not perform a global judgement upon the earth through the flood waters.

Steve40, if you can show me where the water came from to cover the earth to a depth of 29,035 feet, and how Noah and three sons built the ark without power tools and lifting cranes, and how he got the marsupials to swim and run 7,000 miles over from Australia and then swim back again, and how he crammed at least two exemplars each of 30 million species on the ark, and how he disposed of 500,000 pounds of manure per day, and how he fit enough aquaria outfitted with fresh- and salt-water and filtration and oxygenation machines on the ark to keep all the fish and marine mammals alive for the duration of the flood, and how the herbivores lived for the first year after the flood until the vegetation grew back enough to feed them, and how the carnivores survived for three or four years until the herbivore population had increased sufficiently to feed them without extinguishing the herbivores – if you can educate me on these points, that might go some way toward convincing me you have a case for a literal interpretation of Genesis 6-9.

Petrus

 

[Benadam]

Benadam, I agree with what you say about Adam embodying humanity. I meant that we are genetically linked in greater or lesser degrees of proximity with all other livig things (98% genetic commonality with chimpanzees, for example). Alec could comment on this with greater precision and clarity.

Petrus

Petrus, thank you for the clarification. Also, you are the first at this site to find the body of Adam concept agreeable. It sounds crude to some but us Christians believe God stooped so low as to become an animal, a primate, a human.

The personifaction of entire peoples is a common biblical theme. I believe the Samaritan woman Jesus spoke to at the well was so profoundly moved by Jesus because the pattern of her life was a reflection of the life of the Samaritan people. She had five husbands and the one that she was with now was really not her husband, does that sound like a familiar pattern? The Universal theme of a female with seven males is not only biblical but repeated in tales such as Snow White.

This may interest you Petrus, it’s not Catholic but this guy has some interesting ideas and presents a few pretty cool things like the Mandelbrot set. The Amazing Mandelbrot Set

 

[drpmjhess]

Petrus, thank you for the clarification. Also, you are the first at this site to find the body of Adam concept agreeable. It sounds crude to some but us Christians believe God stooped so low as to become an animal, a primate, a human.

This may interest you Petrus, it’s not Catholic but this guy has some interesting ideas and presents a few pretty cool things like the Mandelbrot set.

Benadam, thanks for the Mandelbrot set link. In my work with physicists at conferences I’ve often heard presentation on fractals, but I’m not enough of a mathematician to think more than that they are beautiful. And although I reject “intelligent design” as a principle for use in the science laboratory, I find the idea of fractal design in nature fascinating.

Regarding “stooping” to creation, I’ve always thought that it is not at all odd that a God who would become incarnate and lie in a manger would also incarnate the entire history of DNA on earth. A few days ago I posted the paragraph from Father John Zahm’s book “Evolution and Dogma,” in which he suggests that all creation is ennobled when we recognize that humans emerged from that very creation.

There is some interesting thinking going in the subfield of “exo-theology” – that is, theology done in light of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. In film there seem to be two typical presentations of extraterrestrial life: it is portrayed either (1) as Christ-like, as in “E.T.” or “Starman;” or (2) as demonic, as in “Alien” or “Independence Day.” Most theologians I know agree that when we find life in the universe it will have evolved under analogous circumstances, on planets with finite resources, and thus with lethal competition for survival. Therefore intelligent life will probably be “simul iustus et peccator” – both saved and yet a sinner.

The implication is that God would have atoning work to do on other on other planets as well. In the seventeenth century some theologians feared that this implied multiple “crucifixions” (or other atoning passions) of the Incarnate Word throughout the cosmos. There would be other types of “Adam” to which the second person of the Trinity stands as anti-type. Incarnational theology, therefore is not restricted to earth, but permeates the universe, as we would expect.

Petrus

 

[Benadam]

Benadam, thanks for the Mandelbrot set link. In my work with physicists at conferences I’ve often heard presentation on fractals, but I’m not enough of a mathematician to think more than that they are beautiful. And although I reject “intelligent design” as a principle for use in the science laboratory, I find the idea of fractal design in nature fascinating.

Petrus

Your welcome. I guess intelligent design theology would find support with the Mandelbrot Set, I really don’t know much about it. I apply the Mandelbrot Set to fallen man subject to nature and it’s patterns and God’s revelation manifesting His Word within that order. For that reason I believe human life can be categorized within that pattern ( astrology) as if we are not self determined creatures. Incidentally I think humanity transcended that in the era that the higher faculties were developing to their fullness by means of God’s blessing to rule the earth. From the time when Adam was alone to the time it was no longer a good thing. The naming of the animals is interesting because to name something it has to be known and to know something fully is to ‘be’ that something. “I and the Father are One” If you have seen me you have seen the Father"

I have to confess that exo-theology presents much higher theological hurdles to reconcile for me. The highest one for me is being able to reconcile extraterrestrials that are self determined moral agents with the all encompassing quality of the Hypostatic Union.

 

[drpmjhess]

I have to confess that exo-theology presents much higher theological hurdles to reconcile for me. The highest one for me is being able to reconcile extraterrestrials that are self determined moral agents with the all encompassing quality of the Hypostatic Union.

Benadam, I agree that “exo-theology” – or more accurately, “theology as if the rest of the universe mattered” present us with some interesting questions, including multiple incarnations and atonements. And until SETI or NASA confirm a message from ET intelligence, it remains in the realm of speculation.

But we now know that the universe contains a hundred billion galaxies with an average of a hundred billion stars each. I cannot agree with one of my theology profs from back in the early 1970s (a conservative Jesuit) who declared it heretical for me to consider whether there might be intelligent life elsewhere than on the earth. I am reminded of a far-thinking 17th century priest who asked, “you cannot seriously believe, can you, that all those stars were created simply to twinkle at us?!”

Petrus

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I’m just sick at heart. I’ve never in my entire life met Catholics like this. I spent weekends on retreats with nuns, i’ve traveled for weeks on end with nuns, studied under priests who were theologians, been part of tons of discussions about abortion, gay rights, evolution, and on and on and never never have I been treated with such hatred and condenscending arrogance as by folks on this site. I have no idea where they come from. Hopefully this is their limited and only real voice. The church is doomed if they gain control.

Hi SpiritMeadow,

Something I’ve noticed about online forums in general is that they tend to attract people with the most extreme ideas. Or at least those people post a lot more than the average person. If you have mainstream ideas, there just isn’t as much reason to post them… it’s when your ideas need constant defense that you have to keep posting and posting and posting

This isn’t meant as an insult to anyone, especially people who take Genesis literally. It’s just an observation about online forums.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Benadam, thanks for the Mandelbrot set link. In my work with physicists at conferences I’ve often heard presentation on fractals, but I’m not enough of a mathematician to think more than that they are beautiful. And although I reject “intelligent design” as a principle for use in the science laboratory, I find the idea of fractal design in nature fascinating.

Regarding “stooping” to creation, I’ve always thought that it is not at all odd that a God who would become incarnate and lie in a manger would also incarnate the entire history of DNA on earth. A few days ago I posted the paragraph from Father John Zahm’s book “Evolution and Dogma,” in which he suggests that all creation is ennobled when we recognize that humans emerged from that very creation.

There is some interesting thinking going in the subfield of “exo-theology” – that is, theology done in light of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. In film there seem to be two typical presentations of extraterrestrial life: it is portrayed either (1) as Christ-like, as in “E.T.” or “Starman;” or (2) as demonic, as in “Alien” or “Independence Day.” Most theologians I know agree that when we find life in the universe it will have evolved under analogous circumstances, on planets with finite resources, and thus with lethal competition for survival. Therefore intelligent life will probably be “simul iustus et peccator” – both saved and yet a sinner.

The implication is that God would have atoning work to do on other on other planets as well. In the seventeenth century some theologians feared that this implied multiple “crucifixions” (or other atoning passions) of the Incarnate Word throughout the cosmos. There would be other types of “Adam” to which the second person of the Trinity stands as anti-type. Incarnational theology, therefore is not restricted to earth, but permeates the universe, as we would expect.

Petrus

LOL…when I read that your last paragraph an image flashed in my mind…Jesus in a tom sawyerish kind of torn jeans, straw hat with his napsack, moving from solar system to solar system…what an intinerant preacher! …Thanks Petrus, you provite such gems some days…i’ll keep that image of Christ for a good long time. :heaven:

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hi SpiritMeadow,

Something I’ve noticed about online forums in general is that they tend to attract people with the most extreme ideas. Or at least those people post a lot more than the average person. If you have mainstream ideas, there just isn’t as much reason to post them… it’s when your ideas need constant defense that you have to keep posting and posting and posting

This isn’t meant as an insult to anyone, especially people who take Genesis literally. It’s just an observation about online forums.

Yep, i’ve come to the same conclusion. I actually never thought of myself as particularly liberal at least from the parishes I’ve been with. And i’ve usually worked in my parishes, so I knew my priest, the nuns and a ton of the parishioners quite well. I’d always heard there were some very conservative types but I guess they never spoke up. Here there are anonymous, and can collect in numbers sufficient to be a presence. The ultra right does the same. Those of us in the middle, well we feel mostly in shock. Concepts we’ve taken for granted for years both in our towns and in our churches are here called heretical…It makes ya think you are nuts for a while…LOL…

 

[drpmjhess]

Yep, i’ve come to the same conclusion. I actually never thought of myself as particularly liberal at least from the parishes I’ve been with.

SpiritMeadow, thank you for both items. comments:

(1) Christ is unique, just as the human Jesus is unique. But – assuming that the Trinity is ontologically necessary for the whole cosmos – intelligent, morally and spiritually responsive beings on other planets would recognize God as triune. Assuming that it is the “job description” (in the Trinitarian economy) of the second person to become incarnate as revealing “Word,” the “Son” would become incarnate in a suitably-prepared indigenous monotheism on other planets and would become known as whatever analogy to “Christ” (= “anointed”) is appropriate to that culture. It’s not Jesus the God-Man who migrates inter-planetarily. And, in fact, there is no theological reason why God could into become incarnate in different cultures simultaneously as well as sequentially. Earth would have no monopoly on the hypostatic union, as God unites the whole morally responsive cosmos to "him"self. The interesting thing to contemplate would be a galactic inter-faith gathering at which terrestrial Christians and extraterrestrial “Christians” would compare their divine objects of worship! (This will probably never be anything but a hypothetical, given the astronomical cost of interstellar conference travel.)

(2) The labels “liberal” and “conservative” are not very useful to me, which is why I don’t belong to a political party. I wear short hair, have no tattoos or body piercings, and wear a coat and tie whenever I teach (which most faculty don’t wear). I love Latin Masses and sing baritone in our Schola Cantorum. For these things, I am branded “conservative” by the local hippies and cool people. On the other hand, I have views on other matters (including sexuality, global warming, and the rapidly approaching end of affordable oil) that tie-wearing people brand as heretically “liberal” and untenable by faithful Catholics. So I live as I do, I serve the kingdom as I must, I seek integrity in belief, and I pray as I can. I assume we all live this way!

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus