Reconciling Humani Generis with the human genetic data showing that there never were just two first parents

  • Thread starter Thread starter Allyson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve already studied this.
Then you should know that survival of the fittest does not mean survival of the superior. Being “fittest” is being fit enough survival the environmental pressures you are facing. Those pressures are always changing. Sometimes the change is quick with dramatic effects like mass extinction events. Gradual changes like the end of an ice age will also cause extinction events.
 
That is an explanation that doesn’t explain anything. It is another example of: They survived because they survived. Evolution has no useful explanatory capability.
 
Right now, based on all the evidence, including posts on this forum, it turns out the only use evolution has is to explain man as nothing. Nothing special. If you look, you can find articles saying that man is not exceptional – especially compared to other animals. This is the exact opposite of the truth.

You/man = chemicals. Nothing more. Uh… no.
This seems to be John Paul II’s position, that evolution is not a sign of human dignity. The spiritual soul is the source of our dignity, and it is not a consequence of evolution. Saying the evolution does not go beyond the competence of science is not a criticism. If evolution is used to deny that people have rational souls, that steps past what science can say. But if you are basing your argument on evolution not recognizing the importance of humanity, you have a problem. Evolution does not say that because it can not talk about the soul.
It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God. Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person.
John Paul II. 1996
 
That is an explanation that doesn’t explain anything. It is another example of: They survived because they survived. Evolution has no useful explanatory capability.
Actually, it explains a lot, but you appear to have a cognitive bias against understanding the theory of evolution for what it is. I can’t fix your bias; I can only explain how I understand it works. It is on you to step outside your bias and consider another view.
 
Last edited:
Actually, it explains a lot, but you appear to have a cognitive bias against understanding the theory of evolution for what it is. I can’t fix your bias; I can only explain how I understand it works. It is on you to step outside your bias and consider another view.
Back at you… 😀
 
Back at you… 😀
Except for the part where I explained how I once considered ID (Discovery Institute and Behe) to be a useful approach until I weighed all the options. I rejected that form of ID for good reasons because I stepped outside the arguements. I am always open to revision, are you?
 
Evolution says nothing about souls. Point two: Attempts are being made to reduce man to being the end result of purely physical forces. That argument has nothing to do with souls. Pope John Paul II was particularly critical of materialist thinking in that regard. So, forgetting the soul, man is not a physical construct that just happened to come into being. And what are students getting in Biology textbooks?

“Humans represent just one tiny, largely fortuitous, and late-arising twig on the enormously arborescent bush of life.”
(Stephen J Gould quoted in Biology, by Peter H Raven & George B Johnson (5th ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pg 15; (6th ed., McGraw Hill, 2000), pg. 16.)

“By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous.”
(Evolutionary Biology, by Douglas J. Futuyma (3rd ed., Sinauer Associates Inc., 1998), p. 5.)
 
Last edited:
40.png
Freddy:
I guess everyone who uses the term Homo neanderthalensis which is their sub species name.
Do all hominid subspecies lack rational souls simply because someone chooses to label some sub species as irrational? Reality is independent of the thinking mind. Physical differences do not evidence the kind of soul animating beings whose bodies could possess either irrational or rational souls.
We are not descended from Neanderthals and they are not decended from us.
Why do some continue to post articles of faith as science facts? The strongest statement for your claims is “presently, evidence suggests that”.

Did the Neanderthals interbreed with other sub species? If the result of reproduction with a human is a Neanderman then Neanderthals are not extinct but continue in us.

The DNA evidence suggest they did. One of the few tenants of whatever “speciation” really means is that different species cannot successfully interbreed. If Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens successfully reproduced then the subspecies designation for both appears just as meaningless as species.
I don’t believe in souls. But it appears that some people, you included, correlate the posession of souls with a rational mind. As Neanderthals were rational beings I just wanted to know if you considered that they did not have souls. If not, then one of the criteria - rationality, appears to be incorrect.

If they did, then presently, evidence suggests that they split from our lineage after the point at which we rational humans had souls. Which, present evidence suggests that date was a half million years ago.

So if, at present, accepting that the evidence suggests that actually happened, are you in agreement with it?

And to save me some typing, can we all accept that science is provisional and that all scientific comments are assumed to be proceeded with “presently, evidence suggests that…”. An example you say? OK:

Presently, evidence suggests that the theory of evolution is the best explanation for the process by which we have arrived at this point.

Yes, I know it’s a waste of time pointing that out but it seems we have reached a point where it is necessary.
 
Last edited:
A paper that may interest you is Science, Theology, and Monogenesis by Kenneth W. Kemp.
I’ve heard of this several times but never actually read it until now. Thank you for this post. It makes a lot sense.
 
Last edited:
The question is over the origin of the human body. It is the body that carries the “human genetic data” that this thread is discussing.
It’s been said… God The Creator Created Man’s Body and Soul… Created…
 
It’s been said… God The Creator Created Man’s Body and Soul… Created…
And science looks at the method God used to create that body. To quite HG, science “inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter”.
 
40.png
rossum:
And science looks at the method God used to create that body.
Man’s ‘science’ always accepts God as Creator?
If the scientist believes in God, then probably yes.

God uses different ways to create.

The soul is created immediately by God. God could create the body that way.

God creates the Church by sending the Apostles to baptize all nations.

If God creates human bodies by using evolution or reproduction, then God is given the credit for establishing the systems used for procreation or evolution.
 
Man’s ‘science’ always accepts God as Creator?
No. Some men accept YHWH as the creator. Some accept the Christian God, some accept Allah, some accept Vishnu, some accept various other deities. An agnostic scientist will ignore the question as not relevant and an atheist scientist will deny the existence of a creator.

Scientists vary, just as any mix of humans will vary.
 
Sorry. I guess I do not understand the question. I have answered as best as I can.
The Church’s Magisterium is directly concerned with the question of evolution, for it involves the conception of man: Revelation teaches us that he was created in the image and likeness of God. The Conciliar Constitution Gaudium et Spes magnificently explained this doctrine, which is pivotal to Christian thought. It recalled that man is ‘the only creature on earth that God has wanted for its own sake’. In other terms, the human individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or a pure instrument, either to the species or to society; he has value per se . He is a person. With his intellect and his will, he is capable of forming a relationship of communion, solidarity and self-giving with his peers. St. Thomas observes that man’s likeness to God resides especially in his speculative intellect, for his relationship with the object of his knowledge resembles God’s relationship with what he has created. But even more, man is called to enter into a relationship of knowledge and love with God himself, a relationship which will find its complete fulfilment beyond time, in eternity. All the depth and grandeur of this vocation are revealed to us in the mystery of the risen Christ. It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God.
St John Paul II. 1996
Maybe this will answer your question? We have quoted most of the rest of this speech…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top