Reconciling PFLAG mentality with the catholic church

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thepocketmouse

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One of the major moral conflict that I’m having is that a lot of my friends are gay. I, personally, can be attracted to anyone regardless of gender, but am dating a man. I’ve seen how beautiful love between two people of the same gender can be, and my heart cannot accept that this might be wrong.

I understand what the bible says, but OT uses the same terms in some places to describe things that we as Catholics have no problem with, like shellfish, and approves things we now vehemently reject, such as taking slaves from neighboring countries and killing people who commit adultery. And it’s not like the human race is in danger of dying out from lack of procreation like it was in the earlier parts of the OT. We have sort of the opposite problem now.

Can I be Catholic and be accepting of homosexuality, just seeing it as another way to love? Or does this ultimately mean that I cannot be part of the Church?

It bothers me because I can’t do it. I can’t take that stance that what homosexual people do is wrong. I can’t take the side against gay marriage. That mindset hurts people. It kills people. Despair over not being able to marry the person they love has caused so many suicides. I can’t be part of that. Not won’t. Can’t. I can’t follow a God of love and be part of the source of so much pain - and I can’t believe that the Church, in spirit, was meant to do this.

I can’t look at the anti-homosexuality crowd and see a group of people protecting the sanctity of marriage. I’ve seen things from the other side. All I can see is the children whose parents reject them and make them homeless (do you know just how common that is?), the teenagers bullied until they eventually give up and kill themselves, the people who live in shame because if they’re barred from loving another, they’re losing a huge part of their lives, all because they can’t love someone of the opposite sex. It’s cruel, and I can’t do it.

Does that mean I can’t be Catholic? I hate that thought, because even though I’m a fairly recent convert, I’ve come to love the Church and Jesus. Has anyone else been through this? How did you come to terms with it? How did you find peace?
 
You are Catholic, by being baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. NO ONE can take that away from you, not even yourself!

I go to a fantastic parish that has an LGBT ministry and is welcoming to all. They have a refreshing perspective. I recommend you find a parish like this too. I feel very welcome as an ally to and advocate for my gay brothers and sisters at these parishes.

newwaysministry.org/gfp.html
 
thepocketmouse said:
That mindset hurts people. It kills people. Despair over not being able to marry the person they love has caused so many suicides. the people who live in shame because if they’re barred from loving another
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What law forbids them to live however they want together? There is a difference between forbidding something and simply not recognizing it. It is a myth that they are “barred” from anything.
I can’t look at the anti-homosexuality crowd and see a group of people protecting the sanctity of marriage.
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The crowd isn’t anti anything. They are taking a defensive position to protect their social order. The crowd you talk about is resisting changes you propose to make to our national laws that redefines terms like marriage and parent. They aren’t taking any action against you. You are taking action against the current social order to make a change to the social structure of our country.
 
thepocketmouse said:
One of the major moral conflict that I’m having is that a lot of my friends are gay. I, personally, can be attracted to anyone regardless of gender, but am dating a man. I’ve seen how beautiful love between two people of the same gender can be, and my heart cannot accept that this might be wrong.

I understand what the bible says, but OT uses the same terms in some places to describe things that we as Catholics have no problem with, like shellfish, and approves things we now vehemently reject, such as taking slaves from neighboring countries and killing people who commit adultery. And it’s not like the human race is in danger of dying out from lack of procreation like it was in the earlier parts of the OT. We have sort of the opposite problem now.

Can I be Catholic and be accepting of homosexuality, just seeing it as another way to love? Or does this ultimately mean that I cannot be part of the Church?

It bothers me because I can’t do it. I can’t take that stance that what homosexual people do is wrong. I can’t take the side against gay marriage. That mindset hurts people. It kills people. Despair over not being able to marry the person they love has caused so many suicides. I can’t be part of that. Not won’t. Can’t. I can’t follow a God of love and be part of the source of so much pain - and I can’t believe that the Church, in spirit, was meant to do this.

I can’t look at the anti-homosexuality crowd and see a group of people protecting the sanctity of marriage. I’ve seen things from the other side. All I can see is the children whose parents reject them and make them homeless (do you know just how common that is?), the teenagers bullied until they eventually give up and kill themselves, the people who live in shame because if they’re barred from loving another, they’re losing a huge part of their lives, all because they can’t love someone of the opposite sex. It’s cruel, and I can’t do it.

Does that mean I can’t be Catholic? I hate that thought, because even though I’m a fairly recent convert, I’ve come to love the Church and Jesus. Has anyone else been through this? How did you come to terms with it? How did you find peace?
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I hope that for your sake, you become Catholic for the right reasons. If you still cannot accept the Church’s teaching on Homosexuality and Homosexual activity, then you are not being honest with yourself or with others. There will be a point in your life where you’ll have a “Take it or Leave it” situation. Choose well.
 
thepocketmouse said:
Does that mean I can’t be Catholic? I hate that thought, because even though I’m a fairly recent convert, I’ve come to love the Church and Jesus. Has anyone else been through this? How did you come to terms with it? How did you find peace?
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Did you go all the way through an RCIA program and this topic was inadequately or misleadingly covered? :confused: If so, you were cheated out of proper catechesis, and whether you agree with the rest of what I’m going to say below, please pray and talk to a priest as soon as you can. And don’t despair. I’ll be praying for you and I’m sure so will others.

I understand it’s a difficult issue to deal with - you start with your own situation and go from specific to general. The first thing to do is to consider those separately. Break it down into two questions:
  1. Can I live in chastity accord with Catholic teaching, even if it is a difficult sacrifice at times - can I trust God to give me the understanding and grace to carry through with it if I pray and have recourse to the Sacraments of His Church? And if I fail, can I go to Confession and make a fresh start and, having been forgiven by God, forgive myself and not get all twisted up inside?
  2. Looking at the general question in society, can you see that perhaps there is good compassion and misguided compassion and that sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between the two? And that in many ways, the pro-gay groups are widening the gap and making it more difficult for Christians to minister to those who carry the cross of same-sex attraction, because they are insisting we should change Church teaching to conform to their wishes, rather than helping each other follow it?
If we could only be able to say to anyone, gay or straight, “You can do chastity, and I’ve got your back in prayer and so does God.” :hug3: Then maybe people would not feel the need to despair. Families should be able to set boundaries with their children in a compassionate way, not just disowning the children. However, if the parent tries to do this in the right way, and the children are not willing to respect but keep pushing the parent to change their belief or else accusing them of not loving their offspring, see what a Catch-22 the parent is put in who is trying to obey God’s law and how their heart breaks because they do love their child?

There are many ways people in the Church have not been able to find this balance, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth striving for. The LGBT ministries that encourage same-sex attracted Catholics to go ahead and defy the Church’s teachings will feel like a soft place to land, but in the long run they are not doing anyone a favor by not looking out for the person’s eternal salvation.
 
Thinking10 said:
What law forbids them to live however they want together? There is a difference between forbidding something and simply not recognizing it. It is a myth that they are “barred” from anything.
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By not recognizing their marriages, we ARE barring them from the legal protections offered to legally married people.

Here are just a few things they are barred from (depending on the state, of course):

(1) Access to employer-provided health and retirement benefits for partner and nonbiological/adoptive children.

(2) Ability to visit or make medical decisions for an ill or incapacitated partner.

(3) Right to sue for wrongful death of partner.

(4) Streamlined adoption processes.

(5) For children: Access to health benefits and inheritance from both parents.

(6) For children: Right to maintain a relationship with the non-biological/adoptive parent in the event of the death of one parent (in states without same-sex second-parent adoptions).

(7) Joint insurance policies for home, auto and health.

(8) Bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child.
 
thepocketmouse said:
. . . . And it’s not like the human race is in danger of dying out from lack of procreation like it was in the earlier parts of the OT. We have sort of the opposite problem now.
. . .
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I just wanted to address this one small part of your post.

Actually, declining fertility rates all over the world, and especially in developed nations, are an increasingly serious problem. Depopulation is going to be THE serious issue for many societies very soon.
 
I grew up in the eighties right next to one of the largest homosexual communities in the USA. In high school I forged a lasting friendship with a homosexual. After high school, I left the Church and had my own share of sexual sins. It was of course my own sins which I had the hardest time reconciling with Church teaching. Even after I had returned to the Church I struggled with my own concupiscence and even priests who told me in the confessional that I had not sinned, in contrast to the Catechism. I was accustomed to enjoying pornography and even worse, the surreptitious corruption inherent in big Hollywood productions and mainstream television.

So it was a lonely time of self-teaching when I reached out to learn what the Church teaches about sexual morality. After I learned “what” was prohibited then I learned “why” it was prohibited. And these whys began to make perfect sense to me. Catholicism is a logical faith that is built on a solid foundation of God’s law. Once we are able to form a picture of God’s plan for the world we can know why things are the way they are. Furthermore, we need to understand God’s plan for ourselves and why we seek true happiness in eternal life, rather than fleeting pleasure between the sheets.

There are extremists on both sides. There are people who hate homosexuals and say they will burn in Hell and commit crimes and persecution against them. There are people who campaign for their acceptance who rail against persecution but go further and demand to be part of the mainstream in society. The correct view is not extremism but love. True, merciful love in which we accept people based on the intrinsic human dignity of the person but stand firm against their sins.

There comes a time in everyone’s life when they must discern the difference between dreams and reality. The dreams of a life of conjugal love can sometimes not be realized. Some Catholics have been wounded by divorce and the subsequent denial of an anullment. Some are unsuitable for marriage and pass that age without success. Some are called to be priests or religious. It is a heavy burden on homosexuals to be called to perpetual chastity but it is not a death sentence. The true death sentence is to reject God’s law and live as if He did not exist.

Blessed John Paul the Great spoke of a practical atheism that occurs when people go to church but they do not live a life of faith. In some ways this is worse than real atheism because it is hypocritical. When we receive the sacraments we are always called by God to challenge ourselves with beliefs and teachings we find hard. We have received grace to understand and live these beliefs. Nobody ever said they would all be agreeable to us. Jesus lost many followers in John 6 because He proposed a belief that was repulsive to the Jews. Yet He gained an everlasting kingdom through His sacrifice on the Cross. If we remember His sorrowful Passion then we will be willing to make ourselves a living sacrifice of praise.
 
natistics said:
By not recognizing their marriages, we ARE barring them from the legal protections offered to legally married people.

Here are just a few things they are barred from (depending on the state, of course):

(5) For children: Access to health benefits and inheritance from both parents.

(6) For children: Right to maintain a relationship with the non-biological/adoptive parent in the event of the death of one parent (in states without same-sex second-parent adoptions).

(8) Bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child.
Click to expand...
You can give anyone a child and say they are a parent, but does that make them a parent? Two people of the same sex will never produce children. It is a breach of the social order to consider two people of the same sex parents.

Unless they are given children taken from a heterosexual union, it is impossible for them to have children. Children are not something they will have in ordinary circumstances, so nothing is being taken away from them.

You say children are something that are owed to homosexuals. You must prove why they are owed children.
 
Not only is there a number of verses in the OT about homosexuality, there are a few in the NT. God tells us how He wants us to live. We all have a cross to carry. It may be different for each of us. But God is clear through His word:

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over(A) to shameful lusts.(B) Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.(C) 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Romans 1:32
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,(A) they not only continue to do these very things but also approve(B) of those who practice them.

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah(A) and the surrounding towns(B) gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?(A) Do not be deceived:(B) Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers(C) nor men who have sex with men.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous(A) but for lawbreakers and rebels,(B) the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

God’s word is very clear. We have the decision to either follow it…or not. Nobody said it would be easy.

Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD(A) with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

I pray you follow God and not your own understanding. Blessings.
 
natistics said:
You are Catholic, by being baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. NO ONE can take that away from you, not even yourself!

I go to a fantastic parish that has an LGBT ministry and is welcoming to all. They have a refreshing perspective. I recommend you find a parish like this too. I feel very welcome as an ally to and advocate for my gay brothers and sisters at these parishes.
Click to expand...
New Ways Ministry has been condemned by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal James Hickey, and Cardinal Francis George. They do not represent an authentically Catholic approach to homosexualism. But thanks for the link to their website, which contanis a handy list of parishes to avoid.
 
I’m wondering if you have the same perspective on all forms of Church teaching on matters of chastity. Certainly, children who pursue a gay lifestyle is not the only thing worrying many parents.

They worry about widespread co-habitation and fornication, divorce, adultery, lack of marital commitment, divorce, pre-marital sex among teens and youth, pornography, a great many practices which violate Christian chastity and threaten the family, which is the foundation of society. They ought to also be worrying about the widespread effects of contraception, which has detached procreation from marriage and detached children from parenthood, helped to enable divorce, and turned children into a commodity.

Do you believe that Christian moral teaching got all of sexuality wrong?
 
thepocketmouse said:
One of the major moral conflict that I’m having is that a lot of my friends are gay. I, personally, can be attracted to anyone regardless of gender, but am dating a man. I’ve seen how beautiful love between two people of the same gender can be, and my heart cannot accept that this might be wrong.

I understand what the bible says, but OT uses the same terms in some places to describe things that we as Catholics have no problem with, like shellfish, and approves things we now vehemently reject, such as taking slaves from neighboring countries and killing people who commit adultery. And it’s not like the human race is in danger of dying out from lack of procreation like it was in the earlier parts of the OT. We have sort of the opposite problem now.

Can I be Catholic and be accepting of homosexuality, just seeing it as another way to love? Or does this ultimately mean that I cannot be part of the Church?

It bothers me because I can’t do it. I can’t take that stance that what homosexual people do is wrong. I can’t take the side against gay marriage. That mindset hurts people. It kills people. Despair over not being able to marry the person they love has caused so many suicides. I can’t be part of that. Not won’t. Can’t. I can’t follow a God of love and be part of the source of so much pain - and I can’t believe that the Church, in spirit, was meant to do this.

I can’t look at the anti-homosexuality crowd and see a group of people protecting the sanctity of marriage. I’ve seen things from the other side. All I can see is the children whose parents reject them and make them homeless (do you know just how common that is?), the teenagers bullied until they eventually give up and kill themselves, the people who live in shame because if they’re barred from loving another, they’re losing a huge part of their lives, all because they can’t love someone of the opposite sex. It’s cruel, and I can’t do it.

Does that mean I can’t be Catholic? I hate that thought, because even though I’m a fairly recent convert, I’ve come to love the Church and Jesus. Has anyone else been through this? How did you come to terms with it? How did you find peace?
Click to expand...
Hi thepocketmouse,

I actually am lesbian (or at the very least, attracted to girls significantly more than guys), so when I first started going to Mass, I was reticent about its position on homosexuality, etc. For the first few weeks, I was trying to reconcile the idea that I could be both actively gay and Catholic, but over time, God worked within me. It was just this knowledge I gained in myself that the prohibition on homosexuality wasn’t about denying us happiness but rather redirecting our happiness in a manner that wouldn’t endanger our souls.

Does it affect me emotionally at times? Sure. Do I have a somewhat easier time than other gay people because I can enjoy dating guys even though I’m usually not physically attracted or even though I may be physically attracted to them significantly less than my ex-girlfriends? Sure. But part of Catholicism is an ultimate trust in God that there is a rhyme and reason behind His moral order, and that it isn’t just placed there to force suffering on those who have biological inclinations against it, immutable as they may be.

One of my friends on CAF (who I will keep nameless unless he wishes to post) told me once that the trick isn’t denying yourself the extremely close bonds you can have to members of the same sex but rather turning them into something decidedly non-sexual. In a way, same-sex-attracted (SSA) individuals have a huge blessing (!) in that we can have friendship bonds with members of the same sex intensely stronger than those with only OSA can.

Please don’t fret over the Church’s policy, and I would ask other posters (only some, not all) to refrain from being so hostile towards this woman who is seeking honest answers to a very pressing and emotional issue for many people.

If you would like to PM me, I am more than willing to discuss this further in depth if you would like. I have discussed this issue at great length with many, many SSA friends who I used to know from being in the LGBT community, and I never mind discussing it.

Either way, peace be with you and God bless 🙂
 
Thinking10 said:
You can give anyone a child and say they are a parent, but does that make them a parent? Two people of the same sex will never produce children. It is a breach of the social order to consider two people of the same sex parents.

Unless they are given children taken from a heterosexual union, it is impossible for them to have children. Children are not something they will have in ordinary circumstances, so nothing is being taken away from them.

You say children are something that are owed to homosexuals. You must prove why they are owed children.
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I do not say that children are “owed” to anyone. I am saying that gay couples are not treated the same as straight couples when it comes to adoption.

For example, let’s say a couple has a child. One parent dies. The surviving parent remarries. The new partner would be able to adopt the surviving parents’ children.

In some states, this is impossible for some couples.
 
Elizium23 said:
New Ways Ministry has been condemned by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal James Hickey, and Cardinal Francis George. They do not represent an authentically Catholic approach to homosexualism. But thanks for the link to their website, which contanis a handy list of parishes to avoid.
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I am unfamiliar with New Ways Ministry. I am very sorry that you have decided to avoid some parishes that strive to provide a welcoming home to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

These parishes are just as authentically Roman Catholic as any other Roman Catholic parish.
 
Thinking10 said:
Why should they be treated equally?
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This is besides the point.

You said above, “It is a myth that they are “barred” from anything.” I was only providing evidence that they are indeed barred from many legal protections.
 
Thinking10 said:
By whose determination are they authentic?
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The Roman Catholic dioceses in which they reside, the Roman Catholic priests who administer the sacraments for these parishes, the Roman Catholics that attend Mass in these parishes.
 
RedCaves said:
I hope that for your sake, you become Catholic for the right reasons. If you still cannot accept the Church’s teaching on Homosexuality and Homosexual activity, then you are not being honest with yourself or with others. There will be a point in your life where you’ll have a “Take it or Leave it” situation. Choose well.
Click to expand...
Wise words. The Church is extremely clear on these matters and it would be good for people not to hunt for ways around these truths for the sake of comfort. It really does boil down to either accepting Christian teaching or rejecting God, Obedience to God or placing ourselves ahead of God. To knowingly refuse an obvious teaching is to turn against the entire Church and live a lie, but it is a choice which must and will be made. So yes, choose well.
 
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