Reconciling PFLAG mentality with the catholic church

[thewanderer]

Hi thepocketmouse,

I actually am lesbian (or at the very least, attracted to girls significantly more than guys), so when I first started going to Mass, I was reticent about its position on homosexuality, etc. For the first few weeks, I was trying to reconcile the idea that I could be both actively gay and Catholic, but over time, God worked within me. It was just this knowledge I gained in myself that the prohibition on homosexuality wasn’t about denying us happiness but rather redirecting our happiness in a manner that wouldn’t endanger our souls.

Does it affect me emotionally at times? Sure. Do I have a somewhat easier time than other gay people because I can enjoy dating guys even though I’m usually not physically attracted or even though I may be physically attracted to them significantly less than my ex-girlfriends? Sure. But part of Catholicism is an ultimate trust in God that there is a rhyme and reason behind His moral order, and that it isn’t just placed there to force suffering on those who have biological inclinations against it, immutable as they may be.

One of my friends on CAF (who I will keep nameless unless he wishes to post) told me once that the trick isn’t denying yourself the extremely close bonds you can have to members of the same sex but rather turning them into something decidedly non-sexual. In a way, same-sex-attracted (SSA) individuals have a huge blessing (!) in that we can have friendship bonds with members of the same sex intensely stronger than those with only OSA can.

Please don’t fret over the Church’s policy, and I would ask other posters (only some, not all) to refrain from being so hostile towards this woman who is seeking honest answers to a very pressing and emotional issue for many people.

If you would like to PM me, I am more than willing to discuss this further in depth if you would like. I have discussed this issue at great length with many, many SSA friends who I used to know from being in the LGBT community, and I never mind discussing it.

Either way, peace be with you and God bless

Excellent post. I was going to bring up the fact that deep, intimate, loving relationships between members of the same sex really are not forbidden, or even looked upon as sinful, so long as any sexual element is removed from them. Also, that Catholicism does not teach what it does to try and force others to be unhappy, but because it has a certain view of what sexuality itself is. And it is a beautiful understanding of sexuality. It may take some time, and study while being open to the idea of Catholicism’s understanding of the meaning of sexuality itself, but it is a beautiful view. And because of this understanding, the Churchsees that a sexual relationship between two members of the same sex is incompatible with its understanding of sexuality. That in no way negates the possibility of a deep, meaningful, intimate, and loving relationship and friendship between such people.

Now, I’m sure that still probably seems a little harsh to you, but what I suggest you do for now, is not to worry about the issue. Continue to learn about Catholicism, immerse youself in its teachings and practices, and study with an open mind the Church’s understanding of sexuality. Set aside the fact that it is incompatible with sexual same-sex relationships, and instead try to honestly understand what exactly the Catholic Church’s position is, try to understand why the Church sees sexuality as it does, and to see the beauty in that understanding. Then, after having examined, studied, and contemplated this understanding of sexuality with an open mind, once you have come to a point where you really see the beuaty and reason behind it (the Church is really not out to ruin people’s lives), then start bringing the idea of sexual same-sex relationships into the picture. Without first understanding how the Church views and understands sexuality you will never understand her position on various different sexual acts. God Bless, and good luck on your journey, I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Nacho45]

I am unfamiliar with New Ways Ministry. I am very sorry that you have decided to avoid some parishes that strive to provide a welcoming home to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

These parishes are just as authentically Roman Catholic as any other Roman Catholic parish.

If they teach heresy, lies, doctrine contrary to the Church, they are Roman Catholic in name only and they do more harm then any good they imagine is being done.

 

[natistics]

Now, I’m sure that still probably seems a little harsh to you, but what I suggest you do for now, is not to worry about the issue. Continue to learn about Catholicism, immerse youself in its teachings and practices, and study with an open mind the Church’s understanding of sexuality. Set aside the fact that it is incompatible with sexual same-sex relationships, and instead try to honestly understand what exactly the Catholic Church’s position is, try to understand why the Church sees sexuality as it does, and to see the beauty in that understanding. Then, after having examined, studied, and contemplated this understanding of sexuality with an open mind, once you have come to a point where you really see the beuaty and reason behind it (the Church is really not out to ruin people’s lives), then start bringing the idea of sexual same-sex relationships into the picture. Without first understanding how the Church views and understands sexuality you will never understand her position on various different sexual acts. God Bless, and good luck on your journey, I will keep you in my prayers.

This is wonderful advice.

 

[Elizium23]

I am unfamiliar with New Ways Ministry. I am very sorry that you have decided to avoid some parishes that strive to provide a welcoming home to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

These parishes are just as authentically Roman Catholic as any other Roman Catholic parish.

You seem to be implying that other parishes do not welcome homosexuals. I have never in my life seen a parish that turned away sinners from their doors. The authentic Catholic teaching is love and acceptance based on human dignity. Homosexuals seeking fellowship and ministry based on Catholic teaching should seek the Courage apostolate, which is based on “chastity, piety and the promotion of compassionate and charitable works.”

Now for your claim that these parishes are authentically Roman Catholic. One name in particular caught my eye, so I looked at their website. It contains the following.

We gather to celebrate Mass twice a month. Diane Smith Whalen, an ordained Roman Catholic Woman Priest, is the presider. Gluten-free communion bread, wine, and grape juice are offered. All are invited to receive Eucharist.

Now would you like to retract your outlandish claim or would you like me to investigate more parishes on that list?

 

[SMGS127]

Now would you like to retract your outlandish claim or would you like me to investigate more parishes on that list?

Wait wait wait they call GRAPE JUICE the Eucharist??? .

 

[natistics]

You seem to be implying that other parishes do not welcome homosexuals. I have never in my life seen a parish that turned away sinners from their doors. The authentic Catholic teaching is love and acceptance based on human dignity. Homosexuals seeking fellowship and ministry based on Catholic teaching should seek the Courage apostolate, which is based on “chastity, piety and the promotion of compassionate and charitable works.”

Now for your claim that these parishes are authentically Roman Catholic. One name in particular caught my eye, so I looked at their website. It contains the following.

Now would you like to retract your outlandish claim or would you like me to investigate more parishes on that list?

I am not claiming that other parishes not on the list do not welcome gay and lesbians.

I am sorry, I have not investigated every church on the list. I was just trying to offer some suggestions to thepocketmouse for some parishes that might help him/her learn more about this. I was an idiot, clearly, for posting something so stupid.

Thepocketmouse, you may like to use this as a guide but look carefully, as I am sure you would, at each parish which could be a good fit.

I can only vouch for St. Francis of Assisi Parish in Sacramento and St. Julie Billiart in San Jose. I am very sorry, everyone.

 

[Elizium23]

Courage Chapter Listing

California, Sacramento
John (Moderator) (916) 838-3851
Email: sacraman@att.net
Fr. Art Wehr, S.J. (916) 482-9666 ext. 215
Email: awehr@calprov.org *For Spiritual Direction

California, San Jose
George (650) 450-2286
Email: grc1254@sbcglobal.net

If you would like to get on board with the Catholic Church then I suggest those starting points.

 

[Cojuanco]

By not recognizing their marriages, we ARE barring them from the legal protections offered to legally married people.

Here are just a few things they are barred from (depending on the state, of course):

(1) Access to employer-provided health and retirement benefits for partner and nonbiological/adoptive children.

(2) Ability to visit or make medical decisions for an ill or incapacitated partner.

(3) Right to sue for wrongful death of partner.

(4) Streamlined adoption processes.

(5) For children: Access to health benefits and inheritance from both parents.

(6) For children: Right to maintain a relationship with the non-biological/adoptive parent in the event of the death of one parent (in states without same-sex second-parent adoptions).

(7) Joint insurance policies for home, auto and health.

(8) Bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child.

Then we should reform the laws in at least some of the cases in question, through legislation. But we cannot under any circumstances support the state proclaiming as true something that is not true.

 

[Cojuanco]

I am unfamiliar with New Ways Ministry. I am very sorry that you have decided to avoid some parishes that strive to provide a welcoming home to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

These parishes are just as authentically Roman Catholic as any other Roman Catholic parish.

We do well to avoid parishes that flout the commandment to obey their lawful superiors. That is the problem, not providing welcoming homes to gays and lesbians (to aim at the contrary would be un-Catholic). There are organizations like Courage that are not condemned by the Holy Office (there is another one, but I think they only operate in Chicago - your diocese may have others)

 

[3DOCTORS]

I grew up in the eighties right next to one of the largest homosexual communities in the USA. In high school I forged a lasting friendship with a homosexual. After high school, I left the Church and had my own share of sexual sins. It was of course my own sins which I had the hardest time reconciling with Church teaching. Even after I had returned to the Church I struggled with my own concupiscence and even priests who told me in the confessional that I had not sinned, in contrast to the Catechism. I was accustomed to enjoying pornography and even worse, the surreptitious corruption inherent in big Hollywood productions and mainstream television.

So it was a lonely time of self-teaching when I reached out to learn what the Church teaches about sexual morality. After I learned “what” was prohibited then I learned “why” it was prohibited. And these whys began to make perfect sense to me. Catholicism is a logical faith that is built on a solid foundation of God’s law. Once we are able to form a picture of God’s plan for the world we can know why things are the way they are. Furthermore, we need to understand God’s plan for ourselves and why we seek true happiness in eternal life, rather than fleeting pleasure between the sheets.

There are extremists on both sides. There are people who hate homosexuals and say they will burn in Hell and commit crimes and persecution against them. There are people who campaign for their acceptance who rail against persecution but go further and demand to be part of the mainstream in society. The correct view is not extremism but love. True, merciful love in which we accept people based on the intrinsic human dignity of the person but stand firm against their sins.

There comes a time in everyone’s life when they must discern the difference between dreams and reality. The dreams of a life of conjugal love can sometimes not be realized. Some Catholics have been wounded by divorce and the subsequent denial of an anullment. Some are unsuitable for marriage and pass that age without success. Some are called to be priests or religious. It is a heavy burden on homosexuals to be called to perpetual chastity but it is not a death sentence. The true death sentence is to reject God’s law and live as if He did not exist.

Blessed John Paul the Great spoke of a practical atheism that occurs when people go to church but they do not live a life of faith. In some ways this is worse than real atheism because it is hypocritical. When we receive the sacraments we are always called by God to challenge ourselves with beliefs and teachings we find hard. We have received grace to understand and live these beliefs. Nobody ever said they would all be agreeable to us. Jesus lost many followers in John 6 because He proposed a belief that was repulsive to the Jews. Yet He gained an everlasting kingdom through His sacrifice on the Cross. If we remember His sorrowful Passion then we will be willing to make ourselves a living sacrifice of praise.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: Very nicely put, and obviously you have the “street cred” to know what you’re talking about.

I pray the OP will talk to a priest who’s faithful to the Magisterium of the Church instead of seeking out someone who will tell him what he wants to hear. And take a look at the Courage website and see that there are many who share your dilemma and are living out faithful Catholic lives - and would be happy to help you do the same.

Unfortunately, and the OP may not be aware of this - there are faithful priests and bishops, and there are dissenting priests and bishops (and nuns and other prominent Catholics, for example politicians who attend Mass and receive Holy Communion then go back to their respective legislatures and vote for laws that contradict Catholic teaching).

OP, I say this knowing it’s scary and not easy - but please, please consider it. God bless.

 

[Corki]

I am unfamiliar with New Ways Ministry. I am very sorry that you have decided to avoid some parishes that strive to provide a welcoming home to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

These parishes are just as authentically Roman Catholic as any other Roman Catholic parish.

If you aren’t familiar with NWM, why did you link to their site in your earlier post?

NWM and PFLAG are not compatible with authentic Catholic teaching.

Courage and EnCourage are the organizations that can help a person who is struggling to reconcile issues regarding homosexuality and Catholic Church teaching.

 

[edwest2]

By not recognizing their marriages, we ARE barring them from the legal protections offered to legally married people.

Here are just a few things they are barred from (depending on the state, of course):

(1) Access to employer-provided health and retirement benefits for partner and nonbiological/adoptive children.

(2) Ability to visit or make medical decisions for an ill or incapacitated partner.

(3) Right to sue for wrongful death of partner.

(4) Streamlined adoption processes.

(5) For children: Access to health benefits and inheritance from both parents.

(6) For children: Right to maintain a relationship with the non-biological/adoptive parent in the event of the death of one parent (in states without same-sex second-parent adoptions).

(7) Joint insurance policies for home, auto and health.

(8) Bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child.

Durable power of attorney can solve most of these problems, as can becoming a legal guardian. Why change marriage when you can go after the insurance companies?

Name one hospital in any state which denies visitation to anyone. I worked in a hospital for nearly ten years, and there was no rule that stopped anyone. None. The same in the Emergency Room. A few years ago, as I lay on a stretcher in a hospital emergency room and a man sat next to me, no one asked what our relationship was. Friend? Brother? Cousin?

Peace,
Ed

 

[thepocketmouse]

I’m sorry for not responding earlier. I don’t handle confrontation well and so I wasn’t sure what to say, since so many of the replies are somewhat hostile. At least, they seem to be to me. Maybe they weren’t meant that way.

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I’m wondering if you all thought that maybe it would be okay if I just didn’t act on my feelings until I resolved them. Would that still be disobedient to the church? If I didn’t speak about homosexuality, until I figured out how this works in my head? Or do I have to actually feel the way the church does?

To clarify, I’m a woman. I am not living in a homosexual relationship, though I have in the past, before I came back to the church. For my own sake, I would now rather vow a life of chastity if I wasn’t able to have a relationship with a man. The part I’m having trouble with is believing other people are committing evil. I don’t know. I guess it just seems wrong to me to force my religious beliefs on people who don’t share them. I know that’s not how I’m supposed to feel, but I can’t help that.

Either way, I’ll do some research on the church’s stance on sexuality and see if it answers any questions for me. Thank you all for weighing in.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

This is besides the point.

You said above, “It is a myth that they are “barred” from anything.” I was only providing evidence that they are indeed barred from many legal protections.

It isn’t beside the point. Being barred from something only matters when it is unjust. As a man, I am barred from carrying a child in my womb. Seeing as how I don’t have one and all. I have no right to. It isn’t unjust.

If you are going to speak of something as relevant, you have to explain why.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’m sorry for not responding earlier. I don’t handle confrontation well and so I wasn’t sure what to say, since so many of the replies are somewhat hostile. At least, they seem to be to me. Maybe they weren’t meant that way.

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I’m wondering if you all thought that maybe it would be okay if I just didn’t act on my feelings until I resolved them. Would that still be disobedient to the church? If I didn’t speak about homosexuality, until I figured out how this works in my head? Or do I have to actually feel the way the church does?

To clarify, I’m a woman. I am not living in a homosexual relationship, though I have in the past, before I came back to the church. For my own sake, I would now rather vow a life of chastity if I wasn’t able to have a relationship with a man. The part I’m having trouble with is believing other people are committing evil. I don’t know. I guess it just seems wrong to me to force my religious beliefs on people who don’t share them. I know that’s not how I’m supposed to feel, but I can’t help that.

Either way, I’ll do some research on the church’s stance on sexuality and see if it answers any questions for me. Thank you all for weighing in.

Sounds like a very sensible approach. I stand by my earlier suggestion to have a sit-down chat with a priest (one who is not dissenting but who is patient, kind, and approachable - and comfortable with explaining why the Church teaching is what it is).

It’s understandable about not wanting to feel that you’re judging others. Perhaps if you look at it as they’re not doing evil in the way that, say, Hitler was, but that there are many human weaknesses and that it’s easy to deceive ourselves. It can get confusing too when there are feelings of affection connected with the sexual behaviors that are not permitted. The affection and emotional attachment you have, or you see someone else have, seems like a good thing, then your mind may go, so what’s so bad about the rest of it?

Here is a good place to begin your research with this resource right on CAF - catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Wishing you all the best and may God guide you and may you feel His wisdom and consolation at every step. :heaven:

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The part I’m having trouble with is believing other people are committing evil. I don’t know. I guess it just seems wrong to me to force my religious beliefs on people who don’t share them. I know that’s not how I’m supposed to feel, but I can’t help that.

I’m guessing you feel the same way about non-marital sex? If so, then the real question is not, “Why is gay sex wrong?” but rather “What is the meaning of sexual activity, in the first place?” I think this is the question you ought to explore.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’m guessing you feel the same way about non-marital sex? If so, then the real question is not, “Why is gay sex wrong?” but rather “What is the meaning of sexual activity, in the first place?” I think this is the question you ought to explore.

Yes, like Theology of the Body for Beginners or something. :yup: But I’m still wondering if the OP’s RCIA class gave correct and sufficient instruction in the fundamentals of Catholic morality. If there are gaps, those should be filled in first.

 

[miguel]

Not only is there a number of verses in the OT about homosexuality, there are a few in the NT. God tells us how He wants us to live. We all have a cross to carry. It may be different for each of us. But God is clear through His word:

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over(A) to shameful lusts.(B) Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.(C) 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD(A) with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

I pray you follow God and not your own understanding. Blessings.

St Paul mentions receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. This article speaks to that and sheds some current scientific light on what St Paul may have been referring to. The human body hasn’t changed in 2000 years. But our understanding has changed. Politicians who pose as good guys when they promote and encourage deadly behavior, are wolves in sheeps’ clothing. This article explains why:
catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0122.htm

 

[thepocketmouse]

I think it is actually the church and sexuality in general that is the problem for me. Thank you for pointing that out. The problem may be that I was pagan for so long, and they are very clear that sex is just an expression of love. If you start hearing that from early teenage years, it’s very hard to stop believing it. You can reason all you want, but that doesn’t affect what you believe. There’s a difference between intellectually knowing someone should be true (such as sex being a sacred act between man and wife to create life) and internalizing it. That’s where I’m running into trouble. I can’t internalize the idea that sex is something for special circumstances, and anything outside of those is wrong - so from that perspective, it seems like what we’re saying is that some people are allowed to give all of themselves to the person they fall in love with, and some people aren’t, and that doesn’t feel fair. In fact, since children are so highly impressionable and are the ones I always see affected by this stance (I was the nurse for a high school clinic until recently, and wasn’t always sent physical problems) it feels cruel.

I know what the Church believes, but there’s a difference between knowing and believing. Knowing is good enough to make decisions for my own life, but I don’t want to affect someone else’s based off something I’m not 100% sure of. The stakes are, in practice, too high. Some of you have said that parents should love their children even if they’re gay, and pray they make the right choices, or that you’re supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner, but is that what happens in practice? The times it doesn’t happen do a horrifying amount of damage, and I’m the kind of person who would quite literally rather die than hurt someone else badly. So this is a big deal to me.

Also - I didn’t go through an RCIA program. I left the church within a year of confirmation, if my memory serves, which it might not. So I had all of my sacraments, went through CCD. I learned all of this stuff - but in ten years you lose a lot of what you’ve learned.

 

[weller2]

The problem may be that I was pagan for so long, and they are very clear that sex is just an expression of love.

You should be grateful for that, because connection between love and sex is something that the Catholic Church never really understood.

I know what the Church believes, but there’s a difference between knowing and believing.

But do you know why the Church believes what it does?

It all goes back to Augustine of Hippo, his view of original sin and how it ties with sex. Read up on that.