Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Do you want to rephrase?

No, why?

Because the question, as it is phrased, makes no sense. So, I’ll have to assume that you intended it that way. You asked:

So in the very instant that person sins after having been baptized, (s)he is no longer sinless?

Oh, sorry. I read it wrong the first time. Correct. In the instant that a person sins, after having been washed by the grace of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, (s)he is no longer sinless.

Because this brings us back to the more substantial issue: if baptism does not make us sinless, at least any further than until the first sin committed after baptism, it follows that Christians can not make a claim to be without sin.

Correct. I believe Scripture says:

1 John 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And this is another reason why Catholics do not declare themselves saved.

Yet, we believe that we are justified through faith by the blood of Christ. Hence, simul justus et peccator is an adequate and factual description of our state of being.

Most of the time. The difference is that you never, ever, consider yourself washed of all sins and actually righteous. Which is what you say next.

We are being covered by the righteousness of Christ, rather than being inherently righteous.

We consider ourselves “washed” by the grace of the Holy Spirit. There is a true transformation going on in our soul and there is a potential to achieve total sinlessness in this world.

But, you might ask, what about 1 John 1:10? The answer is that we won’t declare ourselves sinless. We leave that judgment to God.

Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Eccl. 7:20)

Scripture does not contradict itself:

Luke 1:6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Do you believe one and not the other? Or, how do you reconcile one to the other?

 

[lanman87]

Was Ananias an Apostle?

He was not one of the 12 but he was an apostle as the Lord spoke directly to him and gave him a job to do.

And, does the Scripture say that God no longer inspires people? Any people? To write or to speak?

God gives the gift of evangelism and teaching and administration. But the people he gives those gifts to are fallible men/women and their writings/teachings must be compared with the teaching of the Gospel as delivered by Christ to the Apostles. If anyone says “God told me such and such” then we must compare what that person is saying with the scripture to see if there is any basis of truth else we can be listening to “another gospel”.

Also, let me clarify that I don’t believe the charisma gifts have completely ceased. But they are not the norm. People don’t start speaking in tongues when they are baptized or have hands laid on them (unless maybe if you are Pentecostal but that is another subject).

If the Charisma gifts are present today the are for a specific purpose. We once had a missionary to a foreign country (India if I recall correctly) comes speak at our church. He told us that his interpreter was late to a meeting he was holding and he started speaking to the crowd in English, hoping to just get them to stay until the interpreter arrived. The crowd started listening to him so he kept talking and since they kept listening he shared the Gospel. Before he finished the interpreter arrived and didn’t interrupt him and afterward ask why he called for an interpreter as he spoke the language fluently. The missionary was shocked because he had been speaking English and yet the crowd heard him in their native language. He didn’t even know he was speaking “in tongues” . The other missionaries heard him in English but the those who spoke the native language heard him in their native tongue.

So I’m not completely dismissing the Charisma gifts but I do think they are not part of the everyday activity of the church and not something we can plan for and assume will happen.

That is why I said above

I don’t believe the gifts have ceased. I believe the office of apostle has ceased and the special gifts given to the apostles only, have cease.

I should have phrased that better to say that the gifts no longer identify someone as an apostle and are which is what I meant when I said

all the gifts of the Spirit come from a direct relationship with God and are not transferred by men.

God gives all members of the Body spiritual gifts directly, not with the laying on of hands from an apostle.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[De_Maria]

Sorry for the confusion.

No problem. I want to also point out that you seem to be answering yourself. Some of those quotes that seem to be attributed to me, don’t sound like me. And I searched and could find them. So, I think a summary to sort of, reboot, would be better than a reply, because it is confusing.

The difference between you and Catholic Teaching, is that you believe that certain gifts which were given to the Apostles are no longer passed on through the Church.

Whereas, we believe what the Church Teaches, that all the gifts and authority which Jesus Christ gave the Apostles, are being passed on through the Church.

We also believe that God gave the Church more authority than the Apostles. Notice, that in St. John’s lifetime, when the other Apostles died, he did not take over the reigns of the Church. But the reigns were passed down through St. Peter’s line.

Is that a fair summary?

 

[lanman87]

The difference between you and Catholic Teaching, is that you believe that certain gifts which were given to the Apostles are no longer passed on through the Church.

Whereas, we believe what the Church Teaches, that all the gifts and authority which Jesus Christ gave the Apostles, are being passed on through the Church.

We also believe that God gave the Church more authority than the Apostles. Notice, that in St. John’s lifetime, when the other Apostles died, he did not take over the reigns of the Church. But the reigns were passed down through St. Peter’s line.

Is that a fair summary?

Yes, I don’t believe the gifts are being handed down by the laying on of hands from one person to another. I believe God gives gifts to His children as He see fit, in order that His kingdom may expand.

I think I used the quote function of you quoting me, that is why it gave you credit for the quote instead of me. I’ll have to remember it does that.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, thanks for the discussion. Unless you have anything else on your mind, I think we’ve both stated what we believe and the readers can compare to Scripture.

 

[lanman87]

Thank, have a great night.

 

[C.Longinus]

Ananias was a disciple who the Lord had a direct conversation with concerning Saul/Paul.

Ananias was no ordinary disciple, however. Tradition holds him as one of the 72 and the first bishop of Damascus.

 

[fhansen]

No, why? Because this brings us back to the more substantial issue: if baptism does not make us sinless, at least any further than until the first sin committed after baptism, it follows that Christians can not make a claim to be without sin. Yet, we believe that we are justified through faith by the blood of Christ. Hence, simul justus et peccator is an adequate and factual description of our state of being. We are being covered by the righteousness of Christ, rather than being inherently righteous.

And yet this doesn’t mean that we cannot and are not expected to grow from there in righteousness or holiness, and that our state of righteousness has no bearing on our salvation. As if we’re just to throw in the towel and give up on ever realizing righteousness, even with the Spirit’s help, the kind of righteousness that might do “for the least of these” as in Matt 25, the kind of righteousness that causes no harm to neighbor because its based on a love that we perhaps previously had no recourse to. This is the kind of righteousness or justice that we generally act on unconsciously, without thinking of reward.

Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Eccl. 7:20)

Fortunately God’s purpose isn’t to leave us there, as if that’s the best He could do, create a bunch of sinners.