Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

That is not my decision to make. My assumption is that God would look at his heart and take into account things we cannot know and see.

Fair enough.

But we CAN KNOW the objective theological TEACHINGS because they are revealed to us.

To DENY this would be to follow after bad philosophy (you would be a follower of the ancient
Greek philosopher Gorgias the Sophist, instead of a follower of Jesus Christ.
At least on this point).

And although not infallible, we can know ourselves too. St. Paul talks about this with himself.

St. Paul tells us to examine our consciences BEFORE approaching the Eucharist (“THE body and blood of the Lord”).

So this has practical relevance too.

So my question remains. Does this guy get to go to Heaven anyway?

 

[lanman87]

So my question remains. Does this guy get to go to Heaven anyway?

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

If you do believe in Jesus and trust in Him to the point that you live for Him then you can know you have eternal life.

Is God merciful on someone who shipwrecks their faith as a father is merciful to a wayward child or does losing faith break the bonds of son ship with God and the person is completely cast out? I can’t answer that question and people have argued over it for centuries.

However, I can confidently say that if you don’t trust in Christ to the point that you live for Him then you have no assurance of salvation.

 

[TULIPed]

I see where you’re coming from. Thankfully, neither you or I were on the cross with our King - even though we deserved to be in spades. We both agree on this, no?

I’m not saying that we don’t do good works. Reformed theology is focused on who gets credit for them. We would say that Christ gets all the credit.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

We don’t believe that a faith, which has not transformed a life, can save.

Curious this. Does this mean somebody can’t be become Catholic on their deathbed, or as their last act on a battlefield?

They can. But it’s the exception, not the rule.

And becoming a Catholic, no matter at what point in their life, does not guarantee their salvation.

837 … Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"

Ultimately, salvation is between God and the individual. Only God reads the heart.

 

[De_Maria]

Cathoholic:

What if later a guy who has true faith and it changed him, later decides to make “shipwreck of his faith” and refuses to bear fruit and persists in this?

Then what?

Is he going to Heaven anyway?

That is not my decision to make. My assumption is that God would look at his heart and take into account things we cannot know and see.

That’s the Catholic answer. And thereby explains why we don’t claim to be saved nor that anyone else is saved. It is not our decision to make.

Is God merciful on someone who shipwrecks their faith as a father is merciful to a wayward child

Does the child repent? There are human relationships which are never repaired because one of them does not repent.

or does losing faith break the bonds of son ship with God and the person is completely cast out? I can’t answer that question and people have argued over it for centuries.

Well, what does this say to you?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

However, I can confidently say that if you don’t trust in Christ to the point that you live for Him then you have no assurance of salvation.

So, again, the futility of claiming to be once saved always saved is revealed.

 

[De_Maria]

I see where you’re coming from. Thankfully, neither you or I were on the cross with our King - even though we deserved to be in spades. We both agree on this, no?

What does this mean?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I’m not saying that we don’t do good works. Reformed theology is focused on who gets credit for them. We would say that Christ gets all the credit.

Again, what does this mean?

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

It seems to me that Protestants always hang on to a verse in the OT which says, “our works are as dirty rags”. But they seem to turn a blind eye to the verses which say that we must be found “worthy”:

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Or as above, where God will no forget our labour of love. Or where God will judge our works whether good or bad. Etc.

Why is that?

 

[TULIPed]

How much credit do you give yourself for your salvation?

Here’s what the RCC says:

“With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.”

Now that’s something I as a Reformed Protestant can agree with.

Might I challenge you to have a look at the Westminster or 2nd Helvetic Confession, and find something you agree with?

 

[lanman87]

Does the child repent? There are human relationships which are never repaired because one of them does not repent.

I don’t know. But I can tell you as a father who loves my children and would do anything in the world I could for them, that I would never send them to Hell or even purgatory. I might be very disappointed with them and grieve for them and the decisions they make. But if I had the choice I would rescue them instead of punish them. Well, God has that choice.

 

[fhansen]

It’s not so much specific merit points as merit in general. IOW, as per the Parable of the Talents, for example, we can decide to “invest” the gifts we’ve been given, including such things as performing the works prepared for us in advance (Eph 2:10). This gives us an idea of the dynamics but the actual life in the Spirit is not some mechanical thing-and we know that God judges by the heart, on our love as the Church teaches, and love, by its nature, acts, for the good of others.

So is this really any different from the view of most Protestant theology? Do you believe that we can enter heaven with a life lived in the flesh, in wanton sin? Or with a life that bears no fruit-a life that hasn’t moved from unrighteousness to righteousness in some manner, no matter how the accounting is done-or how much overcoming of sin or how many righteous acts are enough, which is something that only God knows with certainty anyway?

In the Parable of the Talents, at least some progress needed to be made, with more expected from the servant who was given more but loss of the kingdom for he who did nothing. We’re simply to do the best with whatever we’re given-and God does the judging from there, with mercy and kindness and love but not without justice if we were to bury our talents.

 

[fhansen]

“With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.”

Yes, and it continues:
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace . The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

As the Council of Trent teaches we don’t deserve any of it; it’s all grace, whether faith or works or anything else, but we can still refuse any of it; we can resist grace.

 

[TULIPed]

I know, I know. Baby steps.

 

[fhansen]

I know, I know.

Good . Then you know why it’s so important that the will of man is preserved to one degree or another in all this.

 

[TULIPed]

I know what you believe about our will. I believe that His will is the only one that really matters. I also know you believe that I’m wrong about that. Finally I know - or at least I’m fairly certain based on what I’ve seen you write - that we both love Him. And right now - that’s good enough for me.

 

[fhansen]

Oh…can’t disagree there…darn it. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:. And I know we agree that correct theology is a good thing too.

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed (regarding Catholic teaching) . . . .

“With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man.

That is Catholic/Biblical teaching. There is only STRICT merit for Jesus Christ.

But taken by itself you are ignoring other Catholic teaching.

We cannot have STRICT merit, but we can merit in a grace-associated secondary sense (congruous and condign merit).

You likewise cannot stictly merit even with faith.

If you want, I would be happy to go to my computer and find the CCC teachings about the sense we CAN merit.

There is a sense we cannot merit (strict merit). And
there is a sense we can and for most of us, MUST merit in UNION with Jesus Christ.

 

[lanman87]

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This guy does a good job of showing the “Security of the believer” take on these versus.

One thing that has always puzzled me from the “this is people losing their salvation” view on these versus is they never address the “impossible… to renew them again to repentance” and what that means. Who are these people who “lose their salvation” to the point it is impossible for them to ever repent again?

 

[fhansen]

I don’t know. But I can tell you as a father who loves my children and would do anything in the world I could for them, that I would never send them to Hell or even purgatory. I might be very disappointed with them and grieve for them and the decisions they make. But if I had the choice I would rescue them instead of punish them. Well, God has that choice.

So, to understand, do you believe in universal salvation?

And purgatory could be a place or state of sheer mercy if the idea is to prepare us to be capable of seeing God, of purifying our hearts, detaching us from our attachment to those lesser, created things above Him first before all else. I’d submit that if sinners don’t enter heaven as Scripture maintains, it’s because we don’t even fully want it yet at that point, that we aren’t capable yet of beholding God because He’s not yet the center of our focus. And yet He doesn’t abandon us; everyone in Purgatory gains eternal life.

 

[De_Maria]

How much credit do you give yourself for your salvation?

I don’t. I hope God gives me credit.

Romans 4:22 That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Here’s what the RCC says:

"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. …

You do realize that it doesn’t say that God doesn’t give us merit, right? What it’s saying is that we have no bragging rights over the merit which God gives us. We can’t walk up to God and say, “I have faith, therefore, I am saved.”

Council of Trent VI
Chapter VIII
…because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.

Now that’s something I as a Reformed Protestant can agree with.

Can you agree with it as I’ve explained it to you?

Might I challenge you to have a look at the Westminster or 2nd Helvetic Confession, and find something you agree with?

There’s many things within the Protestant confessions with which I agree.

We believe in the same God, the same Trinity, the same Scriptures (basically), etc.

We tend to focus on the things wherein we differ because:

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

I know what you believe about our will. I believe that His will is the only one that really matters. I also know you believe that I’m wrong about that.

Not exactly. We also believe that His is the only one that really matters. That’s why we don’t claim to be saved and await His Judgment.

1 Corinthians 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.

We differ on what His will is for us. In other words, I assume you believe in double predestination, where He wills certain people to be saved and certain people to be condemned. Individuals have no free will to follow the path they see as best. Am I correct?

But we see it as it is His will that we struggle and strive to follow the right path which leads to Him and to salvation.

In either case, it is His will that we believe is the only one that matters.

Finally I know - or at least I’m fairly certain based on what I’ve seen you write - that we both love Him. And right now - that’s good enough for me.

Amen!

Question, does one come to love God before or after one is saved?

The Catholic answer is that love of God is the perfect way. But one can be justified without it. Fear of God is acceptable. Either can lead one to do God’s will.

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity)…

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation…

 

[De_Maria]

I don’t know. But I can tell you as a father who loves my children and would do anything in the world I could for them, that I would never send them to Hell or even purgatory. I might be very disappointed with them and grieve for them and the decisions they make. But if I had the choice I would rescue them instead of punish them. Well, God has that choice.

No, He doesn’t. God has given men the choice to love Him or reject Him. If we reject Him, He won’t force us to love Him.

Now, if we put it in human terms, as you’ve done above. A father loves his children, but one of his children is prodigal. And leaves. In the Proverb, did the father go and retrieve the child? No. He waited for the child to return to him. I’m sure he could have sent soldiers out to find the child. But then they would have had to drag him back against his will. That’s not what our Father wants. He’ll forgive anything, if we repent and ask for forgiveness.

But, let’s say the prodigal had never returned? The prodigal would have condemned himself to hell. For eternity. God didn’t send him there. He went there voluntarily.

 

[De_Maria]

This guy does a good job of showing the “Security of the believer” take on these versus.

I gave it a quick review, he basically denies what the verse says. Now, he might have a point if that were the only verse which says it, but there are others.

2 Pet 2:14 Their eyes are full of adultery and insatiable for sin. They seduce unstable people, and their hearts are trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray, following the road of Balaam, the son of Bosor, who loved payment for wrongdoing, 16 but he received a rebuke for his own crime: a mute beast spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Note the bold letters. They abandoned the right road. Therefore, they were on the right road for a time. They went astray.

One thing that has always puzzled me from the “this is people losing their salvation” view on these versus is they never address the “impossible… to renew them again to repentance” and what that means. Who are these people who “lose their salvation” to the point it is impossible for them to ever repent again?

I suppose only God knows. Let us hope it is neither you nor I. Or are you suggesting that these don’t exist? Yet the Scripture is clear that they do.

2 Pet 2:20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down[k] to them.

Do you disagree?