Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[C.Longinus]

So, there is a condition. It is not, as you say, a gift without any conditions.
And in so saying, you disprove the idea that a gift can’t have any conditions.

So, the difference between you and I is that salvation is a gift with one condition, faith.

And let me outline how I differ between both of you.

Grace is offered free to everyone. Faith is how one accepts that grace, and upon receiving that grace one is to continue in a state of grace.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, for starters you didn’t finish the quote

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God,[d] and God[e] in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. 1 John 3:23-24

What is the will of the Father? It is that we know the Son.

Yes, and thank you for posting the requirements to love one another and keep the Commandments, above.

Those might works done in His name didn’t mean and thing. Because they did not know the son. There didn’t have a saving faith.

Nor did they have the humility to wait for God’s Judgement.

I believe Paul said that Justification is a gift “received by faith” is because Paul understands that faith produces obedience. Because faith in a change of heart and affections and we all naturally follow our affections. We spend our time and effort on things that are most important to us. When we truly trust in Christ then He is the “Treasure in a field”.

All this is good and we agree. But, that still leaves the fact that faith is required and obedience is required. As well as keeping the Commandments and loving one another. All these are conditions for salvation. All these make faith perfect, as St. James said.

Spurgeon put it this way:

Oh, for obedience! It has been supposed by many ill-instructed people that the doctrine of justification by faith is opposed to the teaching of good works, or obedience. There is no truth in the supposition. We preach the obedience of faith. Faith is the fountain, the foundation, and the fosterer of obedience. Men obey not God till they believe him. We preach faith in order that men may be brought to obedience. To disbelieve is to disobey.

THAT is Catholic Teaching. What we reject is the idea that one can come to God with empty hands and just say, “I’m saved because I believe”. And yet never have done anything to show that they have actually turned to God.

It’s like this, let’s say a drunken sailor, in the company of two barely clad ladies of the night,comes to a Catholic Church and asks to be baptized. The Pastor is going to say, “Son, if you’re serious, you’ll have to change your ways. Here’s when we start RCIA, hope to see you there.”

What would the Pastor of your church do?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I’m afraid you’ll have to show more than a “say so” statement to make that point. The text is perfectly clear.

Okay.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The reason for its composition

I assume you’re talking about the book of Hebrews?

is probably to be found in the conditions existing in the Jewish Christian Church at Jerusalem. The faith of the Church might fall into great danger through continued persecution by the Jews, who had put James, the head of the community to a violent death. Precisely at this period the services in the temple were celebrated with great pomp, as under Albinus (62-64) the magnificent building was completed, while the Christian community had to struggle with extreme poverty. The national movement which began shortly before the outbreak of the last Jewish war would increase the danger. These circumstances might lead the Apostle to write the letter.

So it’s not a kergymatic document

Lol! Every book of the New Testament is kerygmatic. Kerygmatic means preaching Christ.

as it is a document encouraging the Christians to persevere in their faith.

Yeah. That’s kerygmatic. Preaching that Christians should persevere in the faith is the epitome of kerygmatic.

kerygma​

• n.

The proclamation of religious truths, especially as taught in the Gospels.

• n.

A proclamation; preaching; specifically, Christian preaching.

If you hold a different explanation of kerygma, please post it.

 

[De_Maria]

And let me outline how I differ between both of you.

Grace is offered free to everyone.

Not all grace. Back to Trent:
COUNCIL OF TRENT
CHAPTER V.

On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called;

Basically, the first grace we receive, is the calling to come to Christ. It is completely free of any conditions.

Faith is how one accepts that grace,

In my opinion, faith is the prevenient grace which is called the “vocation” or “calling”. Faith is how we realize this. But, that is only my opinion. I can’t trace it to Catholic Teaching.

However, I do know that faith is a grace. That I can trace to Scripture.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith , that it might be by grace ;

and upon receiving that grace one is to continue in a state of grace.

Actually, you’re right. Because upon entering this imperfect state of grace, when we first convert, one must continue and strive to achieve a perfect state of grace, by receiving the washing of our sins, in Baptism.

CHAPTER VI, TRENT

…*understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: *

Notice how the convert realizes that his soul is in need of cleansing and therefore that, he is in an imperfect state of grace.

…lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek Him.

 

[C.Longinus]

Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called

Apparently you and I have a different definition of “without any merits.”

 

[C.Longinus]

Yeah. That’s kerygmatic. Preaching that Christians should persevere in the faith is the epitome of kerygmatic.

When I say Hebrews isn’t kergymatic, I say that it isn’t a book written to convert people. I mean that it’s written for people who are already saved. The content of the book itself is to exhort the people to maintain their salvation, not that they don’t already have it.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called

Apparently you and I have a different definition of “without any merits.”

Why? As I said in the message where I included that quote:

Basically, the first grace we receive, is the calling to come to Christ. It is completely free of any conditions.

What is it about that with which you disagree?

 

[De_Maria]

When I say Hebrews isn’t kergymatic, I say that it isn’t a book written to convert people. I mean that it’s written for people who are already saved. The content of the book itself is to exhort the people to maintain their salvation, not that they don’t already have it.

It sounds as though you just want to argue about your personal preferences.

1. If we look at St. Paul, who wrote the book of Hebrews, we see that he didn’t consider himself absolutely saved.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Thus, for him, it is natural to say that we obey, do the will of God and wait to receive the promise.

1. It’s the Catholic point of view. We don’t consider ourselves once saved always saved.
2. Kerygma is most often preached to the Church. To people who are already baptized and “saved” in the Catholic sense.
3. Every book in the New Testament is written mainly to Christians but also for non-Christians for the purpose of converting them.

So, basically, you’re arguing your personal brand of salvation. Not Catholicism.

 

[C.Longinus]

1. Kerygma is most often preached to the Church. To people who are already baptized and “saved” in the Catholic sense.
2. Every book in the New Testament is written mainly to Christians but also for non-Christians for the purpose of converting them.

So, basically, you’re arguing your personal brand of salvation. Not Catholicism.

I literally said maintain salvation. You can’t get more Catholic than that. And by the way, who appointed you as the determiner of which view of salvation is Catholic or not?

 

[C.Longinus]

Why? As I said in the message where I included that quote:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) De_Maria:

What about the part where you said there’s strings attached?

 

[Cathoholic]

SyCarl (here) . . . .

We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

Notice SyCarl, they have a DUTY.

Not an “option”.

when you have DONE all that you were COMMANDED . . . (you have) only DONE what was our DUTY.’”

Sy Carl . . . .

Paul also tells us that works are not part of justification.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Rom 3:28)

“Paul” or St. Paul tells us no such thing.

St. Paul uses “law” in differing senses. This has already been unpacked in this thread.

But even if it wasn’t, HOW in the world does Romans 3:28 equal justification by faith ALONE?

What about “hope”?

What about “repentance”?

What about “he who humbles himself” or “humility”?

Sy Carl . . . .

. . . .“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. . . .

Sy. This is talking about the Mosaic Law. Specifically “circumcision”.
This is NOT teaching justification by faith ALONE.

St. Paul asserts a saving faith NECESSARILY OBEYS! Yet you attempt to divorce obedience from justification. That is the whole purpose of receiving faith.

ROMANS 1:5b-6 we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ

ROMANS 16:26 26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH

As a matter of fact you are selectively reading about Abraham.

You seemed to neglect that he too had a faith that is tied to his OBEDIENCE.

HEBREWS 11:8-9 8 By FAITH Abraham OBEYED when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.

You are going to say these were separate events. You are going to HAVE TO now that you painted yourself into a corner.

But it doesn’t say that.

You are going to insist it implies it and I am going to ask if Abraham HAD TO obey?

He COULD have NOT obeyed.

Was obedience an optional item?

How about the rich man who had an invitation to follow Christ but refused?
How about Jerusalem Jerusalem. (They would not allow Christ to gather them in at that time). Do you think that grace was “irresistible”?

This justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men. The only way it will be licit is if you affirm that NECESSITY of WORKS according to your state in life as your definition of faith. Just like St. Paul does when he talks of the OBEDIENCE of faith.

Even the Good Thief “worked” (admonishing his fellow sinner) on the cross (i.e. according to his state in life).

To whom much is given much is REQUIRED!

NOT . . . . “To who much is given, much is only DESIRED.”

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 (here) . . . .

But once we accept these gifts they become so precious to us that we do everything we can to take care of the gifts and keep them safe.

What if a Christian doesn’t?

Then what?

What if he decided to NOT REMAIN in the Vine as Jesus warns us? Then what?

JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch IN ME (notice Jesus is talking about people who are IN CHRIST. Who are justified.) that bears no fruit (PEOPLE who are IN JESUS but bear NOT Fruit, get REMOVED from the life of Jesus), while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain (Notice you are IN Jesus, but Jesus warns you, you must REMAIN in Him) in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself (Catholic theology. We do not WORK on our OWN in this sense); it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless (notice IN JESUS, you CAN bear fruit) you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. IF you remain in me (notice the provisional nature of Jesus’ admonition) and I in you, you will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing. (more Catholic theology)
6 If you do not remain in me (notice you may choose to “NOT REMAIN IN ME”), you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (Being tossed into the “Fire” does not sound like “justification” to me for these guys who WERE IN CHRIST.)

Parenthetical addition mine above.

Ianman87. . . .

I liken it to this. . . . . it is 100% free all you’ve got to do is accept it”. So you accept the ring and find that it is the most precious diamond in the world.

That is how God gives us His gifts. The are 100% free and all we have to do is accept them and the Bible tells us that the way to accept them is by faith. That is, by trusting in and believing in Christ. But once we accept these gifts they become so precious to us that we do everything we can to take care of the gifts and keep them safe. Plus we are so excited about the gifts that we want to tell others about these gifts and tell them that all the have to do to get these same precious gifts is accept the gifts from the gift giver . . . . “Just accept the gift I have for you”.

1/2

Continued . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

2/2 . . . .

NOT JOHN 15:1-6 (but a phantom verse based on Ianman87’s post here)
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He never cuts off any branch in me.
3 Even if that branch bears no fruit you stay in the Vine
because ALL you need to do is believe. REMAINING in me is 100% free all you’ve got to do is accept it.
Every branch that does not bear fruit; it is no big deal with regards to their salvation because being IN ME has nothing to do with your justification. It is mere sanctification. That is defined independently of justification.
4 If you are in me, you will necessarily REMAIN in me. Because you don’t have to do anything to remain in me. All you’ve got to do is accept it.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
But for that matter, neither can you bear fruit even if you remain in me.
Once in Me, once in the Vine, you cannot decide to remove yourself from the Vine by bearing no fruit because once we accept these gifts they become so precious to us that we do everything we can to take care of the gifts and keep them safe.
And if you don’t you never were REALLY “in Me” to begin with.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you were in me remember these gifts they become so precious to you that you do everything you can to take care of the gifts and keep them safe so you do not have to worry about rejecting me and bearing no fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing.
But come to think of it, WITH me you can’t do anything either. At least in regards to remaining in Me.
6 If you were in me, you will remain in me. Only the guys who never were in me in the first place are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. This being cut off from the life of Jesus, thrown into the fire and burned, merely affects their “sanctification” and does not effect their justification.
Or else those branches that were part of the Vine, were never REALLY part of the Vine to begin with.

.

Justification by faith ALONE in this sense anyway is home made folk-religion.

Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

 

[Johan]

Then part two of 1 John 2:1 doesn’t mean anything.

But part two of 1 John 2:1 does not contradict 1 John 1:8.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The verb tense in 1 John 2:1 is somewhat peculiar, because it is the only instance in this letter where John is using the aorist tense of ἁμαρτάνω (“to sin”). The aorist is typically not used for ongoing or habitual actions, but punctiliar actions (i.e., something that takes place on a certain occasion). Moreover, if John was writing this letter in order to stem immorality, it is odd that he does not present any examples of misconduct or at least gives a catalog of different “works of the flesh”, as Paul does. Instead, the urgency in John’s epistle is the threat posed by gnostic teachings, for instance that Christ was not really incarnated (1 John 4:2), and by idolatry in general (1 John 5:20). The quoted verse is also almost identical to John 16:1:

All this I have told you so that you will not fall away.

The contextual evidence considered, my take on 1 John 2:1 is that he refers to aberrations from the Gospel. This sense of “to sin” is not unique in the NT - Paul is doing the same in 1 Cor. 15:34:

Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God - I say this to your shame.

The “sinning” and the “ignorance” referenced here is the tendency among some Corinthians to deny the possibility of a resurrection from death. Such a grave aberration effectively undermined the Gospel. This interpretation also makes sense of 1 John 5:16, where the apostle states we should pray for those who sin so that God “will give them life”. This can hardly be a reference to what Catholics call “venial” sins.

And this interpretation also goes against this verse:
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory in great joy ,

I disagree (again). This is precisely what takes place in the act of justification - we are acquitted from our sins and now stand before God as faultless in Christ.

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation - if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. (Col. 1:22-23)

He has reconciled us with God so that we now are “free from accusation”.

 

[C.Longinus]

I disagree (again). This is precisely what takes place in the act of justification - we are acquitted from our sins and now stand before God as faultless in Christ.

And I disagree as well. As Romans 11 states, we are justified as along as we continue in His kindness.

 

[C.Longinus]

The contextual evidence considered, my take on 1 John 2:1 is that he refers to aberrations from the Gospel.

EVERY sin is an aberration from the Gospel.

 

[C.Longinus]

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation - if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. (Col. 1:22-23)

I like how you quote part 1 but ignore part two. It specifically says IF you continue in your faith and cling to your hope,

 

[Johan]

EVERY sin is an aberration from the Gospel.

How so? Christ came to save us from our sins (Matt. 1:21). Our sin does not pose a threat to our salvation - the salvation wrought by Christ has overcome sin and death once and for all. Unbelief is an aberration from the Gospel, and unbelief is indeed sin.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18)

 

[Johan]

I like how you quote part 1 but ignore part two. It specifically says IF you continue in your faith and cling to your hope,

On what basis do you claim that I ignore part 2 of the quoted passage? On the contrary, it reinforces the fact that we are saved through faith. Not the kind of faith that “lasts only a short time” (Matt. 13:21), but faith that is rooted in God and His gracious election.

 

[lanman87]

What would the Pastor of your church do?

The Pastor would do what he does with all who request for baptism. He ask them to give a testimony of how they came to know Christ, what it means to know Christ, and what difference knowing Christ has made in their life. If the man claimed to know Christ yet was living a worldly lifestyle then he would be asked why he was living a worldly lifestyle if he "knows Christ’. We have had baptism refused at our church until a couple stops living together. They were both taught about repentance and obedience and were later baptized and then later married.

Baptism only occurs, when to the best of his ability, the Pastor/Elder determines that a real conversion has taken place and the candidate has a “saving faith” in Christ. I say, “best of his ability”, because sometimes people, especially people reared in a Christian environment, know the “church answers” to the questions the pastor will ask and for some reason deceived and are able to deceive the pastor.