Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[De_Maria]

cont’d

THAT is Catholic Teaching.

That is like the third or fourth time I’ve quoted or link to a reformed/calvinist preacher and had someone tell me “That it very Catholic”, or “That is Catholic teaching”. I just find that interesting.

Hopefully, all of us who are Catholic are passing on the Teaching of the Church. I imagine, the equivalent from your perspective would be, “that’s in Scripture.”

Spurgeon is considered by many to be one of the greatest evangelist and preachers of the 19th Century and he was very Calvinist in his theology.

As I’ve said, I’ve been reading many Calvinist preachers and one thing they all have in common is that faith produces obedience.

What’s the point? Don’t they believe in double predestination?

John Piper puts it this way

How then does our own obedience — …“So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). Faith alone justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone. It is always accompanied by “newness of life” (Romans 6:4).

All that is in agreement with Catholic Teaching, except the last statement that “Faith alone justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone.”

That statement contradicts itself and it just seems to be an excuse to use the term “faith alone” in a positive manner. But, Scripture says that faith alone is dead.

Do you believe that it is possible for faith to not result in a “newness of life”?

Good question.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes, if a person who receives the gift of faith does not act upon that faith, AND request Baptism, his faith will not result in the “newness of life”.

It is in Baptism that we receive this gift.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism in to death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Since lanman is preaching unconditional salvation and I’m preaching conditional salvation, you must be denying conditional salvation.

I added a caveat. Something you continually ignore. Matter of fact, you seem not to have read my quote in its entirety.

If I didn’t make myself clear, I will now. There are NO strings to salvation, only the possibility of losing it if we fail to maintain that gift.

So, you deny that faith, works, repentance, love, keeping the Commandments and obedience are necessary for salvation?

 

[lagerald24]

This article is very insightful: Does the Bible Teach Sola Fide? | Called to Communion

 

[C.Longinus]

So, you deny that faith, works, repentance, love, keeping the Commandments and obedience are necessary for salvation?

The sacraments are avenues of salvation. Obedience is how one maintains salvation.

 

[De_Maria]

The sacraments are avenues of salvation. Obedience is how one maintains salvation.

So, you admit at least one string. Obedience. How about faith, works, repentance, love, and keeping the Commandments?

 

[lagerald24]

Catholic doctrine in a nutshell y’all:

Faith alone does not justify us, neither are we justified by works alone. Works of Law, either moral or ceremonial, cannot perfectly justify us. When we are justified, we are not merely declared just but are rather made just (2nd Cor. 5:21), becoming partakers in the Divine nature as 2nd Peter 1:3 says. Our justification begins by God’s initiative of grace and progresses through the cooperation or synergy of faith and works. See Philippians 2:12-13 and 2nd Cor. 6:1.

 

[De_Maria]

That verse does not say that sin endangers our salvation, and yours is a dangerous idea indeed, because it suggests that Christ has not overcome sin on our behalf. The Christian person is torn between two mental forces: the renewed spiritual mind and the fleshly mind that is still enslaved to sin. Our hope of salvation is found only in Christ who sets us free (John 8:36).

How about this verse?

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 King James Version (KJV)​

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[C.Longinus]

How about faith, works, repentance, love, and keeping the Commandments?

I feel like I already covered those bases.

 

[Techno2000]

I was wondering how Catholics reconcile Romans 2:13

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

with the numerous text that say we are righteous by faith, apart from the law? (I’ve listed a couple)

Such as Romans 3: 21-23 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law , for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Was Paul contradicting himself or is there a reason he says you are justified by doing the law then turns around and says we are justified by apart from the law?

I know the Evangelical/Protestant answer to this question. I was just wondering how Catholics see it?

God opening up Heaven for mankind was a free gift , but your level of glory in Heaven is determined by your good works.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

As I’ve said, I’ve been reading many Calvinist preachers and one thing they all have in common is that faith produces obedience.

This is true as far as what it asserts.

But when we are born again we are infused with not only a supernatural faith, but supernatural hope and charity too.

And if your works flow from faith DIVORCED of charity they are NOT salvific. Nor is your faith.

Your works DO flow from your faith. But not MERELY from your faith. Your works need to flow from your charity (“love”) too.

Here is St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 telling us about a guy, who even gives up his body to be burned.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:1-3, 8, 13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love, (St. Paul talks of the importance of love here)
I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, (great gifts described here)
AND if I have ALL FAITH, so as to remove mountains,
(Hold it! St. Paul says “ALL” FAITH!! That is a lot of “faith”. Even allowing for “moving mountains” being a proverbial expression it still
describes an enormous “FAITH.”)
BUT have NOT love, I am nothing.
(At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear someone wrongly say we are all “nothing” anyway . . . BUT . . . they might say. . . we still GAIN Heaven anyway due to FAITH. BUT St. Paul doesn’t say that!)
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned,
but have not love, I gain nothing (notice he does NOT GAIN Heaven. This guy WITH FAITH, and WORKS like giving up his body) motivated presumably by this faith, still GAINS NOTHING!). . . .
. . . 8 Love never ends (Charitable works are your “treasures in Heaven” that never decay away that Jesus referred to in Matthew 6:19-20); as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. . . .
. . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three;
but the greatest of these is love (if we were justified by faith ALONE the GREATEST of these virtues would have to be “FAITH”.
But that is NOT what St. Paul says!
He said the GREATEST of these virtues is love (charity).
Hardly what you would expect if St. Paul believed in the false gospel of justification by faith ALONE. Something that St. Paul teaches NOWHERE. Also the rest of the Bible ALSO teach this tradition nowhere.)

.

Here it is again . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 13:1-3, 8, 13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love,
I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge,
AND if I have ALL FAITH,
so as to remove mountains,
BUT have NOT love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned,
but have not love, I gain nothing. . . .
. . . 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. . . .
. . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Parenthesis and emphasis above mine.

 

[Cathoholic]

St. Paul and the Holy Spirit teaches . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

If St. Paul believed in justification by faith ALONE, you would expect him to say

(Not) 1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three;
but the greatest of these is of course FAITH.
The greatest of these is FAITH, because after all, we are justified by faith ALONE and what could be of more importance than our salvation?

 

[SyCarl]

Yes there is a duty but for Protestants it is not part of justification but of sanctification. A lot of it comes down to terminology again. Catholics give a broader meaning to justification than Protestants who spread things out among regeneration, justification and sanctification. Just because we do not place works under justification doesn’t mean we deny the necessity of them.

Even Calvin said that are required for righteousness.

We, indeed, allow that good works are required for righteousness; we only take away from them the power of conferring righteousness, because they cannot stand before the tribunal of God.
John Calvin: Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Sanctification is where we strive to become righteous but that righteousness is not achieved in this life time since God’s standard is perfection and we will not be perfect in this life.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
(Mat 5:43-48)

I will offer a quote from Augustine.

Therefore the first commandment about righteousness, which bids us love the Lord with all our heart, and soul, and mind (the next to which is, that we love our neighbour as ourselves), we shall completely fulfil in that life when we shall see face to face. But even now this commandment is enjoined upon us, that we may be reminded what we ought by faith to require, and what we should in our hope look forward to, and, “forgetting the things which are behind, reach forth to the things which are before.” And thus, as it appears to me, that man has made a far advance, even in the present life, in the righteousness which is to be perfected hereafter, who has discovered by this very advance how very far removed he is from the completion of righteousness.
(On the Spirit and the Letter, Chapters 64-65)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1502.htm

Chrysostom says:

God’s mission was not to save people in order that they may remain barren or inert. For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent.

Homily on Ephesians 4.2.9. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 134.

to be continued

 

[SyCarl]

continued

When Paul talks about works of the law it is not restricted to circumcision, or dietary and ceremonial matters. He says:

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:20)

He also says:

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
(Rom 3:31)

How do circumcision and the like give us knowledge of sin and how does faith uphold such a restricted meaning of law? Paul clearly includes the moral law here. It is pretty clear that saying we are “justified by faith apart from works of the law” excludes works from justification.

Scripture tells us that hope is part of faith.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
(Hebrews 11:1)

Repentance and humility would again be accounted for under regeneration and sanctification.

You place obedience as part of justification because of your wider definition of the term.
We don’t deny but it again is placed under sanctification. With respect to Abraham obeying God through faith this is again sanctification. He obeys because of his faith. His faith produces works. It comes down again to definitions.

Faith alone is not a new concept. Many of the early church father refer to it.

John Chrysostom

He had accused the Gentiles he had accused the Jews; it came next in order to mention the righteousness which is by faith. For if the law of nature availed not, and the written Law was of no advantage, but both weighed down those that used them not aright, and made it plain that they were worthy of greater punishment, then after this the salvation which is by grace was necessary…But after saying that “it was excluded,” he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? “By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only….But since after this grace, whereby we were justified, there is need also of a life suited to it, let us show an earnestness worthy the gift. And show it we shall, if we keep with earnestness charity, the mother of good deeds

(Homilies on Romans, Homily 7)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm

He does not deny the need for works but we are not justified by them. Note in the law he is referring to he includes both the law of nature and the written law.

Another example:

They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed .

(Homilies on Galatians, Homily 3)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm

continued

 

[SyCarl]

continued

Ambrosiaster:

This refers to somebody who is bound by sin and who therefore does not do what the law commands. Paul says this because to an ungodly person, that is to a Gentile, who believes in Christ without doing the works of the law, his faith is reckoned for righteousness just as Abraham’s was. How then can the Jews think that they have been justified by the works of the law in the same way as Abraham, when they see that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law but by faith alone? Therefore there is no need of the law when the ungodly is justified before God by faith alone…Paul back this up by the example of the prophet David, who says that those are blessed of whom God has decreed that, without work or any keeping of the law, they are justified before God by faith alone. Therefore he foretells the blessedness of the time when Christ was born, just as the Lord himself said: “Many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see and to hear what you hear and did not hear it”

(Commentary on Paul’s Epistles (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 108-109.))

Marius Victorinus

Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous

(Epistle to the Galatians, 1.3.7. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 39.)

Theodore of Mopsuestia

He has made use of many proofs, since he knew the Jews especially questioned faith by means of a certain line of argument. For the Jews were setting forth the law and righteousness by their works, but Christians set forth faith, saying that even if someone should be guilty of ten thousand evils, by only believing in Christ he receives immediately deliverance from all of them, being deemed worthy of justification from him. Therefore, having determined this, then partly to appropriate the things that had been said before and partly to be able to show that faith appeared among all the virtuous men of old, he adds, “by faith the men of old received divine approval.”

(Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 11.1-2 Erik M. Heen & Philip D. W. Krey ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament X, Hebrews, (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2005), p. 173.)

 

[De_Maria]

Yes there is a duty but for Protestants it is not part of justification but of sanctification. A lot of it comes down to terminology again. Catholics give a broader meaning to justification than Protestants who spread things out among regeneration, justification and sanctification. Just because we do not place works under justification doesn’t mean we deny the necessity of them. …

Do you deny the necessity of them for salvation?

Sanctification is where we strive to become righteous but that righteousness is not achieved in this life time since God’s standard is perfection and we will not be perfect in this life.

Can God make you perfect in this life?

How do circumcision and the like give us knowledge of sin and how does faith uphold such a restricted meaning of law? Paul clearly includes the moral law here. It is pretty clear that saying we are “justified by faith apart from works of the law” excludes works from justification.

He’s describing the Sacraments.

Repentance and humility would again be accounted for under regeneration and sanctification.

To the lifelong process of salvation.

You place obedience as part of justification because of your wider definition of the term.

Is obedience part of God’s plan for our salvation?

We don’t deny but it again is placed under sanctification. With respect to Abraham obeying God through faith this is again sanctification. He obeys because of his faith. His faith produces works. It comes down again to definitions.

Would Abraham have been saved if he had not obeyed God?

He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only ….But since after this grace, whereby we were justified, there is need also of a life suited to it, let us show an earnestness worthy the gift.

St. John Chrysostom is describing the Sacraments. It is in the mighty works of God that we stand and proclaiming our faith in His operation, we are justified.

He does not deny the need for works but we are not justified by them.

Thank you! Can you see, then, that it is only those who do good works who are justified by God? See Romans 2:13

You’re naming all the Early Church Fathers, but you don’t recognize that they are describing the Sacraments. It is in the Sacraments that we stand before God, call on His Name, He sees our faith, declares that it is because of our faith that we are righteous and by His Mercy washes our souls.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sy Carl . . . .

Yes there is a duty but for Protestants it is not part of justification but of sanctification.

If sanctification is a “duty” (regarding your state in life) then it is at least part of justification.

(Which is the Catholic position. See CCC 2019 below)

CCC 2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

If sanctification is a “duty” but it is an “optional” ah hem, “duty”, then it is not a “duty” at all.
Then it is an OPTION.

Which is exactly WHY I keep asking you and others, “but do you HAVE TO” work?

As soon as you say “yes” it is going to figure into your process of justification.

As soon as you say “no” you reduce “faith” down to an unbiblical and mere intellectual assent.

The history quotes are irrelevant and if you do a search, I have dealt with them before.

All the history quotes are talking about faith alone in terms of faith (fides) being FIDELITY.

Fidelity includes behavior.

Just ask the spouse of someone whose spouse committed INFidelity.

And we know these Fathers are talking about “faith” in such action-associated terms . . . because if you look elsewhere in those same people’s writings, they ALSO talk about the NECCESSITY of WORKING too!

Which floored me as to why you would use the St. John Chrysostom quote (???) to pretend to support sola fide.

Why?

Because the very next sentence after your bold from your own quote, St. John Chrysostom talks about the necessity of WORKING.

We can’t work and earn salvation. It was a free gift.
And after we have the life of Christ although we can and must merit, even then only Christ can STRICTLY merit. It is because of Him we now CAN and must merit.

Here is the same quote from you with a different bold.

He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only ….But since after this grace, whereby we were justified, there is NEED ALSO of a life suited to it, let us show an earnestness worthy the gift. And show it we shall, if we keep with earnestness charity, the mother of good deeds . . .

After you have the Trinitarian life in you (“after this grace, whereby we were justified”, you MUST (“NEED ALSO” to) WORK.

Charity is greater than faith (see 1 Cor 13:13 above here). That is exactly WHY, St. John Chrysostom calls charity the “mother of good deeds”.

That’s WHY Jesus says to whom much is given (Christ is “MUCH” Sy), much will be REQUIRED in Luke 12:48!

That is WHY I have provided evidence above that this is also associated with your state in life (see my discussion on the parable of talents here and verses above in addition to Lk 12:48).

Justification by faith ALONE, is a tradition of men that nullifies the word of God.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sy Carl . . .

With respect to Abraham obeying God through faith this is again sanctification. He obeys because of his faith.

You don’t know that Sy. (What if he obeyed because of his charity? Or because of his faith, hope, AND charity?)

Abraham’s obedience was described earlier in Genesis than his faith being reckoned to him as righteousness.

I agree they were in tandem.

But you are attempting to pretend Abraham had this faith ALONE, and later his good works grew out of that.

Go back and look at Genesis. If I recall correctly Abraham’s obedience was described four or five chapters earlier.

The same obedience of faith that Hebrews talks about in Hebrews 11 (that I already mentioned above).

Or go to Youtube and watch Steve Ray unpack it (he does a lot better job then me).

Or you can do a search as I have used Ray’s (and others) (name removed by moderator)ut and put it to writing here years ago.

It’s all there complete with verses.

Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men, that makes void the word and commandments of God.

 

[SyCarl]

The duty to pursue righteousness is not part of justification for most Protestants define it differently than the Catholic Church. The renewal of the inner man takes place in regeneration and sanctification in sanctification. Justification is the forgiveness of sin and an imputation of righteousness. Putting works in another place does not negate the need for sanctification and striving for righteousness. The main difference is that the works don’t merit anything. They are imperfect in this life and we owe everything we can do to God in the first place.

As I said putting works in a different place doesn’t change their necessity. I would liken it to the 10 Commandments. In the Protestant view Catholics combine the first two commandments and split the last one. That doesn’t mean the Catholic Church has rejected the commandments because they number them differently. In the same way splitting salvation into regeneration, justification and sanctification, glorification is after death, doesn’t change the content of the salvation process. Our difference not the necessity of works but rather is whether they merit anything.

The quotes are quite relevant. John Chrysostom does support faith alone. I purposely included the last part of the quote with respect to works. He says “we were justified”, using the past tense so the life suited to it comes after justification. If he includes works in “fidelity” there would be no need to say we also need a life suited to it. This is made even clearer in the first quote I gave from him where he says “…What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works” I don’t think that he can be much clearer about excluding works from justification.

I could give several more quotes from Chrysostom but I will limit it to one.

“And the Law is not of faith; but He that does them shall live in them.”…For the Law requires not only Faith but works also, but grace saves and justifies by Faith… and moreover as Abraham was justified by Faith, it is evident that its efficacy is very great.

(Homilies on Galatians, Homily 3, Verse 12)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm

The Law equals faith and works grace requires faith.

I will also give a quote from Augustine.

Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,—in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace.

(Treatise on the Spirit and the Letter, Chapter 22)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xi.xxv.html

 

[SyCarl]

continued

With respect to 1 Corinthians 13 the entire flow of what Paul is saying must be taken in context. Remember that the original letter wasn’t split into chapters and verses. In Chapter 12 Paul goes through the gifts of the Spirit, one of which is faith. Others include prophesy, tongues and knowledge. These gifts are given to people who are already have faith and the faith in chapter 13 is in addition to and different from the initirace. Paul then explains that people with different gifts are all members of one body. In chapter 13 he says that the spiritual gifts won’t help a person if they don’t have love, so it is the spiritual gift, not the initial faith, that is useless without love. Then in chapter 14 he explains why prophesy is the greatest gift of the Spirit.

We know that faith itself includes hope.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

(Hebrews11:1)

Paul tells us that:

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

(Romans 8:24)

So love is greatest because it is the one that continues into eternity when faith and hope are no longer needed because we have and see the things in which we had faith.

 

[SyCarl]

We know Abraham obeyed because of his faith because Scripture tells us so.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.

(Hebrews 11:8-9)

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

(Hebrews 11:17-18)