Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
oh… now you’re just rationalizing, I mean stereotyping.
- Status
P
phantasm
Guest
I’m not going to educate you about your glorious faith, figure it out yourself.
P
phantasm
Guest
Not in the least. I know you really want to believe that things are really crummy for me, but I’m going to have to dissapoint you on that one.
The only difference between my believing days and my present unbelief, is I have less anxiety and I no longer believe in the Christian brand of God.
P
phantasm
Guest
No it’s not rational, it’s a natural evolutionary response to protect your genetic offspring from harm.When I had my first child, I finally understood the unconditional love of Jesus. Here was this miracle of flesh from my flesh. I had known this child for only minutes, and I was ready to give up my whole life in care of it. It’s only response was to cry, sleep, and deliver dirty diapers! I couldn’t wait to have another one!
That’s not rational!:
D
DJgang
Guest
So how about how you treat other people? You say that you have less anxiety … what about those around you … since your anxiety is less seems like you would treat others better, with more patience, less anger, etc. …
Since this is a recovering catholic thread, I’m sure others would like you to share … (btw, I haven’t read all your posts…time ya know… but if you want to point me in a direction
)Welcome to the forum!
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
PUH leese. I know you are more original than that.:crying:
P
phantasm
Guest
It’s an observable scientific phenomena in most mammals on this earth and even some birds. I don’t need to ’ get original ’ when I’m talking about things that are quite simply, true beyond any doubt.
S
SpiritMeadow
Guest
Just because you do believe in a particular thing doesn’t make it true either. It may seem logical to you that God wanted a church created. It is not the only logical deduction of course. I suppose it could also be logical that it be infallible, but of course their are many other logical deductions to that as well. I believe Jesus’ words, the problem is in defining Jesus words from the beliefs of the writer who definitely was about the business of convincing rather than merely reporting. Many many biblical experts would tell you that it is believed that references to “church” are later additions to the documents to reflect what had in fact occurred, rather than what Jesus in fact said.
In any case, non-RC’s would claim that the church referred to is the universal church, and in all its parts, it contains and reflects truth as best as we have been able to discern. This is an ongoing process.
I see no particular reason why God would ordain that any church be kept free from error. If that is the case, then God has usurped from humanity that which he granted, free will to learn and use the minds he gave us. If it’s to be all handed down to some group of men infallibly, then we are not using the very gifts granted to us as human beings.
If you insist that it is an either or proposition, then I ask you, why did Jesus continue to preach and teach in the synagogue? There is nothing to suggest that he was other than a Jew practicing Judaism. It seems more rational that he was trying to reform an outdated and form practicing religion, his own, rather than start something new. Sound at all familiar? Jesus recognized better than some of us that faith is constantly being renewed and must be regularly questioned as to whether it is fulfilling its purpose. He urged CHANGE in practices that no longer were accomplishing their purpose.
There is only one true church, it is called Christendom,
You should not spend a moment thinking for yourself if you are convinced that a number of men have decided the truth and correctly. How you do that I have no clue, but if you are satisfied, then so be it. I find it a denigration of God’s gift of mind. Did God leave the Jews stranded until he sent Jesus? Luther has not a thing to do with this. I don’t consider him as any prophet. He raised some good points, many frankly were later adopted by the RCC.
We are not talking about works versus grace. Works help identify one who is truly following God’s offer of grace to the conclusion of giving forth in love and service. But I was referring to the fact that some, even Catholics actually believe that a loving God saves all, which means that we can give willingly out of pure love, and not out of the need to secure salvation.
I have no idea, and don’t understand your point. I recall some years ago a woman whose daughter or son was murdered who now visits and works for the release of her child’s killer. I recall seeing a similar report about a man who had also done so, perhaps in a drunk driving situation. Do you deny that they are perfect examples of forgiveness and the loving charity of God?
What is love? Oh my. It is selfless giving of self. Would you say Mother Theresa understood what love was? Gandhi? How about Kolbe? or Bonhoffer? There are a whole host of people we can learn love from. I would urge you to read about them if you need to learn what love means.
Certainly people can really do that. Many do. How can you have such a poor understanding of the many saints in history? Many were entirely self-less, and we are all called to be the same. It is most certainly not easy, but that changes nothing does it?
Stephen168
New member
This is the fallacy of composition. What is true for the part is true for the whole. The Edsel was bad, so all Fords are bad. The Church doesn’t have free will, so mankind doesn’t have free will.
His Church does not contain all of mankind. His Church is free from error while mankind has free will. Man is free to join his church and or leave it at will.
P
phantasm
Guest
Under punishment of eternal DAMNATION!
( Que sinister laughter and thunderclaps for effect)
Q
Quarles47
Guest
Well, I just respond that I’m a recovering protestant and am surely on the right path.
Stephen168
New member
I’m not God, so I couldn’t say. I was addressing her logic.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
This is pure speculation on your part and on the part of those for whom evolution fits their ideology. The evolution of one species to another has never been proven, only mutations within the species.
If protection of genetic offspring is a natual evolutionary response, why is it that some animals eat their young?
Would you agree that by your logic, if love is the an evolutionary response to protect your genetic offispring, then love must also be natural response to conintue your genetic offspring, to be fruitful and muliply?
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
That’s presumptious. Only God knows a person’s soul and frame of mind.
You have the conception of a scowling God, book in hand, writing down your every transgression so he can condemn you to eternal Hell.
In fact our God is a loving God, slow to anger, rich in kindness, and abounding in mercy.
L
Lainey63
Guest
The only people I’ve ever heard of calling themselves 'recovering catholics" are in AA & during meetings. I just want to raise my hand and say “No, you’re not a recovering catholic-you’re a fallen catholic” But, one man did say something that I had thought of before and he just confirmed my thought. And this pretty much applies to alcoholics and addicts as a whole. We tend to process things differently because we are selfish, self-centered & ego maniacs with inferiority complexes. After entering into recovery and we begin to do some work on ourselves we can see that we suffered from this inability to process messages & behaviors as children-we tend to be more negative than most people or hyper sensative. So while we can understand that in other areas of our life-we stop at our faith, and I figured I must have done the same with my faith. I don’t think normal kids in the second grade feel like they are going to hell and all the good things God has to offer we for others & not for me…because I interpreted it all wrong. By the time I was in 8th grade, I was completely convinced that is where I was to go. Anyway, back to the subject-this man said exactly what I was thinking, if we processed other things wrong, don’t you think we processed our faith wrong as well? So I guess really I am a recovering catholic in the true sense of the meaning.
Thanks Be To God.
Thanks Be To God.
P
phantasm
Guest
How modern Christians love to ignore the true nature of their Lord and the passages of scripture where it is written.That’s presumptious. Only God knows a person’s soul and frame of mind.
You have the conception of a scowling God, book in hand, writing down your every transgression so he can condemn you to eternal Hell.
In fact our God is a loving God, slow to anger, rich in kindness, and abounding in mercy.
Exodus 20:5
For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;
Luke 14:26
"If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
2 Chronicles 21:15
The LORD will strike your people, your children, your wives, and all that is yours with a great plague;
and you shall have severe pains from a disease in your bowels, while your bowels issue forth because of the disease, day after day.’"
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
You are as bad as Fundies, cherry-picking verses to support your view.
The Israelites already KNEW God, and turned their backs to him and worshipped idols and practiced immorality.
Dt 4:7-9*
For what great nation is there
that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us
whenever we call upon him?
Or what great nation has statutes and decrees
that are as just as this whole law
which I am setting before you today?
“However, take care and be earnestly on your guard
not to forget the things which your own eyes have seen,
nor let them slip from your memory as long as you live,
but teach them to your children and to your children’s children*.”
The Israelites failed to teach their children, and within one generation, God was forgotten.
You, Phantasm, don’t know God, so you can’t be guilty of turning your back on Him.
S
SpiritMeadow
Guest
I didn’t suggest that, you did. In my tradition, we believe that reason is the third linch pin of faith along with scripture and tradition. We believe each person brings their mind to the table as it were. We believe that God gifted us with minds to do so. To fail to use it because a church group has done it for us is simply not acceptable as we see it. It denies the gift given as unimportant in favor of an institutional “mind.” That is a voluntary handing over of free will to determine truth as we believe means it to be.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
You can Google anything you want, but that doesn’t mean you understand the meaning. You are just like the Evangelicals, taking the Bible literalistly. Hating here means putting other people before God. In the OT FEAR is used for love. FEAR of the Lord means love and respect. Read your footnotes.
Misinterpreting the language and literature in context is the reason there are 33,000+ denominations out there protesting the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus. You may not believe Jesus was the son of God, but He did exist, he did have 12 Apostles, and they did start a Church on Pentecost Sunday when the Holy Spirit descended upon them.
You are free to think the Apostles were drunk and babbling nonsense. But the fact is, it happened. Your interpretation of what happened is different from mine.
P
phantasm
Guest
Sounds like your telling me that I’ve got to put a different spin on the good Lord giving children a painful bowel disease.
It’s written, it happened, it’s your God, it’s your faith, it’s Gods painful bowel disease, deal with it.
- Status