Reduction of violence connected to the production and distribution of drugs

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St_Francis

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In the US, we tried Prohibition (of alcohol) back in the 20s and a lot of violence grew up around rum-running, etc.

So we repealed it.

What about the tremendous amounts of violence surrounding the drug trade? It continues because drugs are illegal. If we legalized drugs, then all the areangements would fall under the law–we could regulate it. Instead of drug-lords taking over towns along the drug routes and killing and kidnapping people, we’d have some peace.

So… would this be more moral than what we are doing now?
 
St_Francis said:
In the US, we tried Prohibition (of alcohol) back in the 20s and a lot of violence grew up around rum-running, etc.

So we repealed it.

What about the tremendous amounts of violence surrounding the drug trade? It continues because drugs are illegal. If we legalized drugs, then all the areangements would fall under the law–we could regulate it. Instead of drug-lords taking over towns along the drug routes and killing and kidnapping people, we’d have some peace.

So… would this be more moral than what we are doing now?
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Criminal violence isn’t the only issue, though. Street drugs are deadly to people, socially, morally and physically. I realize lots of people think it would be good to allow people to buy and sell them freely. And yet, they would never countenance putting lead paint in childrens’ toys or spent uranium in tableware.

Alcohol was not a serious threat to everyone who used it. Street drugs are. I don’t think comparing them is apt.

And there are still illegal sellers of alcohol and cigarettes.

Quite possibly guarding the border would help. But this government doesn’t want to do that.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Criminal violence isn’t the only issue, though. Street drugs are deadly to people, socially, morally and physically. I realize lots of people think it would be good to allow people to buy and sell them freely. And yet, they would never countenance putting lead paint in childrens’ toys or spent uranium in tableware.
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Another advantage of legalization would be that these dangers would be reduced. For example, a lot of overdoses are caused by people getting something stronger than what they’re used to.
Alcohol was not a serious threat to everyone who used it. Street drugs are. I don’t think comparing them is apt.
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And there are still illegal sellers of alcohol and cigarettes.
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These people are evading taxes on the products; you can still get them legally. In some states, the taxes double or maybe even triple the price of cigarettes. When we have too high a tax, then people try to evade it.
Quite possibly guarding the border would help. But this government doesn’t want to do that.
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There is that too.
 
St_Francis said:
In the US, we tried Prohibition (of alcohol) back in the 20s and a lot of violence grew up around rum-running, etc.

So we repealed it.

What about the tremendous amounts of violence surrounding the drug trade? It continues because drugs are illegal. If we legalized drugs, then all the areangements would fall under the law–we could regulate it. Instead of drug-lords taking over towns along the drug routes and killing and kidnapping people, we’d have some peace.

So… would this be more moral than what we are doing now?
Click to expand...
This is a common topic among Americans nowadays. At first glance it would appear the correct action to take would to legalize drugs and in fact there is a big push for this even among some Christians. Therefore, I fully expect marijuana to be legalized in most states and then following that cocaine, all this in my lifetime, in spite of the clear historical danger of allowing legal mind altering drugs.

Some will point out that marijuana is not very powerful mind altering drug, but all of us that have used it know it leads to harder drugs.

Nonetheless, the real issue here isn’t drugs, it is that we as a nation have discarded responsible Christian family values for a godless individualism that is not concerned with the consequences of it’s actions, which is ultimately the destruction of the society as we know it.

So there you have it, The US will increasingly have to change it’s laws and redefine right and wrong in order to not bankrupt is penal system to the point that we become a police state that lets the masses have their “opium” for the sake of control or we disintegrate outright.
 
The argument that Marijuana doesn’t addict or hurt anyone is absolute nonsense! My oldest son shot and killed himself while under its influence. No one knows if it was intentional or accidential. He was fooling with a loaded Derringer while he was stoned and the gun went off, the bullet entering his eye.
Being an ex-marine, he would not have recklessly fooled with a firearm had he not been stoned.
Apart from my personal experience with it, just look at the statistics of automobile accidents in which the driver was stoned or partly stoned. The number is almost that of accidents involving alcohol.
The difference between Marijuana and alcohol is that one can imbibe alcohol to enjoy its flavor without getting high or drunk. There is no way that one can ingest (smoke) marijuana and not get stoned. Therefore, not legalizing it is a no-brainer.
 
St_Francis said:
In the US, we tried Prohibition (of alcohol) back in the 20s and a lot of violence grew up around rum-running, etc.

So we repealed it.

What about the tremendous amounts of violence surrounding the drug trade? It continues because drugs are illegal. If we legalized drugs, then all the areangements would fall under the law–we could regulate it. Instead of drug-lords taking over towns along the drug routes and killing and kidnapping people, we’d have some peace.

So… would this be more moral than what we are doing now?
Click to expand...
I think that we believe, wrongly, that the mafia will just go away if we simply legalize all illegal activities. First of all, you can’t legalize all illegal activities. Well, you could, but it wouldn’t be advisable. Things are illegal for a good reason.

I live in Mexico, and they have this idea of legalizing what’s illegal, hoping to control it, and won’t let of it! We tried, unsuccessfully, to legalize prostitution. Well, yeah, we have it in force in the “Zona Roja” (Red zone), outside of the city somewhere. I heard it is thriving.

HOWEVER, the hope was that this would STOP, or at the very least, decrease, prostitution elsewhere. You know, since I’ve lived here, I don’t think I’ve ever in my entire life seen as much open prostitution as in the city where I live! I mean, they openly do prostitution…gay, straight, and I don’t see where this law did one bit of good! In fact, it seems to have made matters worse!

Once, I was just visiting here with my ex-husband, let my guard down for about 5 min., and I was nearly raped! Yeah. Well, later, when the police and everybody came, I was told by the hotel we were staying that next door was prostitution! I happened to innocently use a phone to call a friend while I was in town, but normally that’s used by prostitutes. Well, I didn’t know that! So, I actually got caught up in it.

It took me a while before I could sleep well at night, not be afraid.

I also lived in a place where there seemed to be prostitution, men coming day and night, in and out. I also lived in another place. As an insomniac, I’d watch cars coming and going, about every 2 hours or so, all night.

As to the mafia, that you, and others, seem to naively think you can stop so easily. That’s going full force, is unfortunately, stronger than ever. Yeah, I know you want to legalize drugs in the States, not Mexico, but still, I believe the same kinds of things would happen there, that it wouldn’t work, only make matters much worse.

I could, if I wanted, walk a few blocks and watch the prostitution, if I so chose. So, I do NOT believe this for one second that legalization of the illegal is the answer! I don’t think that because we believe we can’t beat them that we should join them.

Further, the city I live in also had the idea of trying to also do away with graffiti, using this very same strategy, legalizing it in designated areas. Okay…so we have all this UGLY graffiti in zones regulated by the government…saying…graffitize here!

Okay…those ugly areas are plastered with graffiti as is most everything else! Again, this policy did NOTHING. In fact, again, I think it made matters much worse! Legalizing graffiti. Legalizing prostitution…legalizing drugs…I predict this will be a dismal failure, and once it’s done, it will be very difficult to reverse and undo once that Pandora’s box has been opened. It will establish a precedent.

I think the legalization of drugs will be harder, one, because before, dogs could just sniff and catch people. Now, they will have to sniff, and you’ll have to weigh and all. It’ll just be a harder process. Also, people will often think because it’s legal that it’s okay and good, want to do it. So MORE people will get involved.

The best way to reduce drugs, and its related violence, is to decrease it at the source…that people stop buying it. About anything else won’t really work.
 
we legalize the sale of drugs, doe’s this mean people who are selling now will stop ? i’m sure that the sale of drugs to minors will never be legal,will sales stop to minors ? :rolleyes: of course not.🤷
 
Further, I have lived next to people, different times, here in Mexico, where my neighbors smoked marijuana. Especially on weekends, all this would come over whafting to me.

With alcohol, one person can be affected. With marijuana, what about all the neighbors who will get high, without even wanting to?
 
Look at what happened when they legalized marijuana…I forget where. They celebrated with the world’s largest pot party, and the police gave out Doritos!
 
It’s interesting to read old novels. Sometimes they’re instructive. As near as one can tell, there was a lot of addiction before drugs like heroin were outlawed and drugs like opium, morphine and cocaine tightly controlled. And a lot of it happened either without people being aware how addictive they are or, knowing it, thought somehow it would turn out differently with them.

As to marijuana, I have known a lot of stoners in my life, and frankly, I’m glad they have to at least go to a little trouble to get stoned enough to kill someone on the highway. And as worthless as it often makes people, total access can’t possibly be good for them or for those who may be dependent on them.
 
There is a lot of damage done by drugs. Just as there is a lot of damage done by alcohol which is still far and away the leading cause of DWI-related car accidents.

There is also a lot of damage done by the war on drugs. Just as there was also damage done by the war on alcohol. We decided as a people that we didn’t need the war on alcohol anymore. I’m sensing a certain weariness with the War on Drugs which really hasn’t made any progress in the forty years plus since Nixon declared it. Where is the line? Who decides? What is the cost to society of the drug violence? the additional prisoners? Who are the professionals who advocate for their own interests in continuing the War on Drugs? The costs of waging this war are ever escalating, yet the profits on the other side are also rising as well. I can’t even begin to imagine the corrupting effects of the money on both sides. Again, who decides where the lines should be drawn?

Yes there are still illegal alcohol and cigarette makers. But I see that as a function of the taxes imposed on them. Make the taxes onerous enough, people will look for alternatives as they have done throughout history.

Incentives matter…
 
St_Francis said:
In the US, we tried Prohibition (of alcohol) back in the 20s and a lot of violence grew up around rum-running, etc.

So we repealed it.

What about the tremendous amounts of violence surrounding the drug trade? It continues because drugs are illegal. If we legalized drugs, then all the areangements would fall under the law–we could regulate it. Instead of drug-lords taking over towns along the drug routes and killing and kidnapping people, we’d have some peace.

So… would this be more moral than what we are doing now?
Click to expand...
I think it’s more like saying the war on stealing cars and other valuables has failed. Abusing drugs is what it says. Do we really need to have alcohol abusers and drug abusers? What is the percentage of people who use alcohol in moderation compared to those who don’t? There are negative effects to using illegal drugs. There is plenty of information about it.

We could regulate it how? Open Bob’s Dope House and buy a little bit of this and a little of that? People imagine that tax revenues would be generated, but that’s not likely. People are using abandoned houses in the US, stealing electricity and using every square foot to grow marijuana. Why risk crossing the border with the stuff when you can grow your own?

wlox.com/story/19847695/major-marijuana-bust-at-two-grow-houses-in-harrison-county

And what about loss of revenue and possible rehab costs for those who are adversely affected? And if they can’t pay, who does?

The moral thing to do is discourage the people you know from trying illegal drugs in the first place. I also wouldn’t tell anyone to start your own meth lab to make a little cash.

Peace,
Ed
 
Catolico65 said:
This is a common topic among Americans nowadays. At first glance it would appear the correct action to take would to legalize drugs and in fact there is a big push for this even among some Christians. Therefore, I fully expect marijuana to be legalized in most states and then following that cocaine, all this in my lifetime, in spite of the clear historical danger of allowing legal mind altering drugs.

Some will point out that marijuana is not very powerful mind altering drug, but all of us that have used it know it leads to harder drugs.

Nonetheless, the real issue here isn’t drugs, it is that we as a nation have discarded responsible Christian family values for a godless individualism that is not concerned with the consequences of it’s actions, which is ultimately the destruction of the society as we know it.

So there you have it, The US will increasingly have to change it’s laws and redefine right and wrong in order to not bankrupt is penal system to the point that we become a police state that lets the masses have their “opium” for the sake of control or we disintegrate outright.
Click to expand...
Well, we have already been legalizing activities because so many are involved, right? Birth control, abortion (well, sadly, that’s certainly an argument against my proposal!), homosexual behavior, etc.
 
ClearWater said:
I think that we believe, wrongly, that the mafia will just go away if we simply legalize all illegal activities. First of all, you can’t legalize all illegal activities. Well, you could, but it wouldn’t be advisable. Things are illegal for a good reason.

I live in Mexico, and they have this idea of legalizing what’s illegal, hoping to control it, and won’t let of it! We tried, unsuccessfully, to legalize prostitution. Well, yeah, we have it in force in the “Zona Roja” (Red zone), outside of the city somewhere. I heard it is thriving.

HOWEVER, the hope was that this would STOP, or at the very least, decrease, prostitution elsewhere. You know, since I’ve lived here, I don’t think I’ve ever in my entire life seen as much open prostitution as in the city where I live! I mean, they openly do prostitution…gay, straight, and I don’t see where this law did one bit of good! In fact, it seems to have made matters worse!

Once, I was just visiting here with my ex-husband, let my guard down for about 5 min., and I was nearly raped! Yeah. Well, later, when the police and everybody came, I was told by the hotel we were staying that next door was prostitution! I happened to innocently use a phone to call a friend while I was in town, but normally that’s used by prostitutes. Well, I didn’t know that! So, I actually got caught up in it.

It took me a while before I could sleep well at night, not be afraid.

I also lived in a place where there seemed to be prostitution, men coming day and night, in and out. I also lived in another place. As an insomniac, I’d watch cars coming and going, about every 2 hours or so, all night.

As to the mafia, that you, and others, seem to naively think you can stop so easily. That’s going full force, is unfortunately, stronger than ever. Yeah, I know you want to legalize drugs in the States, not Mexico, but still, I believe the same kinds of things would happen there, that it wouldn’t work, only make matters much worse.

I could, if I wanted, walk a few blocks and watch the prostitution, if I so chose. So, I do NOT believe this for one second that legalization of the illegal is the answer! I don’t think that because we believe we can’t beat them that we should join them.

Further, the city I live in also had the idea of trying to also do away with graffiti, using this very same strategy, legalizing it in designated areas. Okay…so we have all this UGLY graffiti in zones regulated by the government…saying…graffitize here!

Okay…those ugly areas are plastered with graffiti as is most everything else! Again, this policy did NOTHING. In fact, again, I think it made matters much worse! Legalizing graffiti. Legalizing prostitution…legalizing drugs…I predict this will be a dismal failure, and once it’s done, it will be very difficult to reverse and undo once that Pandora’s box has been opened. It will establish a precedent.

I think the legalization of drugs will be harder, one, because before, dogs could just sniff and catch people. Now, they will have to sniff, and you’ll have to weigh and all. It’ll just be a harder process. Also, people will often think because it’s legal that it’s okay and good, want to do it. So MORE people will get involved.

The best way to reduce drugs, and its related violence, is to decrease it at the source…that people stop buying it. About anything else won’t really work.
Click to expand...
I was thinking that if it were legalized all over, or sufficiently in the US, that the violence abroad (Mexico, Paraguay, etc) would be reduced. It seems that with prostitution, they tried tonrestrict it to certain areas, and that didn’t work, but if you can buy marijuans or cocaine at the local shop, and the whole series of transactions were done through regulated companies, then it does seem like we could greatly reduce the violence.

I’m not sure that more people would be involved. Right mow, some of the allure for teens who try it but give it up is the sort of “bad boy” rebellion thing. Like cigarettes, I think only some people are really interested in drugs.

But you made a lot of good points, esp pointing out that the root of the problem is the end buyer. And that’s the person with the least legal trouble if they are caught.
 
George_Stegmeir said:
The argument that Marijuana doesn’t addict or hurt anyone is absolute nonsense! My oldest son shot and killed himself while under its influence. No one knows if it was intentional or accidential. He was fooling with a loaded Derringer while he was stoned and the gun went off, the bullet entering his eye.
Being an ex-marine, he would not have recklessly fooled with a firearm had he not been stoned.
Click to expand...
I am so sorry to hear this–every parent’s worst nightmare. My condolences. :gopray2:
Apart from my personal experience with it, just look at the statistics of automobile accidents in which the driver was stoned or partly stoned. The number is almost that of accidents involving alcohol.
The difference between Marijuana and alcohol is that one can imbibe alcohol to enjoy its flavor without getting high or drunk. There is no way that one can ingest (smoke) marijuana and not get stoned. Therefore, not legalizing it is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...
This is a very good point. I hadn’t thought about people’s drinking just for the taste :o
 
edwest2 said:
I think it’s more like saying the war on stealing cars and other valuables has failed. Abusing drugs is what it says. Do we really need to have alcohol abusers and drug abusers? What is the percentage of people who use alcohol in moderation compared to those who don’t? There are negative effects to using illegal drugs. There is plenty of information about it.

We could regulate it how? Open Bob’s Dope House and buy a little bit of this and a little of that? People imagine that tax revenues would be generated, but that’s not likely. People are using abandoned houses in the US, stealing electricity and using every square foot to grow marijuana. Why risk crossing the border with the stuff when you can grow your own?

wlox.com/story/19847695/major-marijuana-bust-at-two-grow-houses-in-harrison-county

And what about loss of revenue and possible rehab costs for those who are adversely affected? And if they can’t pay, who does?

The moral thing to do is discourage the people you know from trying illegal drugs in the first place. I also wouldn’t tell anyone to start your own meth lab to make a little cash.

Peace,
Ed
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You bring up the fact that people turn to smuggling cigarettes and alcohol when the taxes are too high (I guess there’s a Laffer Curve for “luxury” taxes as well), and it seems that if drugs were legalized, people would buy them because they would cost less than illegal drugs. A small tax could finance rehabs (the costs of which might go way down if they were covered by a tax rather than by insurance). I think drugs could be regulated like cigarettes and alcohol. Right now, people take all tyese risks to grow it or make it because there’s so much profit involved. If that profit were reduced, people probably would stop doing all that to grow it. Kind of like most people buy cigarettes rather than growing and processing their own tobacco. If cigarettes were made illegal, there would be people growing tobabcco under those same circumstances as they currently grow marijuana.
 
St_Francis said:
You bring up the fact that people turn to smuggling cigarettes and alcohol when the taxes are too high (I guess there’s a Laffer Curve for “luxury” taxes as well), and it seems that if drugs were legalized, people would buy them because they would cost less than illegal drugs. A small tax could finance rehabs (the costs of which might go way down if they were covered by a tax rather than by insurance). I think drugs could be regulated like cigarettes and alcohol. Right now, people take all tyese risks to grow it or make it because there’s so much profit involved. If that profit were reduced, people probably would stop doing all that to grow it. Kind of like most people buy cigarettes rather than growing and processing their own tobacco. If cigarettes were made illegal, there would be people growing tobabcco under those same circumstances as they currently grow marijuana.
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What is your point? The topic is violence. Tobacco processing and growing is a bit more complicated than marijuana.

I wouldn’t encourage anyone to smoke, it’s bad for their health.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131125121904.htm

The moral thing to do is discourage illegal drug use and tobacco use.

Peace,
Ed
 
A friend of a friend of my third cousin from New Jersey who informs me on these matters says that:
  1. It’s entirely possible to take a couple of “tokes” of “Mary Jane” without becoming debilitated in the same way that it’s possible to drink a couple of beers without becoming drunk and
  2. Smoking “Mary Jane” doesn’t inexorably lead to the use of harder drugs any more than drinking alcohol inexorably leads to the use of “Mary Jane”.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
A friend of a friend of my third cousin from New Jersey who informs me on these matters says that:
  1. It’s entirely possible to take a couple of “tokes” of “Mary Jane” without becoming debilitated in the same way that it’s possible to drink a couple of beers without becoming drunk and
  2. Smoking “Mary Jane” doesn’t inexorably lead to the use of harder drugs any more than drinking alcohol inexorably leads to the use of “Mary Jane”.
Click to expand...
Got any scholarly sources to back all of these claims up?
 
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