Reduction of violence connected to the production and distribution of drugs

[Catolico65]

It should be quite obvious that anyone who smokes weed and wants it legalized would say it doesn’t lead to other drugs because it’s in his best interest to lie.

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

Do we really need to have alcohol abusers and drug abusers?

…]

Alcohol is a drug too. People who abuse alcohol are drug abusers. It’s only by pretending otherwise that our current hypocritical laws make any sense.

 

[Catolico65]

Alcohol is a drug too. People who abuse alcohol are drug abusers. It’s only by pretending otherwise that our current hypocritical laws make any sense.

You are confused. Nobody is saying abusing alcohol is good. This is still no reason to legalize marijuana which only leads to harder drugs.

 

[edwest2]

The Drug Enforcement Agency has good reason to keep marijuana out of our society.

justice.gov/dea/pr/multimedia-library/publications/drug_of_abuse.pdf#page=68

Peace,
Ed

 

[cornbread_r2]

You are confused. Nobody is saying abusing alcohol is good.

No, I’m not confused. I commented on the fallacy that the abuse of alcohol was not also drug abuse.

This is still no reason to legalize marijuana which only leads to harder drugs.

I’d be interested in seeing any scientific studies that support that contention if you have any.

 

[St_Francis]

Actually, I would not advocate legalizing drugs for any reason–I was just wondering if it would be worth it to reduce the violence that is going on around the world, which would have to be done in concert with other nations, obviously, to have the intended effect. I don’t do drugs, myself; I was just wondering about the idea.

I appreciate the many varied reasons everyone put forth against legalization.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas

 

[freeRadical]

I think the real question to ask is:

Is it the government’s job to protect a man from himself?

And if you believe it is then the next question to ask is:

Is it morally right to place burdens on other people to protect a man from himself?

 

[po18guy]

Legalizing alcohol certainly didn’t cause any problems, did it?

All of you drug legalizers take note: Drugs cost money now. Drugs will still cost money when legalized. Until and unless you are going to provide the drugs for free, there will still be assaults robberies and murders to get those drugs.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

You are confused. Nobody is saying abusing alcohol is good. This is still no reason to legalize marijuana which **only **leads to harder drugs.

So you believe that everyone who has ever tried marijuana became addicted to harder drugs? Or you believe that everyone who has ever smoked marijuana for any period of time became addicted to harder drugs? You might want to reword your original statement; blanket statements like yours don’t have much credibility.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Actually, I would not advocate legalizing drugs for any reason–I was just wondering if it would be worth it to reduce the violence that is going on around the world, which would have to be done in concert with other nations, obviously, to have the intended effect. I don’t do drugs, myself; I was just wondering about the idea.

I appreciate the many varied reasons everyone put forth against legalization.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas

There are severe costs being paid in association with the War on Drugs: violence, corruption, gangs, environmental damage, court systems, extra prison space, contractor and government resources, police militarization to combat the gangs, etc.

Those against legalization must believe that these severe costs are an acceptable price to pay; that they care more about keeping it illegal than they do about the victims of the gangs and violence that result from that illegality. This is the debate we’re mostly not having.

 

[po18guy]

There are severe costs being paid in association with the War on Drugs: violence, corruption, gangs, environmental damage, court systems, extra prison space, contractor and government resources, police militarization to combat the gangs, etc.

Those against legalization must believe that these severe costs are an acceptable price to pay; that they care more about keeping it illegal than they do about the victims of the gangs and violence that result from that illegality. This is the debate we’re mostly not having.

I believe that legalization will increase all of this. All of it. Unless you also legalize robbery, assault and murder along with it, drug use will always be associated with crime - it always has been. It is not a rational state of being and by its nature, produces irrational acts.

Society cannot continue simply by decriminalizing irrational behavior. The price is paid by society either way.

As well, in my experience, incarceration saves lives. It leads to clean and sober time. It allows for repentance and conversions. What price do you put on that?

 

[Brendan_64]

This is a common topic among Americans nowadays. At first glance it would appear the correct action to take would to legalize drugs and in fact there is a big push for this even among some Christians.

Why do you say “even among some Christians”? This issue has nothing to do with Christian doctrine. The Church does not have a position on this matter. It is not a religious issue and as we already have legal alcohol, so unless you are also calling for the criminalisation of alcohol and tobacco, legalisation of drugs is not a moral issue.

Criminalisation of alcohol in the USA resulted in huge levels of violence as alcohol production was. When alcohol was legalised again, this violence stopped. The supply of illegal drugs fuels criminality, gang violence and murder. Take the supply out of the hands of the criminal gangs and you cut off this huge income stream to criminal gangs and reduce their power. You can also properly regulate the purity of the drugs reducing the number of addicts who die as a result of impure batches.

Making drugs illegal does not eradicate their usage, and the related problems of criminal supply is arguably a much greater problem for society than the drug usage itself. We already have legal drugs (tobacco, alcohol) but even ignoring these if you look at another drug that is legal in the UK, khat.

Khat can be freely bought in London, and because it has to be fresh, is flown into London every night from Kenya. It is traded in the same way as any other agricultural products, but if it were to be made illegal, it would not only would it still be sold, but would be sold at highly inflated prices, and its sale and production would be controlled by criminal gangs.

It is a myth that making a substance illegal reduces its sale and usage. All that happens is that criminal gangs step in to take over to control the supply of the drug.

If people are going to take drugs, then it is better (for drug-users and non-drug-users alike) that the production and supply of these drugs is properly regulated and controlled.

 

[freeRadical]

I believe that legalization will increase all of this. All of it. Unless you also legalize robbery, assault and murder along with it, drug use will always be associated with crime - it always has been. It is not a rational state of being and by its nature, produces irrational acts.

Society cannot continue simply by decriminalizing irrational behavior. The price is paid by society either way.

As well, in my experience, incarceration saves lives. It leads to clean and sober time. It allows for repentance and conversions. What price do you put on that?

The difference between robbery and drugs is that when I rob someone I infringe on their private property rights. When I take drugs who do I hurt besides myself? Is it the government’s job to protect me from myself? Is it society’s job? If so, is it morally right to impose costs on other people to protect me from myself?

Do you think we should criminalize alcohol and tobacco?

Most people in jail for drugs are there for minor possession. Do you think that’s right? Do you think families should be broken up because of that? Do you think people’s whole lives should be ruined because they chose to take drugs?

You say drug use will always be associated with crime. What about alcohol? Why was crime involving alcohol worse under prohibition then it was after prohibition was repealed?

 

[St_Francis]

OTOH, used to be that something like 2/3s of the US population smoked cigarettes. Now only about 1/5 do. Why? Because smoking became *socially *unacceptable.

So we had a huge reduction in smoking not by making it illegal but by making it uncool.

Has making drugs illegal reduced drug use at all? Was there a higher or lower percentage of drug use/abuse before it was prohibited?

 

[Brendan_64]

So we had a huge reduction in smoking not by making it illegal but by making it uncool.

That, as well as the greater education amongst the public of the real and serious danger to one’s health from smoking. If you want to eradicate an extremely addictive drug that is directly responsible for killing many millions of people worldwide each year then tobacco is the drug that there needs to be a ‘war’ upon, not heroin or crack cocaine. Half of all cigarette smokers will die because of using the drug. Tobacco is responsible for 1 in 5 deaths in the USA.

Now would it be beneficial to make tobacco illegal and effectively pass the production, supply and control of the drug to criminal gangs? Would that represent a positive step? Of course not. So why is it a different case when it comes to other drugs?

Do we often hear of tobacco addicts robbing to feed their addiction? No. Tobacco is regulated and priced at a point where, although expensive, is not so expensive that it leads to this. If it was made illegal what do you think would happen to the price of this highly addictive and lethal drug?

 

[Catolico65]

Why do you say “even among some Christians”? This issue has nothing to do with Christian doctrine. The Church does not have a position on this matter. It is not a religious issue and as we already have legal alcohol, so unless you are also calling for the criminalisation of alcohol and tobacco, legalisation of drugs is not a moral issue.

It is of course a moral issue, in spite of yours and others claims.

It is no wonder we have so many faithful confused about right and wrong when we have some Christians who would pretend to disassociate morality with secular laws with the sole purpose of destigmatizing wrong. This is in fact what has happened with the legalization of child sacrifice.

 

[Brendan_64]

It is of course a moral issue, in spite of yours and others claims.

It is no wonder we have so many faithful confused about right and wrong when we have some Christians who would pretend to disassociate morality with laws with the sole purpose of destigmatizing wrong.

So are you now arguing that illegal drugs are morally wrong because of the fact that they are illegal, unlike legal drugs which are legal?

Alcohol and tobacco are no different from illegal drugs, other than the fact that they are legal.

Tobacco will kill half of all tobacco users and is responsible for 1 in 5 deaths in the USA (and 6 million per annum worldwide) but hey, it’s not immoral because it is legal.

Your’s is a completely circular argument.

This is in fact what has happened with the legalization of child sacrifice.

This has got nothing whatsoever to do with the legality or illegality of drugs, nothing whatsoever. The legality or illegality of drugs is not a matter of morality as far as the Church is concerned. The Church does not take a position on this. The legality of drugs is not a matter for Church doctrine, unlike abortion which clearly is.

Support for, or opposition to, the legalisation of drugs is not a matter of Christian morality. The Church does not have a position on this.

The legality, or illegality of drugs, it is a matter of managing a problem that we have, in a way that will limit the damage that these drugs do, both to individual users and society (just as we manage alcohol and tobacco to try to limit the damage that they do).

 

[Catolico65]

So are you now arguing that illegal drugs are morally wrong because of the fact that they are illegal, unlike legal drugs which are legal?

Alcohol and tobacco are no different from illegal drugs, other than the fact that they are legal.

Tobacco will kill half of all tobacco users and is responsible for 1 in 5 deaths in the USA (and 6 million per annum worldwide) but hey, it’s not immoral because it is legal.

Your’s is a completely circular argument.

You are confused, I have not stated that excessive alcohol nor tobacco use use is good. Furthermore, the damaging effect of existing legal drugs does not validate your claim for legalizing marijuana. The Catholic Church does not support it’s use or legalization either, which should be important to a Catholic.

This has got nothing whatsoever to do with the legality or illegality of drugs, nothing whatsoever. The legality or illegality of drugs is not a matter of morality as far as the Church is concerned. The Church does not take a position on this. The legality of drugs is not a matter for Church doctrine, unlike abortion which clearly is.

Support for, or opposition to, the legalisation of drugs is not a matter of Christian morality. The Church does not have a position on this.

The legality, or illegality of drugs, it is a matter of managing a problem that we have, in a way that will limit the damage that these drugs do, both to individual users and society (just as we manage alcohol and tobacco to try to limit the damage that they do).

This is the same argument used by many pseudo Christians to garner support for legalizing child sacrifice and homosexual indoctrination of our children. I am not impressed by legalism, repetition nor consensus of the majority. Jesus Christ and His Most Blessed Virgin Mary impress me.

 

[Brendan_64]

You are confused, I have not stated that excessive alcohol nor tobacco use use is good. Furthermore, the damaging effect of existing legal drugs does not validate your claim for legalizing marijuana. The Catholic Church does not support it’s use or legalization either, which should be important to a Catholic.

Nor does it support the use or legality of tobacco. The Church does not maintain that ceritain drugs ought to be made (or kept) illegal.

You are confused, I have never said that drug consumption of any sort (legal or otherwise)n is a good thing.

This is the same argument used by many pseudo Christians to garner support for legalizing child sacrifice and homosexual indoctrination of our children. I am not impressed by legalism, repetition nor consensus of the majority. Jesus Christ and His Most Blessed Virgin Mary impress me.

The difference, as you well know, is that homosexual acts and abortion are directly contrary to the teachings of the Church and are completely forbidden. The moderate consumption of drugs (legal or otherwise) is not against the teachings of the Church.

The Church does not have a position on the legal status of drugs. People who try to make this an issue of Christian morality are, in my opinion, either being disingenuous or are ignorant of the facts.

The legalisation, or not, of drugs is not an issue about the morality (or not) of drug consumption, it is about the management of a problem that currently exists. The problem doesn’t simply disappear if the drug is illegal (quite obviously so). The legal status of a drug is a tool of managing the problem, not a moral position regarding consumption of the drug.

 

[Catolico65]

The Church does not maintain that ceritain drugs ought to be made (or kept) illegal.

Yes it does.

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

You are confused, I have never said that drug consumption of any sort (legal or otherwise)n is a good thing.

You are confused. Legalizing drugs encourages it’s consumption. FACT.

The Church does not have a position on the legal status of drugs. People who try to make this an issue of Christian morality are, in my opinion, either being disingenuous or are ignorant of the facts.

I see you use legalism as an attempt to legalize drugs which are contrary to the moral law. You are ignorant of Catholic doctrine.

The legalisation, or not, of drugs is not an issue about the morality (or not) of drug consumption, it is about the management of a problem that currently exists. The problem doesn’t simply disappear if the drug is illegal (quite obviously so). The legal status of a drug is a tool of managing the problem, not a moral position regarding consumption of the drug.

As someone who is supposedly a logical person and educated it is incredulous that you would pretend to ignore history regarding this matter. I recommend you do more research before espousing the legalization of currently illegal drugs.