Reeeally embarassing question on marital relations

[fpt]

As catholic , we are in rights to get full information of state of marriage during the period before the wedding day , and more for the young people (18-25). What is the moral responsability of priests and of catholic parents? That is pitty, that is grave, and very scary.

Here, it seems to have an example where a priest and couples of pre-cana preparation have not made their job and have not taken their responsabilities.

 

[Godfollower]

the “vows” say nothign about, “will you become an object for your husband to use? Will you let yoru body become his property and do you realize it can be a mortal sin to say no” They don’t say that. NO ONE said that to me! ALl I was taught was, Hey! Sex is a pretty cool thing! Just don’t have it before marriage!

You people seem to have misunderstood everythign I said. I’m not an idiot. I know sex is a part of marriage. I expected to like it for the good it supposedly is. Forgive me for assuming I was allowed the basic human dignity to say, no, honey, I dont want to right now! Did you guys seriously get taught that in pre-cana? You act like it’s common knowledge, but that was never brought up! Not once! ALl we ever got in the way of sex ed was Yeah, God made sex, it’s good, share it with your spouse, etc etc. No one told me how much I’d hate it and how sick it would make me to even think about it. And NO ONE EVER TOLD ME NOT HAVING SEX WAS A SIN

No, seriously. What vows did YOU get read? There was NOTHING in MY vows about being required to have sex even if you didn’t want it. Nothing I was ever taught, PERIOD, gave any indication that sex was required under pain of sin. I was taught that it was a good and unitive thing, but was never taught there were rules about when you were allowed to say no, or that you had to have it if you found out you didn’t like it. It was good. If you liked it, go for it. If not, oh well.

HOW ARE THESE THINGS IN THE VOWS? I do not GET it! What the HELL kind of vows did you guys SAY? We were dispensed to maryr in his church, and we vowed to love each other, be open to life, respect one another and form a lifelong commintment. Yeah. I don’t see where in these vows it says “If you tell your husband no, you’re going to hell.”

And oh, that’s nice. “it’s still your fault even if no one ever taught you that/” How the hell was I suppose to know? Nothing I’d ever read even gave me ANY indication that the church had a teaching about this? what else do you EXPECT me to say? What blame here is mine, aside from the stupidity I’d already admitted to? it’s TRUE. NO ONE ever told me such rules existed, and I had no idea. So now I’M the bad guy for not agreeing with someone I had no idea about to begin with?

Victorious Song,

You are being misled. This is an anonymous internet forum. Please do NOT believe the argument that you are sinning because you cannot bring yourself to engage in marital relations.

Yes, there are sinful reasons to withhold sex. But that does not necessarily mean that all withholding of sex is sinful. And some of the arguments you’re being given (e.g., the ridiculous argument that menstruation is not a valid reason to abstain) are, plain and simply, wrong.

Catholic theology recognizes the ability of each spouse to withhold sex from the other. There are legitimate reasons for withholding sex from your spouse, and some of them permit a permanent withholding of sex.

So, PLEASE, take what you’re reading here with a grain of salt. Continue your therapy, and find a good and reliable priest to give you spiritual counseling. Please do NOT take the Church to be as bad as you’re being told here.

I’m still praying for you, and I hope you find peace.

 

[kbf1970060]

You have no obligation to sin.

 

[fpt]

Victorious Song,

You are being misled. This is an anonymous internet forum. Please do NOT believe the argument that you are sinning because you cannot bring yourself to engage in marital relations.

Yes, there are sinful reasons to withhold sex. But that does not necessarily mean that all withholding of sex is sinful. And some of the arguments you’re being given (e.g., the ridiculous argument that menstruation is not a valid reason to abstain) are, plain and simply, wrong.

Catholic theology recognizes the ability of each spouse to withhold sex from the other. There are legitimate reasons for withholding sex from your spouse, and some of them permit a permanent withholding of sex.

So, PLEASE, take what you’re reading here with a grain of salt. Continue your therapy, and find a good and reliable priest to give you spiritual counseling. Please do NOT take the Church to be as bad as you’re being told here.

I’m still praying for you, and I hope you find peace.

I am so sorry if my post on marital act during wife period (menstruation) was not quite clear and thus was misunderstood. This is my reasoning in link with the traditional teaching of roman catholic church (objective and realistic philosophy, the metaphysics, the epistemology for understanding the natural moral law).

The physiological cycle of woman is a natural element of the female nature. That is a part of the womanhood wanted by God. The wife period is one of elements of this female cycle, therefore periods are in link with the nature of the female: it is a natural law of sexed state of women, it is like that. In using our reason, we have to be agreed with this objective situation and stated that, per se (in itself, by itself, from itself, for itself) these menstruations are not dirty, impure. As catholic, we cannot have a intellectual approach like in the Old testament (laws on the physiological impurity of wife). The rules on this topic are from the Old testament, the New Testament with the teaching from the Roman Catholic Church: in catholicism , the fact of practicing the marital act during woman periods is not immoral, wrong and sinful (not dirty, not impure).

Because of the effects from original sin of the first couple (Adam and Eve), menstruations can be painful or more, or considered so-called dirty (intellectual view, fears, cultural misunderstanding, religious misunderstandings…etc).** Consequently, as catholic (wife and husband) we have to avoid negative points of view concerning the natural cycle of woman: husband has to receive the feminity of this wife, and wife has to accept her womanhood.**

In conclusion, the refusal of marital act, during menstruations, is morally okay:
When the wife is objectively tired by the bad effects (pains, injuries, diseases…etc)of menstruation because of the original sin (the bad effecfs are accidents and are not the rules); When wife or husband is scared to have sex during this time because of the original sin (the cultural, social, religious mentalities that are wrong).

What I want to mean,** it is that the reason of refusal, that can be invoked, is not in link with the essence of periods of wife, but, only, in link with the bad effects coming from the possible consequences of the original sin (the corollaries of original sin).**

 

[fpt]

In catholicism, the menstrual taboos should not existed, because the catholic doctrine of the natural law is clear; even if many catholic are ignorant, do not know, are very afraid and have a wrong intellectual view on female periods.

As catholic, our duty is to avoid the obscurantism and the wrong mentalities.

 

[maltmom]

I’m so sorry that your marriage isn’t what you thought it would be. If you didn’t have much sexual desire prior to your marriage it may be that you are someone who is wired that way. If you are, that’s alright. You are who you are. It’s great that you are in therapy. If you wish to seek a divorce that may be the best thing for both of you. Only you can figure that out.

I will pray for you.

 

[fpt]

In catholicism, the menstrual taboos should not exist, because the catholic doctrine of the natural law is clear; even if many catholic are ignorant, do not know, are very afraid and have a wrong intellectual view on female periods.

As catholic, our duty is to avoid the obscurantism and the wrong mentalities.

A thread on this topic.

Did Eve menstruate before The Fall?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=707745&highlight=menstruation

 

[fpt]

Only for information. Not to take that, like a total dogmatic view. I know, it is from SSPX, but that is very interesting. Many critics from posters are waiting!!!

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fFASHr9pxZEJ:www.sspx.org/catholic_faqs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm+the+responsibility+of+innocent+spouse+during+the+marital+act+according+to+FSSPX&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr

Is it a mortal sin to refuse one’s husband or wife the marital debt?

Conjugal relations are rightly called the “marriage debt”, which each spouse owes the other in justice the relations that are apt to engender children. It is this very particular right over one’s body that is given up to one’s spouse by marriage vows. Saint Paul is very explicit about this:

**Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (I Cor. 7:3 & 4) **

A debt in justice obliges under pain when a serious matter or quantity is owed. However, marriage relationships are a serious matter and of great importance. **Furthermore, the refusal of the marriage debt may cause a danger of incontinence. **Consequently, it is a mortal sin to deprive one’s spouse of these relationships. The typical example of this is when a wife feels that she is justified in withholding the marriage debt because her feelings are hurt, or she is not appreciated enough. However, there is no excuse for the husband to withhold the affection and care for his wife’s feelings, for is responsible for them as head of the family.

However, it is possible for the couple to agree, by mutual consent, to abstain for a short period of time, for example for penance, during Lent. However, it must be by mutual consent, and on the understanding that either spouse can withdraw it at any time. Saint Paul speaks of this also:

**Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer (I Cor 7:5).

**
There can, however, be good reasons that excuse a husband or wife from rendering this marriage debt, such as adultery of the other spouse, or unreasonable demands (e.g. frequency, intoxication) or grave danger to health or life (e.g. by the possible communication of infectious diseases), or a husband who refuses to perform his duty of supporting his family (Jone, Moral Theology, pp. 557 & 558). There can also be special circumstances that reduce the culpability of refusing the marriage debt, so that it is only a venial sin, for example “if the petitioner will readily renounce his right, or if rendering it is only briefly postponed, or when the use of the marriage right is frequent and its refusal is only rare” (ibid). [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

 

[fpt]

Frequently Asked Questions
regarding the
44 SINS AGAINST
THE SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE
(Copyright: Catholic Doors Ministry)

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu164.htm

Refusing the marriage duty. In 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, we read, “The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

The duty of a married couple is to participate in intercourse with one another whenever it is reasonably asked for. To refuse one’s spouse a reasonable request to participate in the act of sexual intercourse is to commit a mortal sin. Both spouses of the marriage have a right to intercourse. Such a right was received on the wedding day.

When a spouse is denied intercourse on an ongoing basis, such can give rise to other sins or severe temptations. Examples of such sins are adultery, masturbation, separation, divorce, anger and/or drunkenness. There are occasions when a spouse can refuse the marriage duty. Examples are when the person asking for intercourse is drunk, in the case of illness, when there is danger to an unborn child or similar valid reasons.

Both partners in a marriage should be considerate of the other one’s sexual needs. It is inappropriate for one spouse to always have to insist on his marital rights.

When one partner denies the other the right to intercourse, that person is no longer open to the procreation of children, such action being contrary to a sacramental marriage as instituted by God.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

I’m so sorry that your marriage isn’t what you thought it would be. If you didn’t have much sexual desire prior to your marriage it may be that you are someone who is wired that way. If you are, that’s alright. You are who you are. It’s great that you are in therapy. If you wish to seek a divorce that may be the best thing for both of you. Only you can figure that out.

I will pray for you.

I hope you realize that divorce is not supported by Catholicism. Genuine annullments are, but that is not divorce.

 

[maltmom]

I hope you realize that divorce is not supported by Catholicism. Genuine annullments are, but that is not divorce.

Yes I do, but the tribunal won’t look at the marriage and consider declaring a decree of nullity until after a civil divorce is granted.

 

[1inICXC]

I have to say that I find this whole thread really, really sad. I am not saying that in a mean way, OP, but out of a genuine sadness that you feel this way.

The way you are speaking about the holy (yes, holy) act of sex sounds very juvenile. The way a young preteen who just learned what sex is might say - “I have to do WHAT to make babies???”

Sex is the opportunity to physically express love and renew your marriage vows with your husband. With your off color language you are basically saying - how dare the church say it is important for me to tell my husband I love him! Honestly, I would ammend the way you are speaking about the marital act. You sound very young and immature.

Ignore the post about the ‘reasons’ one can say no to sex…

Sex is not dirty and it certainly is not disgusting. It is the union of two married people in the most complete way possible. It is the most intimate you can be with another person. You literally become one flesh, and may even create another human life.

Some women are more emotional than others (I am a woman, I know). Some women may have drives that allow them to get ‘in the mood’ at just the suggestion from the husband. Others need a bit more ‘courting’. These women may have extreme difficulty if they are not feeling emotionally connected to their husbands. It sounds to me as though you are one of the latter. You have alluded to extremely serious problems in your marriage of religion, money, communication, connection, ideas, and values. If you are feeling so completely disconnected from your husband, well it IS normal NOT to want to have sex with a basic STRANGER.

To your notion that you do not want it fixed? That is wrong. I am sorry, it is. You have a duty before God (as per your vows) to make it work with your husband. If he will not go to counseling see if he will speak with a religious advisor or at least a leader you both respect such as a family member. You have started counseling, that is excellent. See if he/she can recommend books you can read with your husband. Have a VERY open conversation with your husband. Dont talk so much about the sex but about how incredibly disconnected you feel from him. You two need to start courting again and realize what drew you to each other. If you can start feeling in love the sex, or at least the desire for sex should naturally follow. If it does not, then address that after you are on the same page emotionally.

If your husband refuses to admit there is a problem and refuses to take any steps to amend the problem, a seperation MAY be in order. This should be done under the direction of a good priest and therapist and be done with the intention of starting the marriage over. Only if all of this does not work should you even be speaking about annulment.

It is a long and rough road ahead. You may have made the decision to get married rashly, but you are an adult. You have made an adult decision with adult consequences. It is time to grow up and work on the problems before you.

Wow, so much wisdom in this one post that I don’t have anything to add! Please read it, and read it carefully!

the “vows” say nothign about,** “will you become an object for your husband to use? **Will you let yoru body become his property and do you realize it can be a mortal sin to say no” They don’t say that. NO ONE said that to me! ALl I was taught was, Hey! Sex is a pretty cool thing! Just don’t have it before marriage!

**You people seem to have misunderstood everythign I said. **I’m not an idiot. I know sex is a part of marriage. I expected to like it for the good it supposedly is. Forgive me for assuming I was allowed the basic human dignity to say, no, honey, I dont want to right now! Did you guys seriously get taught that in pre-cana? You act like it’s common knowledge, but that was never brought up! Not once! ALl we ever got in the way of sex ed was Yeah, God made sex, it’s good, share it with your spouse, etc etc. No one told me how much I’d hate it and how sick it would make me to even think about it. And NO ONE EVER TOLD ME NOT HAVING SEX WAS A SIN

In fact, it is YOU who is misunderstanding what these posters are telling you…maybe it’s a case of being blinded by rage. Please stop insisting that the Church would EVER require anyone to become an object for another. As a matter of fact, did ou know BJPII said that the opposite of love is not hate but USING? To objectify a person is to deny them their dignity of a human person and no matter the circumstance, a person should never be reduced to being the object of our lust!! Now that is awesome teaching that you will not hear anywhere!

The Church also states that abstinence, is at times, the loving thing to do!
So please, if you want to cast judgement on the Church Teachings, at least try to understand them first!

Your situation sure is a painful one but don’t let all your emotions of what is blind you from seeing things as they should be! And if your husband is oblivious, then he is more dense than any guy I’ve ever met, and perhaps THIS is in essense the root of the problem.!

 

[pablope]

Are people just not reading my posts? I AM seeing a therapist, damn it! And, I’m sorry, where did I say I want to fix this? I actually want to go move back home right now, and get away from his batshit insane religious rambleing, his non-stop video game playing, his drunken crack-head friends and entitlement complex that compels him to spend every cent I make.

Just my take on it…talk to your therapist…ask if a temporary separation for a few days or weeks may help your situation…obviously, you are seeing him as not the person you dreamed of marrying and is causing you resentment, and your revulsion of him touching you.

Giving each one in the marital is an act of love between each other…and if you are not, then, ask advise from your therapist how to approach and tell your husband about how you feel. I think you should be open to each other and tell what you actually feel…instead of keeping it closed. The more you keep it closed, the more pent up feelings arise and the more the resentment builds up.

 

[pablope]

And I reiterate; if someone had told me before that such a…a disgusting law existed, I’d have vowed to never even think of being married, period. to think that a woman could go to hell because she doesn’t allow her husband to violate her! That she doesn’t have a right to say no!

There is also mutual respect between the two of you. If you do not feel like it and are not in the mood, then he should also be considerate of your feelings.

 

[thewanderer]

I have to say that I am absolutely shocked by the lack of compassion and just plain prudence displayed by people on this thread.

The OP is clearly in a very bad place. She also very clearly misunderstands the Church teaching about the marital debt. Despite this almost nobody made an attempt to help explain what the Church actually teaches! Seriously people, what were you thinking??!!

OP, I sent you a pm to help set some things straightt, but just in case there is anyone else reading this thread with the same/similar questions I will clarify a few things.

1. You are never obligated to have sex if your spouse is just using you as an object. Period.
2. If you don’ want to have sex your spouse is never allowed to force you ( or manipulate you) into having sex. It doesn’t matter whether you are even being as horrible as to use sex as a way to manipulate them, they still** cannot **force or manipulate you into having sex.
3. If you have mental/emotional hangups about sex then it is absolutely legitimate to tell your spouse you can’t/won’t have sex with them right now. You have to do your best to try to resolve these hangups, but you are never required to have sex while such hangups make it impossible for sex to be unitive.

The language of ‘debt’ or ‘obligation’ often makes people balk, but the reality behind it is actually really beautiful. Basically, the Church recognizes that sexual relations are so much more than just a physical pleasure that people give to each other. It is a complete offering of self to the other, physically, emotionally, spiritually. If you promise to love someone completely and live for them and then they open themselves up in a vulnerable attempt to give themselves to you entirely, how can it possibly be a loving response to say, “Sorry honey, I don’t happen to feel physically aroused at present so I’m going to completely and utterly refuse your entire gift of self to me.” That is why the Chrch says you ‘owe’ it to your spouse. It’s because a refusal* without reason *is essentially a rejection of the person you have promised to love for better and for worse when they have opened themselves up at their most vulnerable. That is not ok, that is most definately a breaking, at least to some extent, of your vows to love each other unconditionally, until death do you part. So you see, it is not about women losing control over their bodies, or being forced to endure being treated as an object through being forced into disunitive sex, it is all about the fact that sex itself is so much more than a physical act of pleasure, and to reject your spouses request for sex is essentially to reject your spouses offer of unconditional love and complete gift of self without any reason is just **not **ok.

 

[bookishlady]

Victorious_song,

Because I’m generally a pretty opinionated person and have struggled in my life in rein in my blustering, pontificating and opinionated attitudes… I won’t offer my opinion here for you. Plenty of folks have already offered insight, and I can only assume they must be married and/or better Catholics than I am. What I will offer are my sincere sympathy that you’re in this situation, my prayers, and an offer of friendship for you.

I’m unmarried myself, for reasons I won’t get into here - but suffice it to say, I can understand the feelings you have of being overwhelmed, at the end of your rope… and I can also understand the lack of physical/emotional/etc attraction you feel for your spouse, given the scenarios and context you’ve described. I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you.

Again, you’ll be in my thoughts and prayers. My ‘door’ is always open, and I’m happy to listen, should you need or want an impartial, friendly ear.

 

[severus68]

I have to say that I am absolutely shocked by the lack of compassion and just plain prudence displayed by people on this thread.

The OP is clearly in a very bad place. She also very clearly misunderstands the Church teaching about the marital debt. Despite this almost nobody made an attempt to help explain what the Church actually teaches! Seriously people, what were you thinking??!!

OP, I sent you a pm to help set some things straightt, but just in case there is anyone else reading this thread with the same/similar questions I will clarify a few things.

1. You are never obligated to have sex if your spouse is just using you as an object. Period.
2. If you don’ want to have sex your spouse is never allowed to force you ( or manipulate you) into having sex. It doesn’t matter whether you are even being as horrible as to use sex as a way to manipulate them, they still** cannot **force or manipulate you into having sex.
3. If you have mental/emotional hangups about sex then it is absolutely legitimate to tell your spouse you can’t/won’t have sex with them right now. You have to do your best to try to resolve these hangups, but you are never required to have sex while such hangups make it impossible for sex to be unitive.

The language of ‘debt’ or ‘obligation’ often makes people balk, but the reality behind it is actually really beautiful. Basically, the Church recognizes that sexual relations are so much more than just a physical pleasure that people give to each other. It is a complete offering of self to the other, physically, emotionally, spiritually. If you promise to love someone completely and live for them and then they open themselves up in a vulnerable attempt to give themselves to you entirely, how can it possibly be a loving response to say, “Sorry honey, I don’t happen to feel physically aroused at present so I’m going to completely and utterly refuse your entire gift of self to me.” That is why the Chrch says you ‘owe’ it to your spouse. It’s because a refusal* without reason *is essentially a rejection of the person you have promised to love for better and for worse when they have opened themselves up at their most vulnerable. That is not ok, that is most definately a breaking, at least to some extent, of your vows to love each other unconditionally, until death do you part. So you see, it is not about women losing control over their bodies, or being forced to endure being treated as an object through being forced into disunitive sex, it is all about the fact that sex itself is so much more than a physical act of pleasure, and to reject your spouses request for sex is essentially to reject your spouses offer of unconditional love and complete gift of self without any reason is just **not **ok.

Great post. I just wish you placed your last para at the beginning.

Marriage is about love and in a good marriage, there would not be people coming on an anonymous forum to complain about not enough sex, too much sex etc. When there is an issue like the OP having a revulsion towards sex, the husband knowing she has problems and still continuing is, in my opinion, using her and her body as an object. The point that appears to have eluded those who have ‘hammered’ her her is that he is having sex with her. Saying not paying the marital debt is a mortal sin and you will go to hell is shocking to say the least.

 

[severus68]

Victorious_song,

Because I’m generally a pretty opinionated person and have struggled in my life in rein in my blustering, pontificating and opinionated attitudes… I won’t offer my opinion here for you. Plenty of folks have already offered insight, and I can only assume they must be married and/or better Catholics than I am. What I will offer are my sincere sympathy that you’re in this situation, my prayers, and an offer of friendship for you.

I’m unmarried myself, for reasons I won’t get into here - but suffice it to say, I can understand the feelings you have of being overwhelmed, at the end of your rope… and I can also understand the lack of physical/emotional/etc attraction you feel for your spouse, given the scenarios and context you’ve described. I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you.

Again, you’ll be in my thoughts and prayers. My ‘door’ is always open, and I’m happy to listen, should you need or want an impartial, friendly ear.