Reeeally embarassing question on marital relations

[fpt]

And I reiterate; if someone had told me before that such a…a disgusting law existed, I’d have vowed to never even think of being married, period. to think that a woman could go to hell because she doesn’t allow her husband to violate her! That she doesn’t have a right to say no!

1. talk to a catholic priest;
2. take an appointment with the officiality and with a catholic lawyer;
3. ask help to your catholic friends, you catholics families of your parish;
4. ask help to catholic doctors, to catholic nurses, to catholic ethicists, to catholic theologians.
5. Pray God, Jesus and Holy Mary for getting this declaration of nullity.

You need to get the declaration of nullity. Why??? For your protection, for the protection of marriage, for the protection of your “husband” who, may be, is not yours. And for your future life, sentimental life, affective life, conjugal life and sexual life with another man. You are young, you could begin again in few years a truly conjugal life with the good guy.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

And I reiterate; if someone had told me before that such a…a disgusting law existed, I’d have vowed to never even think of being married, period. to think that a woman could go to hell because she doesn’t allow her husband to violate her! That she doesn’t have a right to say no!

You have a gross misunderstanding of what the sacrament of marriage is,
and to be honest, I am disgusted that you make such disparaging remarks about something you obviously don’t understand.

Please get off the internet, pick up a phone and call your local parish.
Tell the person who aswers the phone that you need to speak to a priest about a personal pastoral issue.

 

[Godfollower]

She came here for help. Let’s please stop bashing her.

She’s going through an extremely difficult time of her life, and a bunch of people she asked for help seem to be ganging up on her and saying things that are hurtful to her. She doesn’t need to be told that she’s bad, or sinful, or has a gross misunderstanding, or what have you. Clearly the concept of the so-called “marital debt” took her by surprise, and it came across to her as something far worse than it actually is.

So lighten up on her.

Victorious_Song, somewhere along the line here a failure to communicate occurred, probably because internet postings lack tone and context, just like emails. Catholic teaching isn’t anywhere near as bad as you’ve been (I say accidentally) led to believe. Yes, husbands and wives are supposed to love each other, including physically; but also, yes, a wife can choose not to have sex.

But that isn’t really the issue for you, as far as I can tell. It’s good that you’re seeking therapy, even if he won’t; I encourage you to keep that up, and I also encourage you to seek counseling from a priest for the spiritual aspects of your problem. Remember, if you’re reluctant to go to your own priest for some reason, it’s okay to go to another parish to seek counseling from a priest who doesn’t know you or your family.

I’m not going to render an opinion about divorce or annulment or what have you, because we don’t know anywhere near enough to make useful suggestions. But seeking therapy and spiritual counseling should help you to find your way.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. And I’m sorry you encountered difficulty where you asked for help. I’m praying for you, and I hope everything works out for you.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’m Catholic, he’s not. I’m already seeing a therapist. He thinks it’s stupid and thinks mental health care is a load of liberal brainwashing.

Than he is very ill-informed. I suggest he visit a local VA clinic and ask the PTSD vets (not known for their love of liberal politics) their opinion on it being “liberal brainwashing.”

 

[fpt]

According to the catholic teaching, in the marriage, the marital act is a moral right for each spouse and a moral obligation for each spouse: therefore, the practice of marital act is the principle and the exception is not to practice the marital act. In catholic moral, there are only two systems for abstinence of marital act:

A. The bilateral agreement between spouses, the mutual and reciprocal will of each spouse not to practice conjugal sex:

1. During a temporary time for spiritual and religious reasons, in knowing that at each time (at each second) the agreement can be stopped by the will of only one or by both of them. The break of this temporary time without sex is not immoral and is not a bad event for the couple, it is not sinful.
2. During the time where there is a presumption of fertility of wife for serious reason(s) (grave, objective, real and fair) in order to avoid a baby (to delay and to postpone the arrival of another child) or for the spacing the pregnancies: the N.F.P with the different natural methods.

B. The unilateral will from one of member of couple:

1. If and only if there is a serious motive, (thus the refusal of the request of marital act from wife or from husband is morally okay);
2. For the wife during pregnancy if and only if there are realistic medical issues or if the wife is tired by the pregnancy. Per se, the pregnancy is not a reasonable reason, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
3. For wife, between 2 weeks and 6 weeks after childbirth.
4. For wife during the menstruations if and only if she is tired because per se, menstruations are not reasonable causes, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
5. If there is adultery, but after the forgiveness, the marital sex is the rule, the refusal is not morally licit.
6. If the request of marital act is too often in the short time (the moderation): but no number and no quantity, per se, can be given like example.
7. If one of member is drunk or has lost temporary the reason.

Each time, **the reasons have to be reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious. Why a reason, **because the marital act is the rule of the state of marriage. **Of course, the unilateral refusal of marital act can be immoral, sinful (venial or mortal) if there is no reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious reason for justifying the refusal. **The systematic rejection or refusal of request of marital act is wrong, is dangerous, and is probably sinful: it is against the state of marriage. Marriage means the fact of making one flesh (marital act between spouses). **A rejection without a very good reason is wrong and immoral. **

Of course, t**he marital rape is a concept that is recognized by the catholic moral and that this type of behavior is very wrong , immoral and awful (it is going against the conjugal love): very sinful, it is a crime. **Of course none has the moral right to force the other for having conjugal sex. But, each one has to make sacrifices and respects the vows of marriage.

 

[Godfollower]

According to the catholic teaching, in the marriage, the marital act is a moral right for each spouse and a moral obligation for each spouse: therefore, the practice of marital act is the principle and the exception is not to practice the marital act. In catholic moral, there are only two systems for abstinence of marital act:

A. The bilateral agreement between spouses, the mutual and reciprocal will of each spouse not to practice conjugal sex:

1. During a temporary time for spiritual and religious reasons, in knowing that at each time (at each second) the agreement can be stopped by the will of only one or by both of them. The break of this temporary time without sex is not immoral and is not a bad event for the couple, it is not sinful.
2. During the time where there is a presumption of fertility of wife for serious reason(s) (grave, objective, real and fair) in order to avoid a baby (to delay and to postpone the arrival of another child) or for the spacing the pregnancies: the N.F.P with the different natural methods.

B. The unilateral will from one of member of couple:

1. If and only if there is a serious motive, (thus the refusal of the request of marital act from wife or from husband is morally okay);
2. For the wife during pregnancy if and only if there are realistic medical issues or if the wife is tired by the pregnancy. Per se, the pregnancy is not a reasonable reason, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
3. For wife, between 2 weeks and 6 weeks after childbirth.
4. For wife during the menstruations if and only if she is tired because per se, menstruations are not reasonable causes, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
5. If there is adultery, but after the forgiveness, the marital sex is the rule, the refusal is not morally licit.
6. If the request of marital act is too often in the short time (the moderation): but no number and no quantity, per se, can be given like example.
7. If one of member is drunk or has lost temporary the reason.

Each time, **the reasons have to be reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious. Why a reason, **because the marital act is the rule of the state of marriage. **Of course, the unilateral refusal of marital act can be immoral, sinful (venial or mortal) if there is no reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious reason for justifying the refusal. **The systematic rejection or refusal of request of marital act is wrong, is dangerous, and is probably sinful: it is against the state of marriage. Marriage means the fact of making one flesh (marital act between spouses). **A rejection without a very good reason is wrong and immoral. **

Of course, t**he marital rape is a concept that is recognized by the catholic moral and that this type of behavior is very wrong , immoral and awful (it is going against the conjugal love): very sinful, it is a crime. **Of course none has the moral right to force the other for having conjugal sex. But, each one has to make sacrifices and respects the vows of marriage.

The above is (A) not helpful to this original poster; and (B) incorrect in several respects. Please don’t side-track the thread with unrelated agendas. She didn’t come here to ask whether annulments are morally appropriate or whether divorce is ever okay or whether sex is part of marriage; she asked how to deal with the fact that marital relations are emotionally impossible for her.

It is not helpful to pounce on her and proclaim that she’s a sinner. She wants to know how to deal with the situation she’s in, not why a bunch of anonymous strangers think she’s worse than Hitler.

Please address her issues, not the issues you wish she had raised.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

Nobody told me before marriage that my husband had a “right” to my body, and saying such makes me wants a divorce, NOW, because it’s literally THE most disgusting set of words I’ve heard in my life, Period.

Nobody has asked and I hope I’m not out of line nor do I want any specifics, but I noticed from your other post you mentioned you still do the things that “he makes you do.” What kind of sex is he making you do? Disrespectful acts?

 

[fpt]

The above is (A) not helpful to this original poster; and (B) incorrect in several respects. Please don’t side-track the thread with unrelated agendas. She didn’t come here to ask whether annulments are morally appropriate or whether divorce is ever okay or whether sex is part of marriage; she asked how to deal with the fact that marital relations are emotionally impossible for her.

It is not helpful to pounce on her and proclaim that she’s a sinner. She wants to know how to deal with the situation she’s in, not why a bunch of anonymous strangers think she’s worse than Hitler.

Please address her issues, not the issues you wish she had raised.

In my posts, I have never said that she was a sinful wife. I resumed the general doctrine of catholic Church, in theory without accusing her.

She needs to know the global teaching of the church on the marriage with the rights, the duties and the obligations in order to know what she wants for her future with this man, or with another if and only if she gets the declaration of nullity.

The final ends is her protection, the protection of marriage, the protection of her “husband” who, may be, is not her husband, and her future life (sentimental life, affective life, conjugal life and sexual life with another man). She is young, she could begin again, in few years, a truly conjugal life with the good guy.

Okay, the A point is irrelevant with the topic. But, where are my incorrect aspects in my B point? I am just curious!!!

 

[severus68]

She came here for help. Let’s please stop bashing her.

She’s going through an extremely difficult time of her life, and a bunch of people she asked for help seem to be ganging up on her and saying things that are hurtful to her. She doesn’t need to be told that she’s bad, or sinful, or has a gross misunderstanding, or what have you. Clearly the concept of the so-called “marital debt” took her by surprise, and it came across to her as something far worse than it actually is.

So lighten up on her.

Victorious_Song, somewhere along the line here a failure to communicate occurred, probably because internet postings lack tone and context, just like emails. Catholic teaching isn’t anywhere near as bad as you’ve been (I say accidentally) led to believe. Yes, husbands and wives are supposed to love each other, including physically; but also, yes, a wife can choose not to have sex.

But that isn’t really the issue for you, as far as I can tell. It’s good that you’re seeking therapy, even if he won’t; I encourage you to keep that up, and I also encourage you to seek counseling from a priest for the spiritual aspects of your problem. Remember, if you’re reluctant to go to your own priest for some reason, it’s okay to go to another parish to seek counseling from a priest who doesn’t know you or your family.

I’m not going to render an opinion about divorce or annulment or what have you, because we don’t know anywhere near enough to make useful suggestions. But seeking therapy and spiritual counseling should help you to find your way.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. And I’m sorry you encountered difficulty where you asked for help. I’m praying for you, and I hope everything works out for you.

Well and kindly said.

To the OP,

I think this poster has given you good advice in a charitable way.
Prayers for you.

 

[PaulinVA]

Victorious_song, I get the impression that there is nothing about your husband you like at all.

This isn’t about sex. You don’t even want to talk to your husband! You don’t want to share your day with him. It seems that you just want him to go away.

So, I completely understand your feelings about sex and the idea that you are giving your whole self, your body, to him. You don’t even like him!

I don’t know how you find yourself in this position, but, as others have said, you need to go to see a priest about a decree of nullity. Not because of where you find yourself now, but because of where you were at the time of the wedding.

 

[fpt]

I’m saying the catholic church is making the yoke heavier, in some cases. Annullment is an institutional not a godly precept.

" Annullment is an institutional not a godly precept ".

The declaration of nullity of marriage is a law coming from the natural moral law wanted by God. Therefore, it is a part of the divine law of the creation.

The canon law of marriage is for the most part of time a law from the nature of human being (natural law of human beings)

 

[Victorious_song]

According to the catholic teaching, in the marriage, the marital act is a moral right for each spouse and a moral obligation for each spouse: therefore, the practice of marital act is the principle and the exception is not to practice the marital act. In catholic moral, there are only two systems for abstinence of marital act:

A. The bilateral agreement between spouses, the mutual and reciprocal will of each spouse not to practice conjugal sex:

1. During a temporary time for spiritual and religious reasons, in knowing that at each time (at each second) the agreement can be stopped by the will of only one or by both of them. The break of this temporary time without sex is not immoral and is not a bad event for the couple, it is not sinful.
2. During the time where there is a presumption of fertility of wife for serious reason(s) (grave, objective, real and fair) in order to avoid a baby (to delay and to postpone the arrival of another child) or for the spacing the pregnancies: the N.F.P with the different natural methods.

B. The unilateral will from one of member of couple:

1. If and only if there is a serious motive, (thus the refusal of the request of marital act from wife or from husband is morally okay);
2. For the wife during pregnancy if and only if there are realistic medical issues or if the wife is tired by the pregnancy. Per se, the pregnancy is not a reasonable reason, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
3. For wife, between 2 weeks and 6 weeks after childbirth.
4. For wife during the menstruations if and only if she is tired because per se, menstruations are not reasonable causes, it is not enough, it is irrelevant.
5. If there is adultery, but after the forgiveness, the marital sex is the rule, the refusal is not morally licit.
6. If the request of marital act is too often in the short time (the moderation): but no number and no quantity, per se, can be given like example.
7. If one of member is drunk or has lost temporary the reason.

Each time, **the reasons have to be reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious. Why a reason, **because the marital act is the rule of the state of marriage. **Of course, the unilateral refusal of marital act can be immoral, sinful (venial or mortal) if there is no reasonable, real, objective, fair and serious reason for justifying the refusal. **The systematic rejection or refusal of request of marital act is wrong, is dangerous, and is probably sinful: it is against the state of marriage. Marriage means the fact of making one flesh (marital act between spouses). **A rejection without a very good reason is wrong and immoral. **

Of course, t**he marital rape is a concept that is recognized by the catholic moral and that this type of behavior is very wrong , immoral and awful (it is going against the conjugal love): very sinful, it is a crime. **Of course none has the moral right to force the other for having conjugal sex. But, each one has to make sacrifices and respects the vows of marriage.

…being on your period isn’t good enough reason? gross. Just…YUCK.

I’m appalled that this even exists. Here I always told people off for saying that the church is obsessed with sex, but…it seems they were right! And I’m not saying that to be vruel or start a fight; I am illegitimate FLABERGASTED by these rules!

I’m honestly and truly just…apalled…by this whole ordeal. I never knew the church taught these sorts of things. i definaely don’t want to be married anymore.

 

[Victorious_song]

She came here for help. Let’s please stop bashing her.

She’s going through an extremely difficult time of her life, and a bunch of people she asked for help seem to be ganging up on her and saying things that are hurtful to her. She doesn’t need to be told that she’s bad, or sinful, or has a gross misunderstanding, or what have you. Clearly the concept of the so-called “marital debt” took her by surprise, and it came across to her as something far worse than it actually is.

So lighten up on her.

Victorious_Song, somewhere along the line here a failure to communicate occurred, probably because internet postings lack tone and context, just like emails. Catholic teaching isn’t anywhere near as bad as you’ve been (I say accidentally) led to believe. Yes, husbands and wives are supposed to love each other, including physically; but also, yes, a wife can choose not to have sex.

But that isn’t really the issue for you, as far as I can tell. It’s good that you’re seeking therapy, even if he won’t; I encourage you to keep that up, and I also encourage you to seek counseling from a priest for the spiritual aspects of your problem. Remember, if you’re reluctant to go to your own priest for some reason, it’s okay to go to another parish to seek counseling from a priest who doesn’t know you or your family.

I’m not going to render an opinion about divorce or annulment or what have you, because we don’t know anywhere near enough to make useful suggestions. But seeking therapy and spiritual counseling should help you to find your way.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. And I’m sorry you encountered difficulty where you asked for help. I’m praying for you, and I hope everything works out for you.

Thank you

 

[ALLGIRLS]

The situation at the very least, I think, calls for a temporary separation, so you can continue in therapy and talk to a priest about your situation. I would also suggest reading up on Theology of the Body, John Paul II’s work. (Theology of the Body for Beginners is good and a pretty easy read), to get an understanding of the beautiful teaching on sexuality. If you truly believe that your husband is “violating” you, there’s a serious issue here! I read that and was highly offended, as it’s the farthest thing from what should be happening in love making. I also chuckled that you were grossed out at the thought of sex during your period. Dh and I do that, on the light days. It’s a little messier, but we don’t find it gross at all! Your husband’s hygiene and behavior are a whole other problem. If what you’ve said is true (the friends, spending money, drinking), he’s not respecting you at all. You’ll be in my prayers.

In Christ,
Ellen

 

[fpt]

…being on your period isn’t good enough reason? gross. Just…YUCK.

I’m appalled that this even exists. Here I always told people off for saying that the church is obsessed with sex, but…it seems they were right! And I’m not saying that to be vruel or start a fight; I am illegitimate FLABERGASTED by these rules!

I’m honestly and truly just…apalled…by this whole ordeal. I never knew the church taught these sorts of things. i definaely don’t want to be married anymore.

You were young at the moment of your wedding. Thus, you did not know the hard core of the catholic teaching on the marital act (rights, obligations and duties): to do, to give, to offer, to receive, not to do, not to give, not to offer, not to receive (anactive part and a passive part).

You need to talk to a priest about marriage, about your rights, about your obligations and also about your possibilities to get the declaration of nullity of your marriage.

Catholic Church is not obsessed with sex, it is the world that is not capable to understand the normal order of sex. The fact of making one flesh, what is it for you?

**
**Female period is a good reason for refusal, **but not in the meaning of physical impurity like in the old testament. **Say no for this reason (physiological impurity) is weird. The physiological system of female is, per se, wanted by God. it is not bad, not dirty.

 

[newlywed8]

I have to say that I find this whole thread really, really sad. I am not saying that in a mean way, OP, but out of a genuine sadness that you feel this way.

The way you are speaking about the holy (yes, holy) act of sex sounds very juvenile. The way a young preteen who just learned what sex is might say - “I have to do WHAT to make babies???”

Sex is the opportunity to physically express love and renew your marriage vows with your husband. With your off color language you are basically saying - how dare the church say it is important for me to tell my husband I love him! Honestly, I would ammend the way you are speaking about the marital act. You sound very young and immature.

Ignore the post about the ‘reasons’ one can say no to sex. Basically you can’t say no because you are trying to get back at your husband for something or because you just are being cold. You should make an effort to get in the mood at least occasionally and try not to refuse regularly, this can be very hurtful (visit the family life forum and read some of hurt some posters experience because their spouse refuses to ever have relations). You also shouldn’t purposely get your husband aroused just to say “yeah, no, not tonight”. He also should not do that to you. Periods and the rest of it should be handled through discussions with your spouse. Both of you should determine if it is a good reason to avoid, some couples do, others do not. Its a personal issue. If you are tired one night, you can say no. If you are not feeling well, you can say no. If you are fertile and trying to avoid, you can say no. (this is not an exhaustive list, just giving examples)

Sex is not dirty and it certainly is not disgusting. It is the union of two married people in the most complete way possible. It is the most intimate you can be with another person. You literally become one flesh, and may even create another human life.

Some women are more emotional than others (I am a woman, I know). Some women may have drives that allow them to get ‘in the mood’ at just the suggestion from the husband. Others need a bit more ‘courting’. These women may have extreme difficulty if they are not feeling emotionally connected to their husbands. It sounds to me as though you are one of the latter. You have alluded to extremely serious problems in your marriage of religion, money, communication, connection, ideas, and values. If you are feeling so completely disconnected from your husband, well it IS normal NOT to want to have sex with a basic STRANGER.

To your notion that you do not want it fixed? That is wrong. I am sorry, it is. You have a duty before God (as per your vows) to make it work with your husband. If he will not go to counseling see if he will speak with a religious advisor or at least a leader you both respect such as a family member. You have started counseling, that is excellent. See if he/she can recommend books you can read with your husband. Have a VERY open conversation with your husband. Dont talk so much about the sex but about how incredibly disconnected you feel from him. You two need to start courting again and realize what drew you to each other. If you can start feeling in love the sex, or at least the desire for sex should naturally follow. If it does not, then address that after you are on the same page emotionally.

If your husband refuses to admit there is a problem and refuses to take any steps to amend the problem, a seperation MAY be in order. This should be done under the direction of a good priest and therapist and be done with the intention of starting the marriage over. Only if all of this does not work should you even be speaking about annulment.

It is a long and rough road ahead. You may have made the decision to get married rashly, but you are an adult. You have made an adult decision with adult consequences. It is time to grow up and work on the problems before you.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

You were young at the moment of your wedding. Thus, you did not know the hard core of the catholic teaching on the marital act (rights, obligations and duties): to do, to give, to offer, to receive, not to do, not to give, not to offer, not to receive (anactive part and a passive part).

You need to talk to a priest about marriage, about your rights, about your obligations and also about your possibilities to get the declaration of nullity of your marriage.

Catholic Church is not obsessed with sex, it is the world that is not capable to understand the normal order of sex. The fact of making one flesh, what is it for you?

**
**Female period is a good reason for refusal, **but not in the meaning of physical impurity like in the old testament. **Say no for this reason (physiological impurity) is weird. The physiological system of female is, per se, wanted by God. it is not bad, not dirty.

Question: how does one not know these “rules” at the time of their wedding? It’s in the VOWS. Also, I’d also think the priest who did pre marriage counseling with the couple (and who also had to assess if this couple was even fit to be married) would have filled them in on all if this.

 

[fpt]

Your husband or perhaps your " pseudo husband " has to be fair with you. He has to respect your personality, your humanity, your liberty…etc. He has to respect your family and friends. He cannot force you to have sex, but he has the right to ask you for that. He has the right to try, I say to try to touch you (there is a moral presumption of agreement of sexual caresses in the marriage) for leading the marital act.

 

[fpt]

Question: how does one not know these “rules” at the time of their wedding? It’s in the VOWS. Also, I’d also think the priest who did pre marriage counseling with the couple (and who also had to assess if this couple was even fit to be married) would have filled them in on all if this.

It is a good point. I have not wanted to write that like that, in order to avoid to have to critique a priest. Your preparation of marriage was very incomplete, a lot of lacks.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

It is a good point. I have not wanted to write that like that, in order to avoid to have to critique a priest. Your preparation of marriage was very incomplete, a lot of lacks.

My cousin just got married so I saw what they went through. They had to understand fully what marriage is about before the priest would marry them.

So did the priest in this case go through that or is the OP choosing not to remember those thigs? Even if the priest didn’t, its in the vows. Surely the vows would make you think when speaking those words.

I don’t know if just regretting marrying a person because theyre not what you expected them to ne afterall qualifies for an annulment, but that’s why she should be having this case looked at now by people who know.