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Kelfa28
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Honestly…how many of these women exist in real life and not just in everyone’s head.
Very, very few.
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Very, very few.
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Rose71
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…and there’s me thinking I’d worded my original post so carefully! Thanks, all who responded for such a great debate. Please, please, don’t lets turn it into a working mum vs stay-at-home mum discussion (or even ‘mom’ 
)My gripe is that the examples offered and the way in which they were offered all presented women as self-congratulaing, smug and self-indulgent - in my opinion. I would have been just as annoyed if we had an example of a woman who claimed, “My job as a SAHM is soooo demanding. I have to balance childcare with the gym, pottery class and looking after my 3 horses; not to mention entertaining my neuro-surgeon husband’s colleagues…”
There was an article in the UK a few years ago when child benefit was going to be means-tested from a lady who (seriously!) wrote, “that money means I can enjoy a few treats, like a latte at Starbucks…” Just contrast that with a family for whom the allowance means healthy food - or even food - on the table!
I admire all women who have strived to do what they believe is the right path for themselves and (if they are blessed with one) their families. Sadly, the women my company held up as shining examples came over as ‘me! me! me!’
I love the idea of a Women’s Day where the men all buy presents and flowers! I don’t see being treated like a lady as demeaning or sexist at all! That’s where I find feminism has gone way off course is western countries: being patted on the arm and called ‘my dear’ is hardly comparable with being forcibly pinned to the ground as a child while someone cuts off part of your genitalia!
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Rose71
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Kelfa, I always enjoy your posts and I hope you don’t think I was just having a pop at all mothers who work.Have you ever been to England though? There are more than ‘a few’ of the women I am talking about over here. ShaddowBoxer describes them to a tee in her post
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Kelfa28
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In the US…no. Not possible and I highly doubt they exist so prevalently in the UK too.
Have you ever been to England though? There are more than ‘a few’ of the women I am talking about over here. ShaddowBoxer describes them to a tee in her post
Given the statistics of working class families, single moms, and poor families who live below the poverty line…even for “middle class” women when college, credit card and mortgage debt are factored in. Plus, I don’t care what people on this site claim…children are expensive. And then there are taxes.
Statistically there are far more poor/working class families in both the US and the UK. These families need mom to work just to make ends meet. That isn’t selfish.
Lets spare the whole “oh! But we weren’t talking about those families!”
You’d be back-peddling big time.
Most women do not “marry well”, they don’t work high-powered careers where they are frantically moving up the corporate ladder because those jobs just don’t exist in large numbers.
Believe it or not…most women actually care about their kids too and work hard to get to their games, practices, concerts, school events ect…and are probably heartbroken if they need to miss it.
Since we are targeting high-earners…
Are we talking just corporate business? Or do women who work as doctors, engineers, professors or scientists fall under this umbrella too? The women whose hard work and high intelligence are integral to society functioning? Are they selfish about their careers too?
I know several female doctors, female military officers and female professors who love what they do, are really good at it, earn good money and married husbands who are equally successful.
They are all mothers too.
I don’t think they are selfish and, of course I congratulate them for working hard, finding success and doing something that betters society.
Plus…most high earners don’t put their kids in public school. They put their kids in private school and still pay taxes for everyone else.
The reason why I’m arguing this is because I’m being thrown under this umbrella.
My husband has a well-paying job where I could stay at home…I chose not too. The career I hope to start is well-paying right off the start and I could choose to go to medical school if I really want to.
I resent being called selfish and accused of loving what I do over my kids. That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I’m not annoyed by your post…but the 2 or 3 subsequent posts who think women who work aren’t traditional or “ideal”.
Even if the word ideal wasn’t used here…I’ve seen that very word used to describe SAHM from those particular posters and that is insane.
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Kelfa28
Guest
A husband and wife both work as physicians at a local hospital.
They met in medical school and fell in love. Why not through in the fact that they are Catholic and had a Sacramental marriage.
They have 3 kids.
Both had a particularly long day…however, both saved the lives of their patients.
It’s the weekend and they both had to work.
Unfortunately they missed their son’s baseball game because they had to work. The grandparents took him to the game.
They get home…hang out and take him out for a late ice cream. They put him to bed and tell him they love him.
Why is it that the husband missing the game is a sacrifice and border-line heroic but the wife is selfish and only cares about her career?
Why is it that the husband got married but the wife…despite being a physician herself…apparently “married well” and doesn’t need to worry about her husband losing his job…so why is she working?
I personally knew a husband and wife team of physicians who both worked in the emergency room at a local hospital. I saw them every time they were on shift together when I worked as a paramedic.
I don’t know If they were Catholic…but they could have been.
They had three kids too.
I think it’s sad that we are labeling women who work important and well paying careers as selfish and are moms who care more about their career then their children.
They met in medical school and fell in love. Why not through in the fact that they are Catholic and had a Sacramental marriage.
They have 3 kids.
Both had a particularly long day…however, both saved the lives of their patients.
It’s the weekend and they both had to work.
Unfortunately they missed their son’s baseball game because they had to work. The grandparents took him to the game.
They get home…hang out and take him out for a late ice cream. They put him to bed and tell him they love him.
Why is it that the husband missing the game is a sacrifice and border-line heroic but the wife is selfish and only cares about her career?
Why is it that the husband got married but the wife…despite being a physician herself…apparently “married well” and doesn’t need to worry about her husband losing his job…so why is she working?
I personally knew a husband and wife team of physicians who both worked in the emergency room at a local hospital. I saw them every time they were on shift together when I worked as a paramedic.
I don’t know If they were Catholic…but they could have been.
They had three kids too.
I think it’s sad that we are labeling women who work important and well paying careers as selfish and are moms who care more about their career then their children.
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Xantippe
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I haven’t caught up with the thread, but I’ll give my two cents.I have been wondering whether to post about this for a couple of days!
I’m really disappointed in the way the company I work for has marked International Women’s Day. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of having an IWD in the first place. I’d rather there was an international Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself Day instead - regardless of gender, race, orientation etc.
If our company intranet had featured stories drawing our attention to issues of real and serious injustices towards women around the world today and some stories of women who have achieved great things in science, arts and politics i.e. some inspirational role models, then I’d have been more accepting about it all.
However, in our company, we are extremely short-staffed and faced with huge changes in the way we deliver our work because of the political climate. This is a time of limited resources, where all pulling together, focussing on our goals and working as a team has never been more important. drawing atention specifically to one gender at a time like this is, I feel, not just a waste of time, but also devisive.
It’s not just devisive between men and women either. The women within the company who were chosen for a special IWD feature on the intranet were all working mothers. Now, I have to stress, I have no problem with working mothers in principle and I feel this is a very personal choice that is nobody’s business to comment on. For some it is a choice motivated by financial necessity and for others it is a lifestyle choice - but in every case, it isn’t really anyone else’s concern.
To me, work is a place where I come to get the job done to the best of my ability. One of the strengths about this company is that we come from a variety of backgrounds and have a real mix of politcial, ethical and spritual beliefs, but at work, we’re all here for a common purpose and we work well as a team.
The articles that went up on the Intranet on IWD were all very smug, preachy and self-congratulatory accounts of how women had ‘put themselves first’ and taken promotion opportunities that meant they missed seeing their children develop. One lady wrote, “we were in London at the time. My wage would barely cover childcare, but it was impotrant to me that** I **progressed in my career.” Another gushed “My husband sees the children off to school and when I get home, I see them a couple of hours and then I willingly get my laptop out again when they are in bed, for a couple of hours” All very noble if you are struggling to make ends meet, but this was someone at almost the top of the tree! She’s also someone who colleagues can never get hold of, because her hours are so ‘flexible’ that (like many other working mothers here) she is allowed to contravene the contractual arranagement that working hours are any 8 between 7am and 7pm.
The whole focus of IWD was about women being able to get what they want and not feeling bad about the impact on their family life or their colleagues and I found it all very ‘Thought Police’.
There are some wonderful and dedicated women in this company who really have chosen, either by real choice, or lack of opportunity / confidence / who knows? to devote their lives to their careers. They are always available and have never demanded more flexibility or concessions. There are women (and men) who desperately want to become parents, but for whatever reason, can’t. There are also many women who have chosen to take a hit in income but go part-time, or decline promotion opportunities because they want to maintain a balanced work and home life. There are women who are grateful for flexible working arrangements because they are looking after infirm of elderly parents…
Interestingly, none of the ‘role model’ women were single mothers. All had working spouses and were in positions within the organisation that afforded them very good sallaries.
Being an American, I first became familiar with International Women’s Day back in the 90s, from living in post-communist Russia. At the time, it was celebrated as a sort of blend of Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day (those not being holidays they traditionally had). We Americans said among ourselves that Women’s Day was an excuse for treating women like dirt the other 364 days out of the year.
In Russia at the time, the male equivalent was Day of the Defenders of the Fatherland–as they had the draft all adult males were theoretically either past or present members of the Russian armed forces. (Although truth be told, Russian guys of the time seemed very skilled at avoiding the draft.)
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Xantippe
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Yep.
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womanatwell
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Unfortunately, there is a strong collective mindset that career women are responsible for the disintegration of the family. I think there are many factors in our great numbers of divorces, but there is no question there have been many changes in the last half century.
As I pointed out in another thread, God called Mary directly (through an angel). He did not consult with her husband, religious leaders or her parents. And Mary answered back directly (through an angel) likewise.
Many Catholics seem to think that because Mary was a mother, all married women should be so. But that is limiting God. He does as He sees fit. He knows the capabilities of each of us. If we are assured of His calling, we can go forward with confidence, even if those around us disapprove. However, there may be conflict. That is why discernment is important. We can have peace we are following God’s will even when others question us,
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Sarcelle
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This forum with all its flaws isn’t as bad as the Fundagelical forums where the ideal woman is portrayed as a Quiverfull, head-covering wearing, skirts and dresses only, homeschooling mom, who can feed her family tasty, healthy, organic meals at very low cost. Oh, and college education is a no-no especially for women and increasingly for men, since everyone knows higher education is a hotbed of liberal, satanic ideas.
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Xantippe
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If being an SAHM isn’t hard, why are there so many women who can’t hack it and are quite vocal about the fact that they can’t deal with being with their children 24/7? If you look at this thread, I think you’ll find at least two such posters.
Also, very few people do “both.” Your average working woman in a developed country does not tote her kids into the office and spend all day both caring for them and doing her normal job.
Your critique does hold up for some of the following situations:
–women who do take children to work (I have known a female professor to take a small infant to the office and class)
–in-home daycare operators with small children
–mothers of school age children
In the latter group (which I have belonged to for maybe 1-2 years), it’s genuinely true that an SAHM of school children has a lot more leisure than a working mother of children the same age, all things being equal. But there aren’t a lot of SAHMs of school age children, and if you look closely, you will often discover special circumstances–large families, disabled children, health problems, etc.
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Sarcelle
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Depends on the age of your children I guess.
Caring for two hyperactive toddlers with a relentless need to explore is different than caring for two teenagers who are in the latter years of high school.
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Xantippe
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Yeah.
A lot of these discussions assume a very well-off household without mom’s income, which is uncommon.
Also, a good income does not appear instantly. My husband has what is now an excellent job, but when I married him, he was making somewhere around $10k-$14k a year as a graduate student.
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Xantippe
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That is a very good point.
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BlueEyedLady
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There seems to be a lot of overlap between people who blame all of society’s ills on working mothers and people who believe the husband is the authority in the home.
That’s fine, but it begs the question: what about when men want their wives to work? I don’t know any married “career woman” whose husband would rather be the only breadwinner and have a stay at home wife. So what’s a proper lady to do, go against her husband’s wishes and force him to be singlehandedly responsible for the family’s survival and standard of living, or do what her husband has determined is best for the family and continue to work outside the home? And let’s not forget, it’s this group of people with the lowest divorce rates anyway.
Someone else mentioned that sending kids to school instead of keeping them home is shirking responsibility. Honestly, for me to homeschool a child would be irresponsible and prideful. In today’s world, a child deserves and needs an education not only in the liberal arts, but in math, science, and technology. I just an not equipped to give a promising tech mind the education and experience to pursue it. Same with chemistry and physics. As math goes, regression is the only thing I would be qualified to teach past basic algebra and geometry, and even then, it would be with a Pew dataset loaded into Stata.
Avoiding poverty was my #1 goal in life. It sounds strange, but I grew up very, very poor. Like, we didn’t always have food in the house and electricity was sometimes optional poor. It’s a hard, scary life. I saw how my mom worried, struggled, and sacrificed just to keep me from feeling the full effects of living like that. So you bet I went to college, double majored “just in case”, went to law school, and yes, “married well”. Not rule the world wealthy, but comfortable. If anything happens to my husband’s health, I want to be able to take care of us. If my aging mom ends up needing a lot of help, I want to keep her out of the nursing home. I’m one of those people who saves every cent I can, because I don’t know what the future holds. It’s like poverty PTSD. I make no apologies for that - it ensures I’m an asset to my firm and my family.
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Xantippe
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Also, a family that deposits children in daycare 8:30-5:30 is going to come home to a house that is much as they left it at 8. No toys will have been dumped out of bins and dragged through the house, fewer dishes will have been dirtied, there will be less Cheerio and Graham cracker dust, the diaper pail will be less full, there will be fewer potty misses in the bathrooms, etc.
Houses get much dirtier and more chaotic the more time is spent living in them and the more people live there.
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BlueEyedLady
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Like I said, it can be stressful and lonely. I’m not sure I’m the type of person who could ever do it.
But that doesn’t change the fact that being a full time mom is unskilled labor, the result of biology, and requires no real work or training to achieve. It isn’t an accomplishment, and I resent it when people (usually women) claim that it’s “the hardest job in the world” and should be as respected as a career. No, in my mind, it shouldn’t. It’s insulting to look at a female doctor and a SAHM and say that their positions should be equally valued and respected. No, one worked, sacrificed, learned, and demonstrated enormous aptitude. The other was just born female and found a husband who worked, sacrificed, learned, and demonstrated enough aptitude at something that she doesn’t have to. That outlook cheapens the accomplishments of women and of the men who make it possible for SAHMs to exist.
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BlueEyedLady
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Of course. I don’t buy that SAHMs are lazy by any stretch. I just don’t view it as an accomplishment, and I think it’s insulting to try to artificially make it one.
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Xantippe
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Is increasing Coke consumption by 25% an accomplishment to be proud of, or getting a murderer off on a technicality?
There are lots of jobs that aren’t really accomplishing anything of deep, lasting value. And in fact, there are plenty of people who ought to be ashamed of what they do at work.
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Sarcelle
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That is assuming that the sum total of a SAHM job is housework. It is not. There is also raising children which is challenging by itself.
If I were to get married and have children, I would choose to be a SAHM. I am not a good multitasker. There is something to be said about raising children well.
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BlueEyedLady
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“Technicalities” are what keep authorities honest. They’re also known as ‘civil rights’. I’m much more concerned when someone is convicted in spite of a “technicality”.
And if you can increase Coke consumption by 25%, I’m impressed. Is it useful to the world? Nope. But it’s impressive.
I’m not saying SAHMs aren’t useful, don’t provide something special to their families, or shouldn’t exist. I’m saying that I do not view it in the same way I view having a career and being a mom and I hate it when other people try to equate them. On a large scale, women have worked very hard to be recognized and respected for the things they do, not just their reproductive capacity. On an individual level, men and women work hard under pressure from and for outside sources at jobs and careers where they have had to learn skills, prove themselves to move up, and perform to someone else’s standards every day. Some people, but mostly men, increasingly women, take this burden entirely on themselves so their partner doesn’t have to. They deserve a special kind of respect for what they do and why they do it.
Staying home to care for kids is again loud and hectic. But you don’t have a boss, much less a supervisor. You don’t have a predetermined schedule that someone has set for you. You don’t really have deadlines, you don’t have backstabbing coworkers, you aren’t asked to do things you feel uncomfortable doing. Your software doesn’t change and require you to suddenly devote yourself to learning a new system while still carrying out your job. There’s never any sort of problem to negotiate, you never have to make a sale, or else. You get the idea.
It’s just not the same, and pretending that it is does a disservice to working people/parents of both genders.
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