Reflections on International Womens' Day

[BlueEyedLady]

Let me know when I can expect that luxury part.

Your post really exemplifies your ignorance re: SAHM’s. That’s all I can assume by saying their is no accomplishment in doing our job as a SAHM well. Being a parent who devotes their life to the cacontributions blendhildren is not a luxury. A blessing in many ways, but not luxury.

Would you mind reminding my 17 yo son that he loves me the most in the world…right now it he thinks it’s his lovely girl friend

But don’t you see, Feminism is based on Pride. It’s masked in “equality” but depends upon comparisons and one-up-menship. “Women are just as smart as men.” “Women are just as strong as men.” “Women can do the jobs that men do.” It’s never about raising a woman up for who they are, but always has an underlying message that tries to compare women to men. It’s about what ever a guy can do, I can do. Feminism, from its beginning, was about defining women based on a male standard. This lead to the denigration of men (who was the dope in every family show? Or commercial? The dad.) I now see this underlying model of comparison that drove the beginnings of feminism to now extend to all persons. Achievement can’t be recognized unless we can simultaneously degrade another. Pride.

It’s really not a feminist thing, it’s a person thing. People deserve to be respected for what they do. The whole “being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world” is every bit as insulting to the man who goes to work every day, is held accountable for that work, and takes on the entire financial security of his family, so his wife can stay home as it is to women who are juggling careers and raising their kids. I don’t know any SAHM IRL who thinks this is a controversial idea - they’re grateful to their husbands and for the lifestyle they provide. I think claiming that being a mom is a career or am accomplishment cheapens what the man is doing and drags down his contribution. (Kind of like giving everyone an award.) I’m not advocating to make men look “stupid” here. It used to be widely recognized that staying home was a way better deal than going to work every day. You want to complain about feminism? Why not complain about the cheapening of men’s contributions, both as fathers and providers, rather than trying to artificially boost women’s?

What I don’t like is when women will claim to want equality in one breath, then claim that by virtue of being a mother they deserve the same respect as the father who is handling both being a parent and working. I have no problem with SAHMs, and who knows, circumstances may dictate that for me someday. But either hold yourself to an equal standard, or recognize the gift that is being given and just say “thank you for what you do for us”.

 

[jmjZelie]

“If you bungle raising your children, I don’t think whatever else you do well matters very much”
-Jacqueline Kennedy

This statement, of course, presumes that it is possible to do well as a parent, and that it is possible to not do well, and that it is an accomplishment to do well at this parenting thing. Furthermore, it is one of the most important accomplishments of one’s life, or, in the worst case scenario, one’s greatest failure.

 

[jmjZelie]

“How can it be a large career to tell other people’s children about the Rule of Three, and a small career to tell one’s own children about the universe?
How can it be broad to be the same thing to everyone, and narrow to be everything to someone? No. A woman’s function is laborious, but because it is gigantic, not because it is minute. I will pity Mrs. Jones for the hugeness of her task; I will never pity her for its smallness.”

G. K. Chesterton

 

[BlueEyedLady]

you’re going to get a lot of “huh?” when you inform SAHMs how privileged they are to get to stay home and wipe bottoms.

1. As I already said upthread, one of the things that I do is to make what my husband does possible. He doesn’t have to think about a lot of things–buying himself clothes (I don’t think he’s bought himself pants or a shirt since the late 90s at least), his laundry, there being food at home, the kids getting to school, the kids being picked up, the kids’ grades, the lawn (I’ll call a guy), whether or not we’re on budget (we are), when the kids need to see the doctor or dentist, his own dental and medical appointments (I usually make those for him), going to evening school meetings, parent teacher conferences, family scheduling, etc. If he wants to/needs to, he can do evening work events, weekend work events, travel out of state, go to South America or Europe for a week–no biggie, I’ve got it covered.

1. What’s the one thing new moms want to do? Stay home and wipe bottoms. Most mothers of infants lament that they aren’t home.

Go back and look at what you wrote. Look how incredibly awesome your life is and how far you’ve come. You have so many luxuries in this paragraph that many people will never even consider. You get to raise your kids any way you like, you can spend all the time in the world researching your options, your children and husband live much more comfortably because of what you do and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s luxury, for you and your family!

I’ve read your posts since you joined the site. You’re clearly a very intelligent and very wise woman who I have a lot of respect for. I have no doubt that if you had the inclination and your family circumstances allowed, you could and would excel at pretty much whatever you wanted. It’s also clear that you work very hard and pour your mind and heart into your family.

But if your little girl told you on her 18th birthday that she was getting married now and going to stay home and start having kids right away, you would be horrified. If she started explaining that she didn’t need college job skills because she found her career and this was it, I don’t think you would buy it - for a hundred reasons.

A career doesn’t make someone who they are. Some of the most intelligent people I’ve ever known have never had careers or even worked in any skilled position. But it is something distinct, that we recognize and respect people for. We recognize and respect mothers and fathers too, and even more so, but it is different. On IWD in a Western nation, female accomplishments are what should be, and generally are, recognized. It isn’t a societal achievement that women can stay home, because they’ve always been able to. It is a societal accomplishment when women start making it in STEM and business. Individually, it takes a lot to be in the type of position the OP described, and the barrier to entry to SAHMing is very low in comparison. When its done, it’s usually only because the husband/father has succeeded enough for it to be possible. Great for him!

That’s really all I’ve been saying all along.

 

[Allegra]

You don’t get to do any of that stuff? You have a boss, external standards, and a schedule set by a third party? I doubt it.

It’s not about white collar or blue collar. Learning to install an HVAC system and make a living with that skill is an accomplishment. That’s learning to do something that not everyone can do and putting in an ongoing effort to stay current and maintain a high standard to keep or even move up at your job. Being a SAHM requires none of that. You have someone else taking on all of the pressure and stress to keep you afloat. People talk about how much easier it is to be your own boss. Being a SAHM is being your own boss x1000. It has no prereqs, no certifications, and no standards beyond not abusing your child. You set your own standards and adjust them based on your own circumstances.

IWD is about how far women have come. Why should we celebrate what we’ve always done and what virtually anyone can do? We already have Mother’s Day to honor those women.

A toddler is the most unreasonable boss known to man. I hopefully won’t come off as condescending, but you’ll get this when you have your own kids. No mom gets to make her own schedule. 24/7, you are on call and come and go at the whim of your children’s biorhythms, bowel movements, and nap time. And there’s no union rep to help you out.

 

[Javan]

A toddler is the most unreasonable boss known to man. I hopefully won’t come off as condescending, but you’ll get this when you have your own kids. No mom gets to make her own schedule. 24/7, you are on call and come and go at the whim of your children’s biorhythms, bowel movements, and nap time. And there’s no union rep to help you out.

Right.

And those working outside the home have the ability to find employment with a different company if their boss is making their work life unbearable. The parent who stays home doesn’t really get this option.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s really not a feminist thing, it’s a person thing. People deserve to be respected for what they do. The whole “being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world” is every bit as insulting to the man who goes to work every day, is held accountable for that work, and takes on the entire financial security of his family, so his wife can stay home as it is to women who are juggling careers and raising their kids. I don’t know any SAHM IRL who thinks this is a controversial idea - they’re grateful to their husbands and for the lifestyle they provide. I think claiming that being a mom is a career or am accomplishment cheapens what the man is doing and drags down his contribution. (Kind of like giving everyone an award.) I’m not advocating to make men look “stupid” here. **It used to be widely recognized that staying home was a way better deal than going to work every day. **You want to complain about feminism? Why not complain about the cheapening of men’s contributions, both as fathers and providers, rather than trying to artificially boost women’s?

What I don’t like is when women will claim to want equality in one breath, then claim that by virtue of being a mother they deserve the same respect as the father who is handling both being a parent and working. I have no problem with SAHMs, and who knows, circumstances may dictate that for me someday. But either hold yourself to an equal standard, or recognize the gift that is being given and just say “thank you for what you do for us”.

1. Back in ye goode olde dayes, dad’s work was probably physically much heavier than mom’s work. (Heck, that was even true back when I was a farm kid.) In my world, modern “women’s work” (even lightened by machinery) is physically much more taxing than my husband’s day job. He is very good at it, very smart, very respected in his field, etc., etc., but on most days the worst danger he risks at work is a really bad paper cut. He’s not going to have a tree fall on him at work, fall from 100 feet up in the air, blow himself up, or all of the grisly fates that could have easily befallen my dad at work when I was a kid.
2. We spend probably 80% of our income on our kids. So my husband isn’t really spending money on me, but on our children. That is very good of him (he does not have boat, sports car or motorcycle fever, thanks be to God), but it isn’t really something he is doing for ME.
3. Everybody is contributing to our family’s welfare according to their abilities: me, my husband, and all of the kids (even the 3-year-old).
4. My husband is giving me a gift by supporting our family financially just as I am giving him a gift by bearing his children and keeping them alive and reasonably healthy in his absence. So, there’s no need for me to kowtow.

 

[misspriss]

Again, there’s no shame in being a SAHM. But staying home to care for kids while someone else goes out to earn a living that allows you to do it is your spouse’s accomplishment, not your’s.

It’s really astonishing to me that you don’t see it as a luxury that you are able to stay home, meticulously plan out every aspect of your child’s life, tailor your schedule, day, and routine to your own talents and skills, and not have to answer to anyone except the people who love you the most in the world. Of course it’s not easy, but it’s a definite luxury.

HA. Ha. Plan out every aspect of my child’s life…tailor my schedule…Only have to answer to the two people who love me most on the world, one who CAN’T be away from me and will not allow me to even do a chore without hearing her scream for me, and the other who pushes his boundaries about every 15 minutes.

How luxurious you must have it, you don’t have to start your job until a certain time of day, when you want to eat you can just stop working and shut it all out for a while, when it’s time to go home - you can leave your work at the office. You can sleep when you want, eat when you want, bathe when you want, visit the restroom in peace whenever you need to. If you should get the flu, or need a medical procedure, or a doctor appointment, you can leave your employment in order to pursue that, without having to take it with you.

On your days off (wait, you get DAYS OFF of your job?) you can sleep as long as you want. You can do whatever you want, work free, for most likely two days out of the week. Show me a SAHM who gets the same luxury.

I guess I just don’t understand how it isn’t insulting to tell women that she can get an education, work hard, and do things in life that not everyone can do… or, she can do none of it and receive the same respect because of something that her body is capable of doing involuntarily. That minimizes women and tells them that no matter what they do, they will never be more than their biology.

Motherhood is comparable to fatherhood, not to a career. Motherhood is much more valuable and meaningful than a career (as is fatherhood). But a woman’s career is comparable to a man’s, not to a SAHM. A man’s career is comparable to a womans career, not to fatherhood.

We don’t rah rah over how accomplished and successful men are because they’re fathers. It’s patronizing to do it to women.

See being a SAHM is NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN DO INVOLUNTARILY. Give birth, yes. Be a full time mother and raise intelligent children, no. For the record, I hold SAHDs in extremely high regard.

A toddler is the most unreasonable boss known to man. I hopefully won’t come off as condescending, but you’ll get this when you have your own kids. No mom gets to make her own schedule. 24/7, you are on call and come and go at the whim of your children’s biorhythms, bowel movements, and nap time. And there’s no union rep to help you out.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

HA. Ha. Plan out every aspect of my child’s life…tailor my schedule…Only have to answer to the two people who love me most on the world, one who CAN’T be away from me and will not allow me to even do a chore without hearing her scream for me, and the other who pushes his boundaries about every 15 minutes.

How luxurious you must have it, you don’t have to start your job until a certain time of day, when you want to eat you can just stop working and shut it all out for a while, when it’s time to go home - you can leave your work at the office. You can sleep when you want, eat when you want, bathe when you want, visit the restroom in peace whenever you need to. If you should get the flu, or need a medical procedure, or a doctor appointment, you can leave your employment in order to pursue that, without having to take it with you.

On your days off (wait, you get DAYS OFF of your job?) you can sleep as long as you want. You can do whatever you want, work free, for most likely two days out of the week. Show me a SAHM who gets the same luxury.

See being a SAHM is NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN DO INVOLUNTARILY. Give birth, yes. Be a full time mother and raise intelligent children, no. For the record, I hold SAHDs in extremely high regard.

Not comparing being childfree with being a SAHM. Toddlers are toddlers whether you work or not. Working parents balance everything you mentioned above plus work. And there isn’t someone able to take care of chores and errands during the day.

Why do moms go back to work (other than money)? Generally, boredom.

Why do moms fantasize about being able to stay home full time? Because it’s easier on moms and families if it can be done without financial problems.

I’ve never been a SAHM, but I had one for awhile. Guess which lifestyle was easier? To get credit though, even when she worked (which was the vast majority of my childhood and teen years), she never missed my stuff.

 

[misspriss]

Not comparing being childfree with being a SAHM. Toddlers are toddlers whether you work or not. Working parents balance everything you mentioned above plus work. And there isn’t someone able to take care of chores and errands during the day.

Why do moms go back to work (other than money)? Generally, boredom.

Why do moms fantasize about being able to stay home full time? Because it’s easier on moms and families if it can be done without financial problems.

I chose to be a SAHM coming from a higher paying job than my husband has or will have for probably a good long time, and we both worked at the time so we were two income. I did not want to miss out on my child’s life, which is more valuable to me than money. It may be easier on me emotionally (not missing my child’s first words, steps, smile, etc), but it is definitely not without financial problems.

Funny thing, even if some people on this board don’t, my husband sure thinks it is worth it for me to stay home. Even if I have a higher education level and earning potential, he knows it is better for our children and our family dynamic to have a parent in the home full time at our children’s age.

Everyone is SO worried about the condition of the planet for future generations, but apparently “…not abusing your children” is the standard for adequate care for the actual future generations? Or is there something more that SAH parents have to do other than “not abuse the children”.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Everyone is SO worried about the condition of the planet for future generations, but apparently “…not abusing your children” is the standard for adequate care for the actual future generations? Or is there something more that SAH parents have to do other than “not abuse the children”.

The only standard any parent is held to is not abusing their children. We recognize a lot of privacy and autonomy for families, as we should. As long as you aren’t abusing your children, you can raise them any way you see fit.

That’s big part of the luxury of being a SAHM. If you want to raise your children very religiously, you can do that. If you have a love of talent for art, music, technology, whatever, you have the ability to raise your child surrounded by that. If you are an early riser, you get to a certain extent to work with that. Same with being a night owl. If you like to work out during the day or just nosh instead of take a set lunch, you can do that. Background noise? Anything you like. Parents have a lot of latitude in raising their kids, do you really deny that? Heck, some even homeschool. That’s a lot of control over your own life and your family. Living like that is a luxury.

Somehow, this gets translated into " SAHMs are overweight welfare queens with intellectual and motivational deficiencies" - and that’s nothing close to my message.

 

[jmjZelie]

Not comparing being childfree with being a SAHM. Toddlers are toddlers whether you work or not. Working parents balance everything you mentioned above plus work. And there isn’t someone able to take care of chores and errands during the day.

Why do moms go back to work (other than money)? Generally, boredom.

Why do moms fantasize about being able to stay home full time? Because it’s easier on moms and families if it can be done without financial problems.

I’ve never been a SAHM, but I had one for awhile. Guess which lifestyle was easier? To get credit though, even when she worked (which was the vast majority of my childhood and teen years), she never missed my stuff.

I think you are missing the fact that during the hours that working mothers are at work, their children are being cared for and cleaned up after. Someone else is providing the necessary care, and the house is empty. So working mothers are NOT doing all the work of a SAHM on top of their working hours. That is blatantly untrue.

Since you see being a good SAHM as no accomplishment, do you also refuse to acknowledge the accomplishments of women who run in-home daycares, or who are excellent nannies, or who operate preschool facilities, or who are talented and tender-hearted teachers? Is their effort valuable because they earn money for it? Is their effort valuable because it is for children other than their own?

Being a good SAH parent is not an involuntary thing that just happens to a person. It takes education, hard work, dedication, resourcefulness, and a genuine liking of children.

Being a SAH parent frees up the wage-earning parent to do all those things necessary to further their career and continue to provide a good income. My husband’s career would have been utterly impossible without having a SAH wife to care for his children. For many careers, this is true. They simply cannot pursue their profession AND have a family if they didn’t have a spouse willing to stay home and care for the children full time.

It is a modern notion that only paid work counts. Both my husband and I bust our behinds for our family. And he and I both know he could not be as successful in his career if I insisted on working outside the home. He literally would have stagnated in his profession. I appreciate him and celebrate his accomplishments, and he celebrates mine.

What is so ironic about all your posts here in this thread is that the first comment out of the mouth of everyone I meet when they see or hear that I have five kids or that I homeschool, is “I don’t know how you do it! That sounds too hard!” Never have I had anyone seeing me with my kids saying that my position as a SAHM is easy to get, do, or keep. Or that it doesn’t require any skills or is not an accomplishment. Nor would they dream of turning to my husband and congratulating him on being able to keep me at home, and ignore completely that I contribute a hundred hours of unpaid labor to our family every week.

 

[jmjZelie]

The only standard any parent is held to is not abusing their children. We recognize a lot of privacy and autonomy for families, as we should. As long as you aren’t abusing your children, you can raise them any way you see fit.

That’s big part of the luxury of being a SAHM. If you want to raise your children very religiously, you can do that. If you have a love of talent for art, music, technology, whatever, you have the ability to raise your child surrounded by that. If you are an early riser, you get to a certain extent to work with that. Same with being a night owl. If you like to work out during the day or just nosh instead of take a set lunch, you can do that. Background noise? Anything you like. Parents have a lot of latitude in raising their kids, do you really deny that? Heck, some even homeschool. That’s a lot of control over your own life and your family. Living like that is a luxury.

Somehow, this gets translated into " SAHMs are overweight welfare queens with intellectual and motivational deficiencies" - and that’s nothing close to my message.

Living a life of lots of hard work, where you never have to clock in because you never get to clock out, and sacrificing your own desires and preferences for the sake of the needs of your children, is NOT a life of luxury.

Raising your child as you see fit is not a luxury. It is a serious obligation that parents must fulfill.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Living a life of lots of hard work, where you never have to clock in because you never get to clock out, and sacrificing your own desires and preferences for the sake of the needs of your children, is NOT a life of luxury.

Raising your child as you see fit is not a luxury. It is a serious obligation that parents must fulfill.

None of that is unique to stay at home parents.

 

[jmjZelie]

None of that is unique to stay at home parents.

And where do their children go while working parents are at work???

Do they magically cease to exist or stop having needs?

Who is doing all that work during the day? Who is caring for them, educating them, making sure they can use the bathroom and eat a meal?

The school or the daycare or the babysitter is doing that. That is WORK. That is why they get paid for it. That is why taxes cover public education.

Someone HAS to do that work. If both parents are working, then someone else has to take care of their children. If one parent stays home, they are volunteering their unpaid labor to do all the things that cost money if others do it for them.

I have no dog in the fight over working mom vs. SAHM because as far as I see it, ALL parents work. Any parent that gives everything they’ve got to their family, is making a tremendous contribution to society and it is a huge accomplishment.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I think you are missing the fact that during the hours that working mothers are at work, their children are being cared for and cleaned up after. Someone else is providing the necessary care, and the house is empty. So working mothers are NOT doing all the work of a SAHM on top of their working hours. That is blatantly untrue.

Since you see being a good SAHM as no accomplishment, do you also refuse to acknowledge the accomplishments of women who run in-home daycares, or who are excellent nannies, or who operate preschool facilities, or who are talented and tender-hearted teachers? Is their effort valuable because they earn money for it? Is their effort valuable because it is for children other than their own?

Being a good SAH parent is not an involuntary thing that just happens to a person. It takes education, hard work, dedication, resourcefulness, and a genuine liking of children.

Being a SAH parent frees up the wage-earning parent to do all those things necessary to further their career and continue to provide a good income. My husband’s career would have been utterly impossible without having a SAH wife to care for his children. For many careers, this is true. They simply cannot pursue their profession AND have a family if they didn’t have a spouse willing to stay home and care for the children full time.

It is a modern notion that only paid work counts. Both my husband and I bust our behinds for our family. And he and I both know he could not be as successful in his career if I insisted on working outside the home. He literally would have stagnated in his profession. I appreciate him and celebrate his accomplishments, and he celebrates mine.

What is so ironic about all your posts here in this thread is that the first comment out of the mouth of everyone I meet when they see or hear that I have five kids or that I homeschool, is “I don’t know how you do it! That sounds too hard!” Never have I had anyone seeing me with my kids saying that my position as a SAHM is easy to get, do, or keep. Or that it doesn’t require any skills or is not an accomplishment. Nor would they dream of turning to my husband and congratulating him on being able to keep me at home, and ignore completely that I contribute a hundred hours of unpaid labor to our family every week.

Many, many times it’s just impractical to have two parents work with children under 5. Most times, one parent will have to take time off unless one or both parents have an especially flexible schedule and/or they work opposite shifts and/or one company has a daycare on site. And if you’re having actively growing your family, it can be impossible to work for a year, take a few months off, work another year, take time off, and so on. I’m much more referring to SAHMs who stay at home even after their kids are in school.

This conversation has just gotten asinine. I am sick of defending myself against things I didn’t say. I maintain that for IWD it doesn’t make a lot of sense to celebrate SAHMs. Mother’s Day? Absolutely. You can apply anything you want to the job, and you can create whatever parenting plan you want. But you aren’t beholden to other people for your family’s survival. It is so distinct from a career, and it should be respected as such. But in today’s America, it’s not an accomplishment in the traditional sense of the term. Being a wife isn’t an accomplishment either, but it’s my very favorite thing in the world, the thing I care most about, and the thing I would throw everything else, including the roof over my head, away for. But again, not an accomplishment. And a woman who is a wife and a mother will get respect and honor that I won’t, because I’m not a mom. Moms and career women are going to get respect and admiration for something that women who are only moms won’t, because they do something they don’t.

There’s nothing wrong with this. But it’s an insult to try to conflate them, just like it would be inappropriate and insulting to conflate fatherhood with even the best job or career.

Incredible. Everyone thinks they’re so comparable, but imagine the eyerolls I’d get if I said “Well, I don’t have kids, but I do work full time”. They aren’t the same. But I think a lot of people are getting needlessly defensive.

Goodnight guys. I can only defend against arguments I’m not making for so long, and this is getting ridiculous.

 

[jmjZelie]

Blue Eyed Lady,

I don’t care one wit about IWD. I never heard of it before and it has no relevance to me.

But the things that you have said about SAHMs are untrue and rude.

I do not conflate motherhood and career. Mostly because I value motherhood and fatherhood higher than career. Being a good parent and raising good kids is an accomplishment. I don’t see what connection that has to IWD at all. So I don’t see why this thread became a rant about SAHMs.

Why don’t we also have an International Men’s Day? And don’t tell me that men are celebrated everyday, because in the modern world, men are treated abominably because “feminism”.

The feminism of today is causing women to turn on each other (see this thread) and is turning men against women and women against men. It is ridiculous

 

[Irishmom2]

I think you need to read more about bad families.

Almost anybody can (biologically) become a mother or father, but keeping children alive is more involved than that, and being a decent parent is much, much more complicated.

If parenting is nothing, then on what grounds do we criticize bad or selfish parents?

Also, if parenting is a totally trivial activity, why does anybody choose not to have children? Why don’t they have a dozen? It’s no trouble at all–anybody can do it.

No project that takes 18+ years can be entirely trivial.

Thank you.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Blue Eyed Lady,

I don’t care one wit about IWD. I never heard of it before and it has no relevance to me.

But the things that you have said about SAHMs are untrue and rude.

I do not conflate motherhood and career. Mostly because I value motherhood and fatherhood higher than career. Being a good parent and raising good kids is an accomplishment. I don’t see what connection that has to IWD at all. So I don’t see why this thread became a rant about SAHMs.

Why don’t we also have an International Men’s Day? And don’t tell me that men are celebrated everyday, because in the modern world, men are treated abominably because “feminism”.

The feminism of today is causing women to turn on each other (see this thread) and is turning men against women and women against men. It is ridiculous

Thank you.

I posted in this thread that I heard about international woman’s day when I was in Italy and was given a flower by a boy in honor of that day.

I was I think 15, so I was in HS and more of a girl than a woman.

I would like to reiterate that the day is International Women’s Day. So it’s a celebration of the feminine, not just the career/professional/working women.

I’m a woman who stays home (for now) I’m still a woman.

 

[Allegra]

Right.

And those working outside the home have the ability to find employment with a different company if their boss is making their work life unbearable. The parent who stays home doesn’t really get this option.

Working parents can’t trade their kid in either.