Refusing to Believe Homosexual Acts Are Wrong

[fix]

I have a situation going on with a non-Catholic Christian and I am really kind of at my wits’ end with this person. What started the entire thing was me voicing my thoughts about gay marriage (after reading everyone else state that Christians were evil for “hating” homosexuals and “condemning” them by not allowing them to marry their partners, etc.). This person pretty much attacked me and asked why I hated homosexuals if I was a Christian and that “nowhere in the Bible does it say that homosexuality is a sin.” I pointed out to her that I never said being homosexual was a sin, either – but the homosexual ACTS are sinful. Again, she said the Bible doesn’t say that, and further added that, “Christ would never have condemned gay marriages.” I’ve shown her Scripture that says that homosexual acts are sinful. I have even shown her what the Catechism says. She continues to dismiss them and claim that they are my opinion only, that the book of Leviticus is not to be taken literally and again, that nowhere in the Bible does it say that homosexual acts or homosexual marriage is wrong. She also claims that if there is something in the Bible that “hints that it’s okay to treat people with disregard such as Lev. 18:22, then you can ignore that because God would never want our righteousness to get in the way of loving other people.” I don’t even know how to respond to that! What can I possibly say to this person to make her understand that what the Bible says is not my “opinion” and that I’m not just pulling things out of thin air? She just refuses to believe that homosexual acts are wrong. Help!

Prayer and fasting. The truth will only be received to the degree one is open to receiving the truth.

 

[steve_b]

Sodomy is not Homosexuality. Homosexuality is not sodomy. You’re confusing sex acts and sexual orientation, which clouds the discussion. The word homosexuality itself is an antiquated term applied to Gay and Lesbian individuals, so it’s inappropriate for any contemporary discussions of sexuality and sexual morality.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the comment, there’s nothing in scripture that condemns homosexuals having sex (i.e. with each other) . So they extend this to, let’s approve gay marriage.

1. • The comment about “no place in scripture does it condemn…”, merely shows ignorance of scripture.
   There is no confusion in the passage quoted. Heterosexuals & homosexuals are being warned about certain behavior. The context of this passage is crystal clear. Paul is listing activity that is mortal sin. We know they are mortal sins because of the consequence if one dies in theese sins. They go straight to hell.
   • 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης *arsenokoitēs]*10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
   Orientation is not the issue. Gays and lesbians aren’t being isolated or picked on. It’s the “ACT” being talked about here, regardless of orientation.
   
   Re: the sexually immoral (regardless of orientation)
   • Adulterers commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   • Male prostitutes commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   • Homosexual offenders, commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   It’s action, not orientation that is being condemned here.
   S:
   

   The fact of the matter is we don’t know the meaning of that word.

   keep reading
   S:
   

   For this reason, we can’t really know what Paul meant by it at all and any interpretations of any kind based on that word are groundless.

   ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs] teknia.com/greek-dictionary/arsenokoites

 

[CopticChristian]

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the comment, there’s nothing in scripture that condemns homosexuals having sex (i.e. with each other) . So they extend this to, let’s approve gay marriage.

1. • The comment about “no place in scripture does it condemn…”, merely shows ignorance of scripture.
   There is no confusion in the passage quoted. Heterosexuals & homosexuals are being warned about certain behavior. The context of this passage is crystal clear. Paul is listing activity that is mortal sin. We know they are mortal sins because of the consequence if one dies in theese sins. They go straight to hell.
   • 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης *arsenokoitēs]*10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
   Orientation is not the issue. Gays and lesbians aren’t being isolated or picked on. It’s the “ACT” being talked about here, regardless of orientation.
   
   Re: the sexually immoral (regardless of orientation)
   • Adulterers commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   • Male prostitutes commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   • Homosexual offenders, commit mortal sin in the sexual act
   It’s action, not orientation that is being condemned here.
   
   keep reading
   
   ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs] teknia.com/greek-dictionary/arsenokoites

1. 
   This is good…now I did ask Slavonic, as he requested that I Catechize him on this subject…
   

   Gloss:
   one engaging in homosexual acts (likely referring to the active male partner), sexual deviant
   Definition:
   a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity, a sodomite, pedarest, 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10*

   I asked Slavonic…
   

   The fact is that you believe that “we” whoever we is do not know the meaning of a word. Is it possible you have not defined this word and the word Homosexuality has no meaning to you? This is always possible that there is someone that has no understanding of a word and in that regard I wait for the word that describes…

   Unnatural, sinful and Immoral acts between two people of the same gender…what word would you like to use?

   
   It would appear that from your link that the word
   
   Deviant
   
   would be appropriate and I don’t know if that was what Slavonic was thinking?

 

[steve_b]

One Day it is I and I alone that must stand before Him…and I can do so, *not becasue of what I have done…but because what He has done for me. *

Make no mistake, we will all give an account to Him for what we’ve done.
P:

He is Hope itself…it is not required of me that “you” accept me as a brother in Christ…it is required of me that I accept you as one. That’s the difference for me…I cannot “make” anyone accept me…but it is a choice I must make…and I’m ok with that…I am in Good Hands…like Job stated…"Though He slay me, still will I trust in Him.’

Is this an attempt at justifying homosexual acts as not being wrong?

 

[CopticChristian]

Make no mistake, we will all give an account to Him for what we’ve done.

Is this an attempt at justifying homosexual acts as not being wrong?

No,

It is an example of denying authority and accepting …

1. The primary authority is the Spirit of God rather than anything written.
2. The Bible is a faithful declaration of the Spirit containing all the chief doctrines of Christianity, and thus can be relied upon as a secondary authority and a check as to whether claimed revelations of the Spirit are true revelations.
3. The Bible can only be truly understood when we are in that Spirit which is its source.
4. Jesus Christ is the true Word of God (John 1:14), but the Bible can be considered the words of God.

The problem is that who can be sure what the Spirit of God leads us to believe and thus we are dealing with Reason…using Scripture…and yielding beliefs that appear to be confusing as their is no authority to point to except the light within that guides.

 

[steve_b]

It would appear that from your link that the word

Deviant

would be appropriate and I don’t know if that was what Slavonic was thinking?

Not speaking of anyone in particular, I’m reminded of Irenaeus, in his efforts to thwart gnostics.

Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3
2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

1. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

Haven’t we all run into people Irenaeus describes here?

 

[steve_b]

1. The primary authority is the Spirit of God rather than anything written.
2. The Bible is a faithful declaration of the Spirit containing all the chief doctrines of Christianity, and thus can be relied upon as a secondary authority and a check as to whether claimed revelations of the Spirit are true revelations.
3. The Bible can only be truly understood when we are in that Spirit which is its source.
4. Jesus Christ is the true Word of God (John 1:14), but the Bible can be considered the words of God.

Is the text in “quote”, from another post in this thread, or is this a paraphrase or compilation of another person’s responses?

 

[Publisher]

Make no mistake, we will all give an account to Him for what we’ve done.



Is this an attempt at justifying homosexual acts as not being wrong?

I have no problem giving an account of myself before the Eternal One…I stand in the shadow of His grace.

My stating that I must accept those who disagree with me also as Children of God, whether or not I am accepted by them in your understanding is “an attempt at justifying homosexual acts”?

Really?

 

[steve_b]

I have no problem giving an account of myself before the Eternal One…I stand in the shadow of His grace.

My stating that I must accept those who disagree with me also as Children of God, whether or not I am accepted by them in your understanding is “an attempt at justifying homosexual acts”?

Really?

The topic is Refusing to Believe Homosexual Acts Are Wrong

Would you agree, that scripture says homosexual sexual activity, is not only wrong but condemned? Yes or No

 

[Publisher]

The topic is Refusing to Believe Homosexual Acts Are Wrong

Would you agree, that scripture says homosexual sexual activity, is wrong? Yes or No

No, I do not agree that scritpure states homosexual activity is wrong. Scripture states predatory homosexual actions are wrong. Scripture states religious prostitution which includes homosexual prostitutes is wrong. Scripture states older men may not exchange their patronage for sexual favors of younger men.

Leviticus was written to separate Israel from their pagan neighbors and pagan practices.

Romans chapter one speaks of worship practices form “exhanging the worship of God for birds” to “temple prostitution”.

1 Corinthians deals with sexual practices of pedastry and prostitution.

Scripture does not address nor encompass a modern understanding of the complexities of science, psychology, human sexuality, cosmology, biology and reporduction in any way.

It’s concepts are rooted in an ancient system of beliefs which makes the earth the center of the universe so the sun “moves across the sky of a stationary earth”…the earth floats on the surface of a large flat sea. The earth has corners, which makes sense if one view the earth as a flat square surface where one can sail off the edge. The sky is where God dwells behind a canopy of blue…the stars are the lights from heaven. The moon produces it’s own light…NO ONE in ancient times understood the rotation of the earth, the reflectence of sunlight off the moon and it’s phases as it passed behind the earth.

The writers of scripture believed demons caused sickness and disease was God’s judgement on sinners.

The writers of scripture had a “magic” world view…read Tobit who receives instructions of making a magic substance.

Scripture gives us a glimpse of how our befores understood and experienced God.

What we know of human reproduction and human sexuality was unknown to ancient man. Marriage was concieved of the man paying a “bride price” to her father…ownership was transferred from the father to the husband.

Women were viewed as imperfect “men”

Read carefully the first chapters of Genesis…Adam was presented the creatures of the earth to choose a “helpmate”…but found none that pleased him, so God formed woman from Adam’s rib…women were an after thought.

Scripture is not a science, psychology, history or text book…it is a set of religious writings of ancient man as they tried to understand the world around them.

Snakes don’t talk…neither do donkeys…the earth never stops it’s rotation, axe heads don’t float, seas and rivers are not parted by the wand/staff of a magician or holy man so people can walk across on dry ground.

It is a mythical telling, much like the Oddessy or the Illiad…just with a Semetic bend to it.

Monotheism is a late arriver on the scene of heontheism or polytheism. God was one among many until the Return when He then became the One and Only.

 

[crazzeto]

I would put down the bible, she will not be convinced by anything biblical. And in fact, I can’t think of anything that will convince such a soul. So with that in mind, I’d say the best scripture for this situation is Hebrews 6:4-6, and the advice is for you. Pray for you friend, witness your love for all souls but remain resolute in the teachings of the church.

 

[Jessie5000]

Justhad a letter from a gay christian who is not sexually active. It broke my heart for me to read how hurt he has been when particpating in conversations posted here. Seems, we should not be so concerned about winning debates on the topic…Maybe we should try to love others without judging, condeming, or trying to win theological arguments… It is much harder to love others than it is to debate them.

 

[fix]

Justhad a letter from a gay christian who is not sexually active. It broke my heart for me to read how hurt he has been when particpating in conversations posted here. Seems, we should not be so concerned about winning debates on the topic…Maybe we should try to love others without judging, condeming, or trying to win theological arguments… It is much harder to love others than it is to debate them.

This is not a pastoral counseling session nor is it a support group. People seek emotional comfort over truth. Many times those that are easily hurt or seek re-affirmation may be better off using a different venue.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Justhad a letter from a gay christian who is not sexually active. It broke my heart for me to read how hurt he has been when particpating in conversations posted here. Seems, we should not be so concerned about winning debates on the topic…Maybe we should try to love others without judging, condeming, or trying to win theological arguments… It is much harder to love others than it is to debate them.

Tell your friend I said I’m sure God and Jesus are not far from him.

It does not matter what my views of homosexuality are. Do I think they’re in general immoral? Yeah. But I think that of a lot of things including premarital heterosexual sex.

I’d take a blood transfusion from your friend just as I would from a bank robber or the street hooker. I’d have no problem drinking a beer with your friend either. And I can always use his prayers.

Theology, science, philosophy, and all intellectual things are good and have there place. Just like the law. But you can know all the theology and all the history in the world and still miss something crucial about being that a small, mentally challenged girl might not. She may think of a the nun in habit–identify her as or with–the Virgin Mary. That is enough.

 

[livingwordunity]

Publisher,

If you say that each person has the right to interpret the Bible for themselves independent of the authority of the ancient Church and ancient traditions of Christian doctrine you just gave that same right to people like Westboro Baptists who do the same thing with the Bible.

 

[steve_b]

No, I do not agree that scritpure states homosexual activity is wrong. Scripture states predatory homosexual actions are wrong. Scripture states religious prostitution which includes homosexual prostitutes is wrong. Scripture states older men may not exchange their patronage for sexual favors of younger men.

Leviticus was written to separate Israel from their pagan neighbors and pagan practices.

Romans chapter one speaks of worship practices form “exhanging the worship of God for birds” to “temple prostitution”.

1 Corinthians deals with sexual practices of pedastry and prostitution.

Scripture does not address nor encompass a modern understanding of the complexities of science, psychology, human sexuality, cosmology, biology and reporduction in any way.

It’s concepts are rooted in an ancient system of beliefs which makes the earth the center of the universe so the sun “moves across the sky of a stationary earth”…the earth floats on the surface of a large flat sea. The earth has corners, which makes sense if one view the earth as a flat square surface where one can sail off the edge. The sky is where God dwells behind a canopy of blue…the stars are the lights from heaven. The moon produces it’s own light…NO ONE in ancient times understood the rotation of the earth, the reflectence of sunlight off the moon and it’s phases as it passed behind the earth.

The writers of scripture believed demons caused sickness and disease was God’s judgement on sinners.

The writers of scripture had a “magic” world view…read Tobit who receives instructions of making a magic substance.

Scripture gives us a glimpse of how our befores understood and experienced God.

What we know of human reproduction and human sexuality was unknown to ancient man. Marriage was concieved of the man paying a “bride price” to her father…ownership was transferred from the father to the husband.

Women were viewed as imperfect “men”

Read carefully the first chapters of Genesis…Adam was presented the creatures of the earth to choose a “helpmate”…but found none that pleased him, so God formed woman from Adam’s rib…women were an after thought.

Scripture is not a science, psychology, history or text book…it is a set of religious writings of ancient man as they tried to understand the world around them.

Snakes don’t talk…neither do donkeys…the earth never stops it’s rotation, axe heads don’t float, seas and rivers are not parted by the wand/staff of a magician or holy man so people can walk across on dry ground.

It is a mythical telling, much like the Oddessy or the Illiad…just with a Semetic bend to it.

Monotheism is a late arriver on the scene of heontheism or polytheism. God was one among many until the Return when He then became the One and Only.

I think you’re reading the wrong stuff.

Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10 and the Greek word in that passage is ,ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs] = http://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/arsenokoites

I’m including multiple greek versions http://bibleapps.com/study/1_corinthians/6-9.htm move your curser accross each word to see the translation highlighted. Click on the word to get the lexicon.

Anyone thinking this is some anti gay agenda, is ignoring all the sins mentioned re: listing and condemning disordered heterosexual sins of the flesh.

all people regardless of orientation, need to heed the warnings.

fully recognizing that the following is going to happen

2 Timothy 4:1-4

 

[steve_b]

Justhad a letter from a gay christian who is not sexually active. It broke my heart for me to read how hurt he has been when particpating in conversations posted here. Seems, we should not be so concerned about winning debates on the topic…Maybe we should try to love others without judging, condeming, or trying to win theological arguments… It is much harder to love others than it is to debate them.

Personally, I don’t see how giving someone the truth is judging them.

If someone asked me, what are the sins that will prevent one from entering heaven when they die, i.e. they go to hell, i.e. mortal sin, I would give them the following.

It’s not complete but it is a good representative

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης *arsenokoitēs] *10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man

One can look up the greek word behind each word in those passages if they are curious by going to the following site. . [http://bibleapps.com/study/1_corinthians/6-9.htm (http://bibleapps.com/study/1_corinthians/6-9.htm)

There’s no question, sexual sins are front and center. In the case of gays, lesbians, & single persons, celibacy is a cross, but it beats hell. For married people, don’t stray, don’t divorce and remarry, etc because if one dies in the sin of adultery, it’s hell, and don’t use artificial contraception or abort babies.

People need to know this stuff. As we know, ignorance is not always innocent. Especially if one takes little effort to learn what they should know.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

If you say that each person has the right to interpret the Bible for themselves independent of the authority of the ancient Church and ancient traditions of Christian doctrine you just gave that same right to people like Westboro Baptists who do the same thing with the Bible.

Yes I did…it is up to ME how I respond to Westboro Baptists…my response to them has nothing to do with their behavior or words. My obligation is to continue to be a follower of Jesus of Nazareth and live His life out before them.

 

[livingwordunity]

Not speaking of anyone in particular, I’m reminded of Irenaeus, in his efforts to thwart gnostics.

Bk 3 Chapter 2 vs 2-3
2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

1. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

Thanks for sharing that quote from Saint Irenaeus.

 

[livingwordunity]

Publisher,

If you say that each person has the right to interpret the Bible for themselves independent of the authority of the ancient Church and ancient traditions of Christian doctrine you just gave that same right to people like Westboro Baptists who do the same thing with the Bible.

Yes I did…it is up to ME how I respond to Westboro Baptists…my response to them has nothing to do with their behavior or words. My obligation is to continue to be a follower of Jesus of Nazareth and live His life out before them.

Then you should have no problem with us Catholics believing that homosexual behavior and abortion are a sin since, according to you, you just want to mind your own business, right?