Refutation - Muslim view of Jesus

[jakasaki]

I’m sure you’ve seen questions like these. Got this stuff from my notes on Islam.

I know, because I’ve seen it thousands of times by muslims.

…

Jesus talked about God as “my God,”

Jesus prayed to God instead of to himself.

Jesus was submitted to God instead of to himself.

Jesus got tired but God doesn’t get tired

Jesus was tempted by the devil but God cannot be tempted

Jesus got hungry and thirsty but God never gets hungry or thirsty.

Jesus was born and also died, but God is everlasting.

…

Try to answer one at a time and do not overwhelm your self with trying to answer all of them at once. The muslim mentality will boggle your mind.

You need to ask you’re self… Where the heck do they get this from. I can tell you they get it from the Quran and the Ahadith and anti Christian sites - such as answering Christianity dot com.

You’ll need plenty of time to study this stuff, but first, you need to be strong in your faith as a Catholic and know your Bible well. I’ll tell you this… they’ll take Biblical verses and twist them.

Patience my dear friend and study hard if you want to pursue debates with muslims.

 

[jakasaki]

So, now returning back to my notes on Islam.

Look at Sura 2: #255 - the verse is long but I’ll just show you the claim that **“Jesus got tired but God doesn’t get tired” **

255 Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.

Muslims fail to understand that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

They fail to see that “man” needed the sleep, the food, the drink - not God.

They can’t fathom that God came to earth in human form.

They see it as… if God came down as a human, then who was up in heaven?

It’s such a shame muslims put a limit of what God can and cannot do!

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

How does one disprove the muslim view that Jesus is a man? .

A Catholic couldn’t disprove such a thing without falling into heresy since Christ is both fully human and fully divine. This means Christ is a man and God.

So, now returning back to my notes on Islam.

Look at Sura 2: #255 - the verse is long but I’ll just show you the claim that **“Jesus got tired but God doesn’t get tired” **

255 Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.

Muslims fail to understand that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

They fail to see that “man” needed the sleep, the food, the drink - not God.

They can’t fathom that God came to earth in human form.

They see it as… if God came down as a human, then who was up in heaven?

It’s such a shame muslims put a limit of what God can and cannot do!

Exactly. God’s divinity could never die, sleep, get tired, or be hungry. All these things we profess; however, Christ’s human nature can do all these things.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

A Catholic couldn’t disprove such a thing without falling into heresy since Christ is both fully human and fully divine. This means Christ is a man and God.

Ok then how do we prove he was God.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thank you all. I will be traveling soon and may not be able to reply for awhile. God bless.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Ok then how do we prove he was God.

The proof that He is God is because He has no earthly father. The incarnation which Muslims believe in, is the key point. Christ was born by the Virgin Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit; therefore Christ has no earthly father. Muslims claim this miracle is a sign of God’s greatness, which is correct; however, it’s also a sign of Christ divinity. You see Christ is the son of the Father because he had no earthly father, which means his Father is God. God the Father could only be rightly called the Father by His Son, if the Son had always existed with the Father. It sounds confusing but it really isn’t, you see a father could never be called father unless his child existed. If God therefore is Christ’s Father, then this means they both have existed always, together; eternal.

“And He [God] said: Let us make man to our image and likeness” -Genesis 1:26

 

[doormouse73]

When they claim the bible was corrupted how do we argue against them.

by reading things like this…

The focus of this paper is to present quotations from both Muslim and non-Muslim sources in order to make it easier for our readers to find these references, especially for those who are engaged in dialogue with Muslims.We will begin by citing references from some of Islam’s leading exegetes and historians and eventually conclude with a list of related articles, some of which deal with this issue more in-depth.

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/satanic_verses.htm

 

[wxornot]

There is a Muslim site that wants to reclaim reason. They have a few Muslim hot heads come on contesting them. They are open to Catholics providing comments. It is called, www.newageislam.com.

Instead, you see Muslims of reason debate those who are not of that persuasion. The church’s problem is the lack of dialogue with Islam, attempting it for over a thousand years.

While Islam is heretical…how would we feel if someone asked us to look at a page called new age Catholicism. Just asking.

 

[arabic_catholic]

When they claim the bible was corrupted how do we argue against them.

Just remember that muslims don’t have a dogma of bible corruption , for ibn ishaq quote a verse from the gospel of john and claim it talks about mohammed

the bible corruption argument devolped later since islam claims were not found in the bible !

second , muhammad said in sahih hadith (that is authantic saying ) : Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

so there you have it muhammad didn’t reject the torah of his time .

furthermore , you should know that all cults go into conspiracy theories to explain there religions , therefore islam claims about the gospel is no different than a mormon claiming great apostasy or JW etc… , for their claims can’t be proven by any means other than conspiracy theory and reinterpreting the bible . thus many muslims think that christians and jews corrupted the bible to hide muhamamd . this is of course 5 years old silly arguments , and muslim apologist use it to defend their claims.

 

[arabic_catholic]

The proof that He is God is because He has no earthly father. The incarnation which Muslims believe in, is the key point. Christ was born by the Virgin Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit; therefore Christ has no earthly father. Muslims claim this miracle is a sign of God’s greatness, which is correct; however, it’s also a sign of Christ divinity. You see Christ is the son of the Father because he had no earthly father, which means his Father is God. God the Father could only be rightly called the Father by His Son, if the Son had always existed with the Father. It sounds confusing but it really isn’t, you see a father could never be called father unless his child existed. If God therefore is Christ’s Father, then this means they both have existed always, together; eternal.

“And He [God] said: Let us make man to our image and likeness” -Genesis 1:26

plus isn’t the greek writier Lucian of Samosata claim that christians worship him ?

so we have outside sources that show that christians did indeed hold this belief from early on

 

[minion]

Google William lane Craig. He has had several debates with Muslims on this very subject. I recall one where be debated a Muslim by the name of shabir alli. Very enlightening and I think it will help. If I can find a link to them, I’ll post them here. God bless.

Hmm, I watched this debate:

youtube.com/watch?v=K-eOWZ34Z2k

To be honest, I think Shabir’s argument was stronger. At some point they eventually start talking past each other (around the hour-ish mark when I stopped). I didn’t take notes while listening, so I can’t give an outline, but there are certain things that are deficient in Craig’s arguments that he simply cannot answer, particularly the nature of God’s justice (ex. why did God even need Jesus? Why did God kill an His Son, and innocent? Why did God not just forgive?) which are framed better and answered in Catholic theology/typology.

I did learn a bit about Islam though…Shabir likes to attack St. Paul in particular, I noticed.

I think maybe Craig’s better at answering atheist objections. I think Peter Kreeft (Catholic philosopher) discussed Islam, I’m not sure to what degree he refuted it…have to dig up the video again and give it a watch.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thank you all. I will check these arguements out. How do we show that the corruption arguement was not taught by Muhhamed? Weve got Quran verses on the Torah. What about the bible?

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Also, why are you trying to disprove that?

Be serious, you know it’s Catholic teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate, and in islam Jesus is just only man. Isn’t it evident he wants to defend the Catholic position?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

First of all Christ was a man.

Secondly we are to demonstrate his divinity, not his manhood to Muslims. I would ask the muslim, why would the pharisees want to kill Jesus so bad? Why did the Priest tear his clothes at what Jesus said? Why did Jesus demand absolute Loyalty and dedication to himself?

 

[Seeker]

How does one disprove the muslim view that Jesus is a man? For that matter how does one go about preparing for debates with muslims? Anyone with personal experience or a link to a good debate? God bless.

you need to find a muslim that is actually/truly seeking to know about Christ/Christianity, and that is near to impossible because of the mere fact that all muslims at a very young age are indoctrinated by their imams and sheikhs that the Christians and Jews of today are not the real Christians and Jews, today’s Christian and Jews have corrupted their scriptures, Christians believe in 3 gods, Jesus was not crucified but it appeared that He was…so the very fundamental beliefs of every Trinitarian Christian Church (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Evangelical) is rejected…keep in mind that ever misconception can be refuted with substantial Biblical evidence but will systematically be rejected by the muslim.

Lets start with the person of Jesus, you will notice that first they will tell you is that they Love and Respect Isa (Islamic Jesus), He is mentioned in the Quran more times that Mohammed, He was born of a Virgin, He did numerous miracles even raising the dead, but in all this he was just a prophet/man nothing more nothing less, so early on they make you think they on your side there is no difference, now when you say well all the above is true except that Jesus is also divine, that’s when all hell breaks loose in the discussion. The first level of systematic attack is the Trinity, here are some of the questions they will ask

1. how can you claim to believe in One God, when you believe that GOD is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit?
2. Where did Jesus say I am GOD believe me? (Ahmed Deedats, their most famous islamic apologist line in his debates with Christians)

Now, you try and prove that Jesus was divine, He was one with the Father but NOT the Father or the Spirit but the Word of the Father (John 1:1) by referencing the Scriptures but now they will attack the Scriptures, so the next level systematic attack is the Bible, they use modern academic Christian and secular/atheistic Bible scholarship prove the Bible is not inerrant and has been changed thus corrupted …Bart Ehrman is Islams best apologist …Here are the comments/questions you will hear about the Bible

1. The New Testament is not the Injeel as mentioned in the Quran, the Injeel was “revealed” to Jesus, the Bible was written.
2. The Titles of the New Testament “The Gospel According To…” proves that maybe these Mathew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the Gospel, however there is no sureity
3. There are many books that are missing in the bible, Constantine decided on what books were included and what were to be excluded/rejected, and oh and it was at his council that the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated

Now if you try to prove your points by referencing the quran and hadith traditions, there again you will be shot down, because you don’t know Arabic and the interpretation or reading you took is not how the muslim ulema (scholarship) agree with…

I can keep on going but this thread can get very long, if you want me to help tackle specific questions, i will be glad to help, you just have to think they way they do.

Lastly, Just remember when muslims engage in debates their sole purpose is to reject everything you believe to upheld islam and they will do to any lengths to do so, they will violate all the known fallacies, because to somehow down play or reject islamic beliefs has both religious and cultural ramifications

 

[Reuben_J]

How does one disprove the muslim view that Jesus is a man? For that matter how does one go about preparing for debates with muslims? Anyone with personal experience or a link to a good debate? God bless.

Rule # 1 – you have to know Islam reasonably well. Try to find out what Muslims actually believe and do not attack straw man because that will not lead you anywhere.

Rule # 2 – you have to know Christianity reasonable well too. Know your Bible and if you are Catholic, know some basic Catholic doctrines.

Then argue from the basis of truth. That way you will not digress and probably you never have to defend anything that is beyond your own knowledge.

As for Jesus the man and God, there is no proof that this will be acceptable by non-Christians, so forget trying to prove anything. The best you can do is to present your belief – historically and also from the Bible. Not that Muslims will believe you but at least you are saying the truth of your faith.

Remember, when arguing with Muslims, it will be probably your words against theirs (Mohammad’s). You can argue until kingdom comes, and there will be no conclusion. But always imagine as if a third listener is listening. Thus it will be a matter of who will present a more credible argument (and let the listener decides).

Logically a Christian will have an advantage of showing that Jesus is both God and man than a Muslim who is trying to rebut that. The best way to show this is the passion, death and the resurrection narrative of all the four Gospels. The Quran does not have anything substantial on Jesus’ life except for the verse 4:157 that says Jesus was not crucified but merely made to be seen so.

Quran 4:157 is downright silly and indefensible. Muslims will of course have to use this as their basis of argument but Christians’ presentation of the passion of Jesus is million times better. Muslim like Ahmed Deedat tried to rebut this but how silly did he look that even his own kinds could not endorse him.

So basically, it is not so much about winning the debate but who can present a more reasonable argument. Christians should not worry about this as Jesus is our core belief and we have more material in support of us than do Muslims.

 

[aspirant]

Also, why are you trying to disprove that? Even Catholics believe that. He was 100% man.

He was also 100% God. That’s what the Muslims don’t understand.

Do you know anywhere I could find a way of shortening the circles and getting to the bible sooner.

This will depend, to a very large extent, on the particular person with whom you are speaking and how you engage that person. More below…

Rule # 1 – you have to know Islam reasonably well. Try to find out what Muslims actually believe and do not attack straw man because that will not lead you anywhere.

Rule # 2 – you have to know Christianity reasonable well too. Know your Bible and if you are Catholic, know some basic Catholic doctrines.

Agreed!

Rule #3 – Practice Catholicism with zeal. Love God. Love your neighbors. Pray and receive the sacraments frequently. Practice virtue. Give generously. Read the Bible, Catechism, and other spiritual works regularly. If you’re speaking with someone who prays five times a day, observes Ramadan, gives zakat, and so forth, you need to be practicing with comparable or better zeal.

Circling back to my point above:

Rule #4 – Listen very carefully to the actual, particular person with whom you are speaking. Strive to understand not only Islam generally (as in #1) but his beliefs specifically (there is theological variety among Muslims just as there is variety among Christians) and especially his personal questions. Learn, too, as much about him (or her) as a person as you can – where he’s coming from, what his personal interests and biggest concerns are, etc. Ask questions, and keep asking questions, to confirm that you rightly understand.

Rule #5 – Love the person with whom you are speaking, and demonstrate that love. Treat him (or her) with respect, as you want to be treated (whether you are or not). Pray for the person with whom you are speaking, and strive to be a true friend to that person.

Rule #6 – Using Rules #4 & 5, focus primarily not on Islam but on Catholicism. Here’s an example from a different context: I frequently study Mormonism and do know quite a bit about its flaws. But when LDS missionaries come to my house, I don’t spend my time criticizing Mormonism. I spend my time evangelizing the missionaries, communicating the truth of Catholicism. A missionary once showed me the lineage of his “priesthood,” for example, from Joseph Smith to himself. I used the opportunity to show him the list of Catholic popes from St. Peter to the present, which he had never seen. I strongly recommend this sort of focus: turning the conversation from Mormonism to Catholicism. As much as I know about Mormonism, I know far more about Catholicism, and conveying the truth of Catholicism is my real goal anyway. Rules #2 & 3 are crucial here. The LDS missionaries in this particular example were soon removed from the mission field because it was discovered that they were reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and attending local Masses (I don’t take credit, other Catholics they visited were doing the same thing I was doing).

Still, the amount of time these things take depends on the person and your relationship. I don’t encourage trying to rush or shortcut, because it will probably be less effective in the long run.

 

[KathleenGee]

What is so refreshing and enlightening is to witness the movement within Islam to return to its roots of reason. Arab scholars likewise studied Aristotle and worked to bring philosophy into the course of Islam.

But imams believed that philosophy would eventually destroy belief in God, and so the scholarly work of philosophy became prohibited within Islam, and parallel to this, the plight of women was wrought and we see it up to today in certain Islamic cultures.

I have visited www.NewAgeIslam.com a number of times and they share our same concern for radical Islam, the treatment of women and minorities, with the same compassion.

 

[KathleenGee]

Aspirant…your means of reaching the Mormons is excellent…Carry on!

 

[MartinJordan]

Aspirant really has some great stuff going there! Reasonable and concise.

Now, what do you think of this scenario/formula?-

Quran view: Christians are “People of the Book (Bible/Injil)” =** Incomplete **understanding of what the Bible is to Christians (Caveat: I speak for Catholicism in this sense).

Thus:

Quran view: Jesus is only man and prophet = **Incomplete **understanding of Jesus.



MJ