Refutation - Muslim view of Jesus

[KathleenGee]

Reuben, I must also commend you as well in your praxis of dialogue with Muslims…sorry to overlook…

 

[Ismael]

How does one disprove the muslim view that Jesus is a man? For that matter how does one go about preparing for debates with muslims? Anyone with personal experience or a link to a good debate? God bless.

Jesus WAS a man… AND God

Anyway the best bet is to compare the reliability of historical accounts.

What is more reliable?

Gospels, written 60-80 AD, fragments of which date from the 1st century and we have copies from II and III century (at least partial) and over 5000 copies through the centuries that are very consistent (yes there are ‘variations’… but 99% of these are meaningless, spelling errors or changes in spelling which do not alter the text a bit). So they are pretty reliable historical texts. Many scholars would agree (they would not all believe that Jesus is God because they are atheists or agnostics… but they would agree Jesus or his disciples claimed he was God)

Also: Pauline letters, written in 50-60 AD. (not all Pauline letters were written by Paul himself but that’s another story)

So several different sources (4 gospels, a few pauline letters)

OR

Quran, written almost 7 centuries later (at least!)?

Also what are the ‘sources’ of the Quran? Muhammed who claimed some ’ divine revelation’?

The Gospels are based on eyewitness accounts and written when most of these witnesses were still alive!

I think there is no comparison!

=========

OF COURSE this might not work with a Muslim… some of them are often 10000% convinced the Quran is the word of Allah, above any historical or scientific claim… just like Christian fundamentalists thing Genesis c.1 is 100% literal…

In that case there can be no reasonable dialogue, though.

 

[Ismael]

This will depend, to a very large extent, on the particular person with whom you are speaking and how you engage that person. More below…

Agreed!

Rule #3 – Practice Catholicism with zeal. Love God. Love your neighbors. Pray and receive the sacraments frequently. Practice virtue. Give generously. Read the Bible, Catechism, and other spiritual works regularly. If you’re speaking with someone who prays five times a day, observes Ramadan, gives zakat, and so forth, you need to be practicing with comparable or better zeal.

Circling back to my point above:

Rule #4 – Listen very carefully to the actual, particular person with whom you are speaking. Strive to understand not only Islam generally (as in #1) but his beliefs specifically (there is theological variety among Muslims just as there is variety among Christians) and especially his personal questions. Learn, too, as much about him (or her) as a person as you can – where he’s coming from, what his personal interests and biggest concerns are, etc. Ask questions, and keep asking questions, to confirm that you rightly understand.

Rule #5 – Love the person with whom you are speaking, and demonstrate that love. Treat him (or her) with respect, as you want to be treated (whether you are or not). Pray for the person with whom you are speaking, and strive to be a true friend to that person.

Rule #6 – Using Rules #4 & 5, focus primarily not on Islam but on Catholicism. Here’s an example from a different context: I frequently study Mormonism and do know quite a bit about its flaws. But when LDS missionaries come to my house, I don’t spend my time criticizing Mormonism. I spend my time evangelizing the missionaries, communicating the truth of Catholicism. A missionary once showed me the lineage of his “priesthood,” for example, from Joseph Smith to himself. I used the opportunity to show him the list of Catholic popes from St. Peter to the present, which he had never seen. I strongly recommend this sort of focus: turning the conversation from Mormonism to Catholicism. As much as I know about Mormonism, I know far more about Catholicism, and conveying the truth of Catholicism is my real goal anyway. Rules #2 & 3 are crucial here. The LDS missionaries in this particular example were soon removed from the mission field because it was discovered that they were reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and attending local Masses (I don’t take credit, other Catholics they visited were doing the same thing I was doing).

Still, the amount of time these things take depends on the person and your relationship. I don’t encourage trying to rush or shortcut, because it will probably be less effective in the long run.

Kind sir I must tell you: DAMN GOOD ADVICE!

 

[FireFromHeaven]

This will depend, to a very large extent, on the particular person with whom you are speaking and how you engage that person. More below…

Agreed!

Rule #3 – Practice Catholicism with zeal. Love God. Love your neighbors. Pray and receive the sacraments frequently. Practice virtue. Give generously. Read the Bible, Catechism, and other spiritual works regularly. If you’re speaking with someone who prays five times a day, observes Ramadan, gives zakat, and so forth, you need to be practicing with comparable or better zeal.

Circling back to my point above:

Rule #4 – Listen very carefully to the actual, particular person with whom you are speaking. Strive to understand not only Islam generally (as in #1) but his beliefs specifically (there is theological variety among Muslims just as there is variety among Christians) and especially his personal questions. Learn, too, as much about him (or her) as a person as you can – where he’s coming from, what his personal interests and biggest concerns are, etc. Ask questions, and keep asking questions, to confirm that you rightly understand.

Rule #5 – Love the person with whom you are speaking, and demonstrate that love. Treat him (or her) with respect, as you want to be treated (whether you are or not). Pray for the person with whom you are speaking, and strive to be a true friend to that person.

Rule #6 – Using Rules #4 & 5, focus primarily not on Islam but on Catholicism. Here’s an example from a different context: I frequently study Mormonism and do know quite a bit about its flaws. But when LDS missionaries come to my house, I don’t spend my time criticizing Mormonism. I spend my time evangelizing the missionaries, communicating the truth of Catholicism. A missionary once showed me the lineage of his “priesthood,” for example, from Joseph Smith to himself. I used the opportunity to show him the list of Catholic popes from St. Peter to the present, which he had never seen. I strongly recommend this sort of focus: turning the conversation from Mormonism to Catholicism. As much as I know about Mormonism, I know far more about Catholicism, and conveying the truth of Catholicism is my real goal anyway. Rules #2 & 3 are crucial here. The LDS missionaries in this particular example were soon removed from the mission field because it was discovered that they were reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and attending local Masses (I don’t take credit, other Catholics they visited were doing the same thing I was doing).

Still, the amount of time these things take depends on the person and your relationship. I don’t encourage trying to rush or shortcut, because it will probably be less effective in the long run.

Thanks I will do so.

 

[KathleenGee]

Protestants not knowing the truth of Catholicism are likewise in the same boat. Yes, it is good advice to have materials ready to show those who have been indoctrinated with a false misunderstanding of Catholicism, and the better way is in dialogue with them.

I am starting in my parish an outreach to fallen away Catholics and those who want to learn more about what Catholicism truly is, without compromise.

The points laid out here are wonderful and full of the spirit of Christ.

 

[aspirant]

I am starting in my parish an outreach to fallen away Catholics and those who want to learn more about what Catholicism truly is, without compromise.

May God richly bless this outreach!

When dialoguing with other Christians, I try to remind myself of this:
Unitatis Redintegratio:

Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame…

Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. But their primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself, in order that its life may bear witness more clearly and faithfully to the teachings and institutions which have come to it from Christ through the Apostles.

For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church’s image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God’s kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection and, each according to his station, play his part that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed. For the Church must bear in her own body the humility and dying of Jesus, against the day when Christ will present her to Himself in all her glory without spot or wrinkle.

Similarly, when looking at atheism, the Church has said:
Gaudium et Spes:

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion…

{The Church} strives to detect in the atheistic mind the hidden causes for the denial of God; conscious of how weighty are the questions which atheism raises, and motivated by love for all men, she believes these questions ought to be examined seriously and more profoundly…

The remedy which must be applied to atheism… is to be sought in a proper presentation of the Church’s teaching as well as in the integral life of the Church and her members. For it is the function of the Church, led by the Holy Spirit Who renews and purifies her ceaselessly, to make God the Father and His Incarnate Son present and in a sense visible. This result is achieved chiefly by the witness of a living and mature faith, namely, one trained to see difficulties clearly and to master them. Many martyrs have given luminous witness to this faith and continue to do so. This faith needs to prove its fruitfulness by penetrating the believer’s entire life, including its worldly dimensions, and by activating him toward justice and love, especially regarding the needy. What does the most reveal God’s presence, however, is the brotherly charity of the faithful who are united in spirit as they work together for the faith of the Gospel and who prove themselves a sign of unity.

While rejecting atheism, root and branch, the Church sincerely professes that all men, believers and unbelievers alike, ought to work for the rightful betterment of this world in which all alike live; such an ideal cannot be realized, however, apart from sincere and prudent dialogue.

Passages such as these are, I believe, great guidance from the Church to anyone involved in ecumenical communication, interreligious dialogue, and even outreach to and conversation with those who have no religion.