Refuting "Once Saved, Always Saved"...

[stacywva]

I need to know scriptural references and Catholic teachings that refute the whole “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) theology. I have had people tell me we can be 100% sure of our salvation… but I believe that’s taking God’s ability to judge into our own hands… is that right or wrong? I know that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling but as for OSAS I don’t know how to refute it.

• Brian

 

[Derwin_James]

If we are once saved, always saved, then why will Jesus be sorting sheep from goats and telling the sheep “when I was hungry, you gave me food…” and to the goats on his left “when I was hungry and thirsty, you gave me nothing…” Does that help?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

If we are once saved, always saved, then why will Jesus be sorting sheep from goats and telling the sheep “when I was hungry, you gave me food…” and to the goats on his left “when I was hungry and thirsty, you gave me nothing…” Does that help?

Referring to Matthew 25:31-46
[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[dancny]

I don’t have the scripture in front of me but let’s start with the O.T.

Israel passed through the red sea from slavery into freedom by the hand of the Lord alone. They were saved from their slavery. As soon as they got to Sinai they fell into debauchery and God had the Levites slay hundreds of them. Since the O.T. prefigures the N.T. what is our inference? Salvation can be lost if we enslave ourselves again to sin.

Second, A man owes his master a debt. The man goes to the master and pleads his case, the master forgives him. He is safe. He then grabs a fellow servant and throttles him for HIS debt. The master finds out, takes the first man and sells him into slavery confiscating all of his possesions. Inference? If God forgives us and we don’t forgive others we can lose all that we have (salvation) and be cast out.

A man goes on a journey and leaves his servants in charge of his house. They don’t know when he is coming back. Woe to them if they are found lazy. (Luke?) Inference? Jesus has gone and left us the shepards of his flock. If we are not diligent in our duties when He returns we will be in deep trouble.

The talents. A man goes on a trip and gives out talents (money) to his servants. Two invest and double their share, one buries his. The one is cast out into the darkness. If he was a servant he was saved but he lost his salvation by his laziness.

The ten virgins. Five are wise and five are foolish. When the bridegroom comes he says to the five “I do not know you.” They were in the elect! It was for them to light the way for the groom. But they were foolish and lost there place and were locked out of heaven.

O.T. again,

Moses sins. He hits the rock twice to get water because for once he doubts God’s grace. God punishes him by not allowing him to enter Cannan. he dies on the wrong side of the Jordan within sight of the land of Cannan. Now if MOSES didn’t enter Cannan, man!

Paul tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Judas worked miracles in the name of Jesus. jesus sent out the 72 and the 12 and scripture tells us they worked miracles. It doesn’t say everyone except Judas. It says “they”. Judas was an apostole. He was about as high ranking as they get. Judas lost it all. He is a curse among the people of today. If an apostole fell why can’t we?

Last for now. Lot’s wife is allowed to leave Sodom. She is safe. At the brink of safety she turns back and is destroyed.

Once saved always saved is not bibical. It is derived form a few short verses. It is refuted by so many other places. yes, we are saved by faith but we have to accept Jesus every time a choice comes up. Do I cheat on my taxes or not? Do I steal this pen from work or not? Do I call in sick to go fishiong or not? Do I watch porn or not? Every day, every choice we have to choose Christ and when we fail we have to seek forgivness with the idea of changing our lives. Once saved always saved has quite possibly led quite a few people to hell.

Oh! Is that a soapbox under me? I’m sorry. I’ll get off of it now.

 

[stacywva]

I don’t have the scripture in front of me but let’s start with the O.T.

Israel passed through the red sea from slavery into freedom by the hand of the Lord alone. They were saved from their slavery. As soon as they got to Sinai they fell into debauchery and God had the Levites slay hundreds of them. Since the O.T. prefigures the N.T. what is our inference? Salvation can be lost if we enslave ourselves again to sin.

Second, A man owes his master a debt. The man goes to the master and pleads his case, the master forgives him. He is safe. He then grabs a fellow servant and throttles him for HIS debt. The master finds out, takes the first man and sells him into slavery confiscating all of his possesions. Inference? If God forgives us and we don’t forgive others we can lose all that we have (salvation) and be cast out.

A man goes on a journey and leaves his servants in charge of his house. They don’t know when he is coming back. Woe to them if they are found lazy. (Luke?) Inference? Jesus has gone and left us the shepards of his flock. If we are not diligent in our duties when He returns we will be in deep trouble.

The talents. A man goes on a trip and gives out talents (money) to his servants. Two invest and double their share, one buries his. The one is cast out into the darkness. If he was a servant he was saved but he lost his salvation by his laziness.

The ten virgins. Five are wise and five are foolish. When the bridegroom comes he says to the five “I do not know you.” They were in the elect! It was for them to light the way for the groom. But they were foolish and lost there place and were locked out of heaven.

O.T. again,

Moses sins. He hits the rock twice to get water because for once he doubts God’s grace. God punishes him by not allowing him to enter Cannan. he dies on the wrong side of the Jordan within sight of the land of Cannan. Now if MOSES didn’t enter Cannan, man!

Paul tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Judas worked miracles in the name of Jesus. jesus sent out the 72 and the 12 and scripture tells us they worked miracles. It doesn’t say everyone except Judas. It says “they”. Judas was an apostole. He was about as high ranking as they get. Judas lost it all. He is a curse among the people of today. If an apostole fell why can’t we?

Last for now. Lot’s wife is allowed to leave Sodom. She is safe. At the brink of safety she turns back and is destroyed.

Once saved always saved is not bibical. It is derived form a few short verses. It is refuted by so many other places. yes, we are saved by faith but we have to accept Jesus every time a choice comes up. Do I cheat on my taxes or not? Do I steal this pen from work or not? Do I call in sick to go fishiong or not? Do I watch porn or not? Every day, every choice we have to choose Christ and when we fail we have to seek forgivness with the idea of changing our lives. Once saved always saved has quite possibly led quite a few people to hell.

Oh! Is that a soapbox under me? I’m sorry. I’ll get off of it now.

Well… at least now I know I was right when I felt OSAS was a false teaching…

Thanks for your post… it’s really given me clarification…

 

[rocketrob]

I need to know scriptural references and Catholic teachings that refute the whole “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) theology…I know that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling but as for OSAS I don’t know how to refute it.

• Brian

One specific scriptural reference comes from St. Paul, speaking even about himself:

“Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” (1 Cor 9:24-27)

rocketrob

 

[De_Maria]

I need to know scriptural references and Catholic teachings that refute the whole “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) theology. I have had people tell me we can be 100% sure of our salvation… but I believe that’s taking God’s ability to judge into our own hands… is that right or wrong? I know that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling but as for OSAS I don’t know how to refute it.

• Brian

This is probably the hardest verse for me to refute on this subject. Protestants frequently go to this verse to support OSAS.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,…

The only way I know how to answer this is to look back to the beginning of this chapter:

1 John 5

*1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? *

Here we see who St. John is referring to that believes in Jesus.

First he says,
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
*
Every one who loves the Father (begat) loves the Son (begotten). *But further, as we see in the next verse, Verse 1 also explains that he who loves the Son, loves those whom He begat (the children of God).
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

And here we have to work backwards. He that loves the Children of God, loves the Son, and he who loves the Son, Loves the Father. And that is he who believes in Jesus.

In other words, in order to believe in Jesus, one must keep the Commandments. And that means that Once Saved Always Saved is a false interpretation of 1 John 5:13. Because the Protestant interpretation of that verse would have you believe that simply saying, “I believe in Jesus” is enough to save your soul from perdition.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dancny]

I forgot my favorite!! What … about … REVELATIONS??

ANd because you are neither hot or cold I will spew you from my mouth.

The messages to the seven churches. If once saved is always saved WHY would God tell some of these churches that they were losing their lampstand?? This is first generation church. This is John the apostole. Ask them to refute him?

 

[dancny]

In case your wondering, the soap box comment is because some friends of mine once told me that when I get on a roll I don’t get on a soap box, I get on a case of soap boxes so the comment became a joke amongst us. One friend would ask if I needed help getting down from all those soap boxes, etc.

He also called me opinionated. Was never sure how to take that.

 

[thistle]

I need to know scriptural references and Catholic teachings that refute the whole “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) theology. I have had people tell me we can be 100% sure of our salvation… but I believe that’s taking God’s ability to judge into our own hands… is that right or wrong? I know that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling but as for OSAS I don’t know how to refute it.

• Brian

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

 

[MarcoPolo]

Also read the exhaustive Scriptural references in the "Closing Statement" of this talk by Jimmy Akin.

 

[moosears]

St. James 5:19 “My brethren,if any one of you strays from the truth and someone brings him back, he ought to know that he who causes a sinner to be brought back from his misguided way, will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.”

I wonder how the OSAS people would explain this away?

 

[justasking4]

I forgot my favorite!! What … about … REVELATIONS??

ANd because you are neither hot or cold I will spew you from my mouth.

The messages to the seven churches. If once saved is always saved WHY would God tell some of these churches that they were losing their lampstand?? This is first generation church. This is John the apostole. Ask them to refute him?

What does this have to do with OSAS?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

What does this have to do with OSAS?

Revelation 22:12-13 Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Note - Jesus says he is coming soon, to repay every one for what he has done. Sounds like Jesus doesn’t believe in OSAS. He is going to repay us for what we have DONE.

 

[justasking4]

Mea Culpa;4189245]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What does this have to do with OSAS?
Mea Culpa
Revelation 22:12-13 Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Note - Jesus says he is coming soon, to repay every one for what he has done. Sounds like Jesus doesn’t believe in OSAS. He is going to repay us for what we have DONE.

OSAS would not rule out a judgment of works that 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This judgment is not about sin since Christ has taken that out of the way but about how we lived our lives in Christ. Its not a judgment of condemnation.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

OSAS would not rule out a judgment of works that 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This judgment is not about sin since Christ has taken that out of the way but about how we lived our lives in Christ. Its not a judgment of condemnation.

So you believe in Once Saved Always Saved - Unless you do something Wrong - But we Won’t call that Sin - and there can be no condemnation in God’s judgment of us?

This is absolute nonsense. When St. Paul says “according to what he has done, whether good or bad” - what do you think the bad means if not sin?

Are you saying people are incapable of sinning once they’re “saved”?

 

[De_Maria]

OSAS would not rule out a judgment of works that 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This judgment is not about sin since Christ has taken that out of the way but about how we lived our lives in Christ. Its not a judgment of condemnation.

So its Purgatory?

 

[guanophore]

OSAS would not rule out a judgment of works that 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This judgment is not about sin since Christ has taken that out of the way but about how we lived our lives in Christ. Its not a judgment of condemnation.

If you think that wrong deeds are not sin, I don’t know what help we can give you.

You have admitted yourself that you still struggle with sin, so obviously Christ did not "take that out of " your way! Neither has he done so for anyone still on earth.

 

[Robbinson]

How about today’s scripture verse:

**“I am reminding you, brothers and sisters, of the Gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.” ** 1 cor 15:1

Here Paul talks about those who believe (so a Protestant would say is eternally saved), yet he says they must “hold fast” to the word, unless they “believed in vein” - ie., if you don’t keep to the word of the Gospel, your faith/belief will not be sufficient.

Also - look at Paul’s letter to the Romans when he describes how the Jews have been broken off the root, and the gentiles grafted in - but warns that the gentiles can be broken off in the future (saved, then unsaved).

Romans 11:19
***You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. ***
Blessings,

Brian

 

[po18guy]

Since you are dealing with “sola scriptura” types, you must rely strictly on scripture for it to make sense to them.

Judas. He was hand-picked by Christ. He travelled and taught with Jesus. He was given power to cast out demons. He healed others. He was “saved”. The devil was not in him at that point, since “a house divided against itself cannot stand”

See:

Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.”

Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”

Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.

Witness:

Luke 9:1 “When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,” (including Judas).

However:

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

**Mark 14:21 **“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Luke 22:22 “The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.”

After the “devil entered Judas”, he clearly lost his salvation. How else can you possibly interpret this?

Consider also the Apostle Peter wrote of those who have been “saved”, but lose their faith, or return to former ways:

2 Peter 2:20-21 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.”

“Worse off at the end” than at the beginning (before knowing Christ) clearly shows that salvation was lost.

You might try some of these.