Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[jcrichton]

Ever see the movie, “Hand in Hand”? A Catholic boy befriends a Jewish girl. He stands up to his friends’ taunts “you killed Jesus”. You made me think of the movie…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

No, I never have; just read the plot/synopsis (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_in_Hand_(film)); interesting film (do you know it’s history? …apparently it was too much for the censors; its release was held for several years in the UK and more so in the US.)

There have been crimes by everyone—nowadays some look for the “Fish” symbol in the Yellow Pages, so they know who not to hire (biggest cheaters). Took my car to a shop that has a sign in front proclaiming Jesus, they quoted me $350 for clutch master & slave cylinder change, charged me $780 (I’ll never go back). Mom went to a shop with “Christian” in its name – $2600 to change an oil pump (should have been < $900). Gets back to “never-lose-sight-of-the-goal” (a phrase occurring several times in my book). We claim to follow Jesus; does it really matter who is Catholic and who is Protestant? Rather, do we really follow Him?

I did not mean to rehash the past; only to offer you a Catholic take of why there’s reaction to non-Catholics.

…I concur; there’s no “umbrella” Salvation (St. Matthew 16:27; Apocalypse 22:12); sadly, there are those given to usury or robbery while claiming to be in fellowship with Christ; that fellow that coined it was very wise: caveat emptor (interestingly, though, Jesus said it this way:

2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

(St. Matthew 7:2)

Still, the greatest witness to them is “Jesus is God”, and “salvation is not by works”.

Yes, but there’s also the “shock” into thinking thing… the Jehovah Witnesses indoctrinate their followers in their interpretation of things (Bible, history, theology…); so facing them with a different and “shocking” perspective could well force them to rethink Scriptures and what has been taught to them.

Nice – I had that in my book (about “the Father calls the Son GOD”), don’t think I completed it about not saying it to an ANGEL.

Excellent point!

Jude 3:9 says Jesus had much more authority over the devil than Michael did; wonder why (if they’re the same)? And I think my argument about “proskyneo” is also good; who decides whether it means “worship”, or “obeisance”? Jesus accepted worship—either He was God, or He committed serious blasphemy. Changing the word into “mere reverence” whenever you wish (Watchtower does!) does not solve the conflict…
It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses utilize etymology in their efforts to conform the Word of God to their theological understanding… they blind themselves to the Truth through the interpretation of science. They throw away all reason. Even when confronted with contrasting events (Apocalypse 22:8-9 and Acts 14:11-15 vs the various times when Jesus is worshiped and particularly St. John 20:26-28)–even if one were to argue about a “distinction” in the root meaning of the Greek word/s, how can you dismiss the express behavior that the angel and the Apostles engaged in rejection of any signs of worship; while Jesus’ response is never there–specially when Thomas exclaims: “my Lord, and my God!”

Then there’s Hebrews 1, the Father (God) Himself Command all of the angels to worship the Son (God) (which coincidentally happens right in front of the Divine Throne)? How does etymology erases God’s Command that Jesus (the God the Saves) Be Worshiped?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If “thinkers” would join a think-tank, would not “skeptics” join a skeptic-tank???

Hi Gadgeteer!

…I was thinking more like septic-tank–rejecting the Truth can lead to a whole mess of boiling over.

Did you hear the joke about the dying rich man? Wanted to take it with him???

…some of them have tried–made a lot of robbers happy.

“Maybe if I cry hard enough Daddy won’t spank me”??? (Yes, you’re right, kids do know right from wrong…)

…master manipulators… ‘don’t you see I’m crying?’

Scripture does talk about a “seared conscience”; sear it a few times, and it goes away. (Not a good thing!)

…that ole soothsayer called it “equality.”

Along with our teaching the world that “God is real”, and that He truly LOVES each person, we also teach that God’s reality also includes justice

. Hell is equally real; God may not send anyone to Hell, but their own selfish ambition towards sin certainly does. Rom2:6-11!

Jesus is not just a ticket outta Hell; He is love incarnate, He is peace and joy and eternity – there is no peace or joy through anyone else. But He is also a ticket outta Hell. No one goes to Hell who really believes in it!
Wait, is that some new teaching?

I’ve heard that there’s no such thing as hell; that God is Good and everyone’s safe!

People spend so much energy and time reasoning out the fear and reality of hell… it’s a wonder anyone believes in God’s Justice–the “good” God is so Merciful He only uses the “scare straight” effect of hell–St. Peter is meeting everyone by the pearly gates given them a small white stone; surely, hell is just short for ‘he will save no matter what.’

Then Jesus Comes around notices that many are not wearing the right dress and His Servants Come and removes them; some, being surprised by Jesus’ unfriendly skies, turn to Him and demand? ‘Didn’t we… in you Name?’

…Jesus Faces them and replies: 'I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’

God’s Mercy and Justice do not cancel each other out; God’s Justice is placated by His Mercy but we must engage God’s Mercy by humbling submitting to His Will (St. John 3:14-21).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

:tiphat:

No, I never have; just read the plot/synopsis; interesting film (do you know it’s history?

No, I don’t; I linked you to IMDB. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it. I had forgotten Michael had accused Rachel. Did remember their thinking God would be mad, and attending each other’s church. And as I remember, the Priest and Rabbi had a long-standing friendship; think they played golf together.

…apparently it was too much for the censors; its release was held for several years in the UK and more so in the US.)

Yeah and there was a name-change, “The Cross and the Star”, to “Hand-in-Hand”.

I did not mean to rehash the past; only to offer you a Catholic take of why there’s reaction to non-Catholics.

…I concur; there’s no “umbrella” Salvation (St. Matthew 16:27; Apocalypse 22:12); sadly, there are those given to usury or robbery while claiming to be in fellowship with Christ; that fellow that coined it was very wise: caveat emptor (interestingly, though, Jesus said it this way:

Yes, Jesus condemned hypocritical judging (condemning others whilst doing the very things condemned).

(…how often do we get to use “whilst”?)

It is as Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits; no good tree produces bad, no bad tree produces good.”

Yes, but there’s also the “shock” into thinking thing… the Jehovah Witnesses indoctrinate their followers in their interpretation of things (Bible, history, theology…); so facing them with a different and “shocking” perspective could well force them to rethink Scriptures and what has been taught to them.

Yes! “Jesus is Jehovah” is the most shocking thing!

It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses utilize etymology in their efforts to conform the Word of God to their theological understanding… they blind themselves to the Truth through the interpretation of science. They throw away all reason. Even when confronted with contrasting events (Apocalypse 22:8-9 and Acts 14:11-15 vs the various times when Jesus is worshiped and particularly St. John 20:26-28)–even if one were to argue about a “distinction” in the root meaning of the Greek word/s, how can you dismiss the express behavior that the angel and the Apostles engaged in rejection of any signs of worship; while Jesus’ response is never there–specially when Thomas exclaims: “my Lord, and my God!”

Exactly! They FELL ON THEIR FACES and proskyneo. So obvious they’re beginning with the doctrine (Jesus-ain’t-God), and then altering the word wherever necessary to preserve the doctrine.

Then there’s Hebrews 1, the Father (God) Himself Command all of the angels to worship the Son (God) (which coincidentally happens right in front of the Divine Throne)? How does etymology erases God’s Command that Jesus (the God the Saves) Be Worshiped?

Well now — Heb1:6, “proskyneō”. Reaching for my copy of New World, “obeisance”. We all saw that coming, didn’t we?

Look at how they butcher verse eight:

But of the Son, (God) says — “Your throne O GOD is forever and ever…”

New World Corruption:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever…”

No, the Greek is clear, God calls the Son “God”. Often I throw out Gamaliel plus one — tell them the truth and challenge them to answer. “If this is not of God, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, not only will you not be able to overthrow it, but you may be even found fighting against God.”

…the “plus one”, is that if what we say is NOT of God, and people do not answer our words, then they allow falsehood to proliferate.

So it is of God or not, and we are responsible.

I still like what you said about “to-which-of-the-angels-did-He-say” — if Jesus is Michael-the-archangel, then it completely conflicts “He did not say to ANGELS”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi Gadgeteer!

…I was thinking more like septic-tank–rejecting the Truth can lead to a whole mess of boiling over.

Yes, the defecation really could contact the rotary ventilation device…

Speaking of which — the Nuns bought a whole case of air freshener. They were trying to get the PEWS out…

…some of them have tried–made a lot of robbers happy.

Well he kept pestering God to let him take some with him. Finally God relented – “All right, ONE suitcase.”

Saint Peter stopped him, “You can’t bring that in here!”
“Yes I can, I have permission!”

Saint Peter made the call, and came back — “You’re right you have permission, but I’m going to have to look inside.” The suitcase was filled with gold – bars, nuggets, even dust!

Saint Peter frowned, and said — “Why would anyone want to bring in …PAVING MATERIAL???”

Wait, is that some new teaching?

I’ve heard that there’s no such thing as hell; that God is Good and everyone’s safe!

People spend so much energy and time reasoning out the fear and reality of hell… it’s a wonder anyone believes in God’s Justice–the “good” God is so Merciful He only uses the “scare straight” effect of hell–St. Peter is meeting everyone by the pearly gates given them a small white stone; surely, hell is just short for ‘he will save no matter what.’

You do know I wrote a whole appendix on “Universalism”? I attended Carlton Pearson’s lecture, wrote down his verses; and address them — clearly showing “not everyone inherit the kingdom of God”, and “it is appointed once for men to die and after that comes judgment” (and after judgment their eternities do not change). If there is any post-mortem-redemption, then the Cross is redundant.

Then Jesus Comes around notices that many are not wearing the right dress and His Servants Come and removes them; some, being surprised by Jesus’ unfriendly skies, turn to Him and demand? ‘Didn’t we… in your Name?’

…Jesus Faces them and replies: 'I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’

'Zactly that. “No good tree produces bad fruit”; when we are judged according to our deeds, evil deeds expose a heart that did NOT know Jesus. Deeds never save nor condemn anyone; but they expose Jesus-in-our-hearts, or not.

(We strive to share Jesus with everyone, so that they won’t be found “OR NOT”!)

God’s Mercy and Justice do not cancel each other out; God’s Justice is placated by His Mercy but we must engage God’s Mercy by humbling submitting to His Will (St. John 3:14-21).

Again, nice citation. See how it connects with Rom2:4-11 — God’s kindness leads to repentance, but stubborn sin stores up wrath for the unbelieving, and God gives to each person what he has chosen because God IS NOT PARTIAL.

Know any doctrines which insist “God is partial” (see Acts10:34-35, Col3:25)?
(coughReformed-Theologycough)…

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, Jesus condemned hypocritical judging (condemning others whilst doing the very things condemned).

(…how often do we get to use “whilst”?)

It is as Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits; no good tree produces bad, no bad tree produces good.”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It is interesting how many of Christ’s Teachings are corrupted through ignorance or deception; Jesus is not dismissing the need to make good judgment (St. Matthew 5:20); He is warning us to not abuse others or place ourselves on a pedestal (St. Luke 18:9-14); it is the same old Calling: ‘Be Holy, for I, Yahweh your God, AM HOLY!’

Yes! “Jesus is Jehovah” is the most shocking thing!

…and don’t tell them that the term was originated by a Catholic… you could almost see the devil vs. the angel on the shoulders battle: ‘no way how can Jesus be Jehovah? Don’t hear a word they say.’ vs. ‘It is so because Jesus is the Word Who Existed from the Beginning as God and with God, you know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.’

Exactly! They FELL ON THEIR FACES and proskyneo

. So obvious they’re beginning with the doctrine (Jesus-ain’t-God), and then altering the word wherever necessary to preserve the doctrine.

Well now — Heb1:6, “proskyneō”. Reaching for my copy of New World, “obeisance”. We all saw that coming, didn’t we?

Look at how they butcher verse eight:

But of the Son, (God) says — “Your throne O GOD is forever and ever…”

New World Corruption:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever…”
That’s why “constructs” are so detrimental; they create a false tenet which displaces the Truth as those vested in the constructs cannot but be:

…blind men leading blind men; and if one blind man leads another, both will fall into a pit.’

(St. Matthew 15:14b)
Blinded by science and ego these leaders (sadly, along with their followers) reject God in the name of “true observance of reason, science, and theology.”

Have you considered what the above contortion of Scriptures proposes about Yahweh God, the Omnipotent and Omniscient?

It makes God into a self-absorbed power mongering confused babbler… as they make Him exalt the Son… only to shoot Him down: ‘you may think your something, but I am the one with the Power, so back off!’

By this line of reasoning, it’s no wander the Word became Incarnate only to suffer miserably, be tortured and tormented, and killed off–God was putting His Son in His place! Has that not been the human experience, monarchs killing off their children to prevent them from aspiring to the throne? Does this form of eisegesis not make God into the same substance which He rejects, pride and unrighteousness?

No, the Greek is clear, God calls the Son “God”. Often I throw out Gamaliel plus one

— tell them the truth and challenge them to answer. “If this is not of God, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, not only will you not be able to overthrow it, but you may be even found fighting against God.”

…the “plus one”, is that if what we say is NOT of God, and people do not answer our words, then they allow falsehood to proliferate.

So it is of God or not, and we are responsible.

I still like what you said about “to-which-of-the-angels-did-He-say” — if Jesus is Michael-the-archangel, then it completely conflicts “He did not say to ANGELS”…
Yes, it is so clear; not a single angel has been enhanced or reconstructed into the Son of God. This single passage should demonstrate to both the most intellectuals and the intellectually-challenged that Jesus cannot be an angel, any angel!

But it is as Jesus stated: ‘blind leading the blind, both will fall:’

5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in. 6 For the spirit of wisdom is benevolent, and will not acquit the evil speaker from his lips: for God is witness of his reins, and he is a true searcher of his heart, and a hearer of his tongue. 7 For the spirit of the Lord hath filled the whole world: and that, which containeth all things, hath knowledge of the voice. 8 Therefore he that speaketh unjust things cannot be hid, neither shall the chastising judgment pass him by. 9 For inquisition shall be made into the thoughts of the ungodly: and the hearing of his words shall come to God, to the chastising of his iniquities.

(Wisdom 1:5-9)
This reminds me of Ezekiel 18–Israel challenges God’s Justice because they want it their way! They place their “feelings” and “understanding” above God’s Revelations and Decrees!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well he kept pestering God to let him take some with him. Finally God relented – “All right, ONE suitcase.”

Saint Peter stopped him, “You can’t bring that in here!”
“Yes I can, I have permission!”

Saint Peter made the call, and came back — “You’re right you have permission, but I’m going to have to look inside.” The suitcase was filled with gold – bars, nuggets, even dust!

Saint Peter frowned, and said — “Why would anyone want to bring in …PAVING MATERIAL???”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…this is the best one so far.

You do know I wrote a whole appendix on “Universalism”? I attended Carlton Pearson’s lecture, wrote down his verses; and address them — clearly showing “not everyone inherit the kingdom of God”, and “it is appointed once for men to die and after that comes judgment” (and after judgment their eternities do not change). If there is any post-mortem-redemption, then the Cross is redundant.

…as well as all the warnings against refraining from sin, turning back to the old sinful life, watching for personal pitfalls, demanding that we Confess our sins, and make it absolutely clear that nothing impure would enter into the Presence of Yahweh God!

'Zactly that. “No good tree produces bad fruit”; when we are judged according to our deeds, evil deeds expose a heart that did NOT know Jesus. Deeds never save nor condemn anyone; but they expose Jesus-in-our-hearts, or not.

(We strive to share Jesus with everyone, so that they won’t be found “OR NOT”!)

Note the confusion in St. Matthew’s 7:21-23–they tooted their high spiritual prowess… but they did not understand that their works were made void by their lack of submission to God… their ego were bolstered up to high heaven as they began to believe that it was they that accomplished those things!

Again, nice citation. See how it connects with Rom2:4-11 — God’s kindness leads

to repentance, but stubborn sin stores up wrath for the unbelieving, and God gives to each person what he has chosen because God IS NOT PARTIAL.

Know any doctrines which insist “God is partial” (see Acts10:34-35, Col3:25)?
(coughReformed-Theologycough)…


Correct!

Have you noticed how the passage you’ve cited shatters all those constructs pushed by the RTs, OSASs, dispensationalists, universalists, and the good ole bleeding hearts who promote the symbolic hell?

How clearer can God’s Word be?:

8 for the unsubmissive who refused to take truth for their guide and took depravity instead, there will be anger and fury. 9 Pain and suffering will come to every human being who employs himself in evil – Jews first, but Greeks as well; 10 renown, honour and peace will come to everyone who does good – Jews first, but Greeks as well. 11 God has no favourites.

(Romans 2:8-11)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It is interesting how many of Christ’s Teachings are corrupted through ignorance or deception; Jesus is not dismissing the need to make good judgment (St. Matthew 5:20); He is warning us to not abuse others or place ourselves on a pedestal (St. Luke 18:9-14); it is the same old Calling: ‘Be Holy, for I, Yahweh your God, AM HOLY!’

…and don’t tell them that the term was originated by a Catholic…

Which Catholic?

you could almost see the devil vs. the angel on the shoulders battle: ‘no way how can Jesus be Jehovah? Don’t hear a word they say.’ vs. ‘It is so because Jesus is the Word Who Existed from the Beginning as God and with God, you know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.’

If Jesus isn’t God, it so much lessens the import of His sacrifice. “Immanuel”, God with us (Matt1:23).

That’s why “constructs” are so detrimental; they create a false tenet which displaces the Truth as those vested in the constructs cannot but be:

Blinded by science and ego these leaders (sadly, along with their followers) reject God in the name of “true observance of reason, science, and theology.”

Keep in mind the source of their doctrine – satan is the master counterfeiter, and at heart counterfeits oppose the genuine while passing themselves off AS genuine. I strongly recommend the book “Counterfeits At Your Door” (Bjornstad) – long out of print, used ones can be picked up at bookstores and online auctions. “No one counterfeiting money prints on sandpaper, or uses fluorescent pink ink, or places a picture of Mickey Mouse – he tries to make it as close to the genuine as possible. But he knows it’s not genuine, so he wrinkles it, rubs it with coffee grounds, tries many things to make it more acceptable as genuine. The best way to detect counterfeits is to get a feel for the genuine – bank tellers are taught to handle money often, so they can more easily detect the fake. So too in Christianity must we study Scripture so we are familiar with the genuine and can recognize deception!”

Have you considered what the above contortion of Scriptures proposes about Yahweh God, the Omnipotent and Omniscient?

It makes God into a self-absorbed power mongering confused babbler… as they make Him exalt the Son… only to shoot Him down: ‘you may think you’re something, but I am the one with the Power, so back off!’

I think we’ve discussed C.S.Lewis? He proposed “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic”. We have sufficient evidence of Jesus’ words; He called Himself “God” — He either was, or was not. If not then He knew He was not and He was a liar, His gospel a fraud, and the Apostles pulled the greatest con of all times (the Resurrection). Or He did not know, He was a lunatic, His whole ministry the accomplishment of a madman, and His Apostles pulled the greatest con of all time.

Lord, Liar, or Lunatic – pick one (that best fits the evidence), and live with your choice…

By this line of reasoning, it’s no wonder the Word became Incarnate only to suffer miserably, be tortured and tormented, and killed off–God was putting His Son in His place! Has that not been the human experience, monarchs killing off their children to prevent them from aspiring to the throne? Does this form of eisegesis not make God into the same substance which He rejects, pride and unrighteousness?

All of satan’s religions join in two base ideas — “Jesus is not God”, and “salvation is by works”. By promoting these, he overturns “Grace” in men’s hearts.

Yes, it is so clear; not a single angel has been enhanced or reconstructed into the Son of God. This single passage should demonstrate to both the most intellectuals and the intellectually-challenged that Jesus cannot be an angel, any angel!

I think the most effective argument towards JW’s and LDS (and many others), is to prove that God wants a union with His created beings. What nonsense would it be for God to want union between two created beings? No, we are to enter within the veil (where Jesus has entered for us), to commune personally with Yahweh.

But it is as Jesus stated: ‘blind leading the blind, both will fall:’

They’re not so much blind, as “demonically deceived”. But can’t use direct words like that, else you close their ears and hearts to the real Jesus…

This reminds me of Ezekiel 18–Israel challenges God’s Justice because they want it their way! They place their “feelings” and “understanding” above God’s Revelations and Decrees!

You and I think alot alike; that’s because we read the same Apostles’ writings, and learn the same teachings. I pray we will always be so led.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…this is the best one so far.

Well, ya’ throw them out, some hit and some don’t…

…as well as all the warnings against refraining from sin, turning back to the old sinful life, watching for personal pitfalls, demanding that we Confess our sins, and make it absolutely clear that nothing impure would enter into the Presence of Yahweh God!

As we’ve discussed, a lot of doctrines persist by using the stamp, “NOT REALLY”. Begin with a full bottle of ink, then read Scripture and simply stamp NOT REALLY NOT REALLY NOT REALLY over the parts which conflict our doctrines!

Note the confusion in St. Matthew’s 7:21-23–they tooted their high spiritual prowess… but they did not understand that their works were made void by their lack of submission to God… their ego were bolstered up to high heaven as they began to believe that it was they that accomplished those things!

How is it they do not KNOW they are “practicing wickedness”? It’s the same in Rev3 — “You think you are rich, but do not know you are poor, blind, miserable, wretched, and naked.” I think if I was any of those things I would know it — but they do not. If they could forsake their beloved sin long enough to “buy from Him gold refined by fire to become rich, clothes to cover their nakedness, salve to anoint their eyes that they might see”, then they might actually fall in LOVE with Him.

BTW, ask a Reformed Theology person “why would He say to buy gold and clothes and salve, if everything is really the consequence of God’s sovereign decision? Isn’t this all really saying ‘TURN TO ME’?”

"COME to Me all you who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

In what Universe does that even begin to fit, “God-decides-everything”?

Correct!

Have you noticed how the passage you’ve cited shatters all those constructs pushed by the RTs, OSASs, dispensationalists, universalists, and the good ole bleeding hearts who promote the symbolic hell?

It really does! Are the “unrepentant” not led to repentance by God’s kindness? They absolutely are. (“He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent!”)

Now look at how all of that connects with Deut30:11-20, which is cited by Rom10:6-10. In whose hearts is “the-word-of-faith”? Is it in the hearts of those WHO confess/believe/and-are-saved? Yes. But is it also in the hearts of “those who turn away disobey and perish”? Yes! Paul says it’s the same word-of-faith that HE was preaching about Jesus! That word is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it and give it to us, that we may observe it! It is near and not far (it is already in every man’s heart and mouth, all we have to do is confess it and believe!) — how long will anyone cling to violation-of-Scripture that claims God (and the Gospel) is terribly far from most?

Stamp-stamp-stamp, NOT-REALLY/NOT-REALLY/NOT-REALLY. When will they run out of ink?

(Sigh.)

 

[jcrichton]

Which Catholic?

Hi, Gadgeteer!

There’s this: The word Jehovah wasn’t introduced until around 1270 by Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk who used it in his book, written in the same year.

The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BC{E}) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BC{E}, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai (“my Lord”). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

)

If Jesus isn’t God, it so much lessens the import of His sacrifice. “Immanuel”, God with us (Matt1:23).

…and it places God’s Word at fault since it is God Who Testifies that He Himself Will Come to the Temple and the God-with-us (Immanuel) will Live Amongst His people (St. John 1).

Keep in mind the source

of their doctrine – satan is the master counterfeiter, and at heart counterfeits oppose the genuine while passing themselves off AS genuine. I strongly recommend the book “Counterfeits At Your Door” (Bjornstad) – long out of print, used ones can be picked up at bookstores and online auctions. “No one counterfeiting money prints on sandpaper, or uses fluorescent pink ink, or places a picture of Mickey Mouse – he tries to make it as close to the genuine as possible. But he knows it’s not genuine, so he wrinkles it, rubs it with coffee grounds, tries many things to make it more acceptable as genuine. The best way to detect counterfeits is to get a feel for the genuine – bank tellers are taught to handle money often, so they can more easily detect the fake. So too in Christianity must we study Scripture so we are familiar with the genuine and can recognize deception!”
But I think that it goes further than that; have you ever met a person that lies profusely? They end up believing their lies; they become so adapt that they reality exists within the lies; they cannot recognize or accept anything that is not tainted/based on their lies.

I think we’ve discussed C.S.Lewis? He proposed “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic”. We have sufficient evidence of Jesus’ words; He called Himself “God” — He either was, or was not. If not then He knew

He was not and He was a liar, His gospel a fraud, and the Apostles pulled the greatest con of all times (the Resurrection). Or He did not know, He was a lunatic, His whole ministry the accomplishment of a madman, and His Apostles pulled the greatest con of all time.

Lord, Liar, or Lunatic – pick one (that best fits the evidence), and live with your choice…

I don’t think we have–but Lewis’ proposal is well-known (I believe) amongst Christians. The only fault I find with it is that it depends upon reason and veracity–only a reasonable person who is honestly seeking the Truth would automatically be moved by the proposal… but as Jesus stated, even though if a man was to rise from the dead some would not Believe!

All of satan’s religions join in two base ideas — “Jesus is not God”, and “salvation is by works”. By promoting these, he overturns “Grace” in men’s hearts.

I think the most effective argument towards JW’s and LDS (and many others), is to prove that God wants a union

with His created beings. What nonsense would it be for God to want union between two created beings? No, we are to enter within the veil (where Jesus has entered for us), to commune personally with Yahweh.

They’re not so much blind, as “demonically deceived”. But can’t use direct words like that, else you close their ears and hearts to the real Jesus…
It is this independence that has caused Christians to embrace “social justice” and Christian failure. The temerity of existing alone… of engaging God only when its convenient. Our success in our life’s experience remains embedded in Christ:

5b Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing.

(St. John 15:5b)

You and I think alot alike; that’s because we read the same Apostles’ writings, and learn the same teachings. I pray we will always be so led.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well, ya’ throw them out, some hit and some don’t…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…wait, you were throwing them out? …can I keep some of them!

As we’ve discussed, a lot of doctrines persist by using the stamp, “NOT REALLY”. Begin with a full bottle of ink, then read Scripture and simply stamp NOT REALLY NOT REALLY NOT REALLY over the parts which conflict our doctrines!

How is it they do not KNOW they are “practicing wickedness”? It’s the same in Rev3 — “You think you are rich, but do not know you are poor, blind, miserable, wretched, and naked.” I think if I was any of those things I would know it

— but they do not. If they could forsake their beloved sin long enough to “buy from Him gold refined by fire to become rich, clothes to cover their nakedness, salve to anoint their eyes that they might see”, then they might actually fall in LOVE with Him.

When I was a kid a used to visit one of my cousins… she had a health issue that required her to be on a constant diet; I was surprised by the choices she made one day and I queried if she was not still on a diet? She replied, ‘yes, on a sea-food (see food) diet!’

My cousin was honest with herself; she had weighted the consequence vs the stripped dishes and she splurged where she could. Many Believers do not distinguish between what God means and what they want God to mean–ego supersedes God!

BTW, ask a Reformed Theology person “why would He say to buy gold and clothes and salve, if everything is really the consequence of God’s sovereign decision? Isn’t this all really saying ‘TURN TO ME’?”

"COME to Me all you who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

In what Universe does that even begin to fit, “God-decides-everything”?

It really does! Are the “unrepentant” not led to repentance by God’s kindness? They absolutely are. (“He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent!”)

Contortionism is not a skill for only the double jointed! I think that deep in themselves they can feel the Holy Spirit attempting to Correct their construct… but they have gotten so used to being astray that they cannot imagine such elaborate interpretation of the Word being the source of their disquietness (Spiritual uneasiness).

Now look at how all of that connects with Deut30:11-20, which is cited by Rom10:6-10. In whose hearts is “the-word-of-faith”? Is it in the hearts of those WHO confess/believe/and-are-saved? Yes. But is it also

in the hearts of “those who turn away disobey and perish”? Yes! Paul says it’s the same word-of-faith that HE was preaching about Jesus! That word is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it and give it to us, that we may observe it! It is near and not far (it is already in every man’s heart and mouth, all we have to do is confess it and believe!) — how long will anyone cling to violation-of-Scripture that claims God (and the Gospel) is terribly far from most?

Stamp-stamp-stamp, NOT-REALLY/NOT-REALLY/NOT-REALLY. When will they run out of ink?

(Sigh.)
I don’t mean to contradict… but it is not just the Word of Faith… it is the Relationship with God that they fail to engage. God remains far… because they do not see God as Jesus Revealed: ‘if you Love Me, My Father will Love you, and He and I Will make our Abode in you.’ (paraphrased)

They are resolved to know God through what man teaches them… their model is not Christ but their group’s visionaries/founders… so they get stuck on knowledge… it is the ole hollowood’s "being in love with love;’ yet, never Loving!

They read/study/share the Word of God but they shoo away the “noise” generated by the Holy Spirit, Who wants to Convict them of the Truth.

This brings us to what Jesus Christ stated about how difficult it is for the wealthy/rich to enter into Heaven–this is repeated in the passage you’ve cited above… it is the reason why those Jesus chastised are ignorant that they are not rich/wealthy but actually “poor, blind, miserable, wretched, and naked.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

There’s this: The word Jehovah wasn’t introduced until around 1270 by Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk who used it in his book, written in the same year.

Interesting! It is just a way of pronouncing “Yahweh”. Imagine my displeasure when I type that word into an electronic NIV, and it says “Jehovah is not in the Bible…” (He’s not!!! )

(BTW, didn’t Raymundus also invent an alcoholic beverage?)

…and it places God’s Word at fault since it is God Who Testifies that He Himself Will Come to the Temple and the God-with-us (Immanuel) will Live Amongst His people (St. John 1).

But I think that it goes further than that; have you ever met a person that lies profusely? They end up believing their lies; they become so adapt that they reality exists within the lies; they cannot recognize or accept anything that is not tainted/based on their lies.

The thing about lying, is you have to remember what you told to whom. It’s so much easier to just tell the truth.

…except in certain situations, "Honey, does this make me look fat???"

I don’t think we have–but Lewis’ proposal is well-known (I believe) amongst Christians. The only fault I find with it is that it depends upon reason and veracity–only a reasonable person who is honestly seeking the Truth would automatically be moved by the proposal… but as Jesus stated, even though if a man was to rise from the dead some would not Believe!

I dunno, it would sure impress ME!!!

It is this independence that has caused Christians to embrace “social justice” and Christian failure. The temerity of existing alone… of engaging God only when its convenient. Our success in our life’s experience remains embedded in Christ:

But what self-deception is it to be unaware of “practicing sin”? Those people in Matt7:21-23 — they are SHOCKED (shocked, I say!) to be confronted with not knowing Jesus but in fact been practicing wickedness! How does one achieve such ignorance?

Clearly — a conscience seared becomes a conscience silenced… :bigyikes:

Omigoodness, you used the smiley! :hug1:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…wait, you were throwing them out? …can I keep some of them!

With my pleasure! I would be honored!!!

When I was a kid a used to visit one of my cousins… she had a health issue that required her to be on a constant diet; I was surprised by the choices she made one day and I queried if she was not still on a diet? She replied, ‘yes, on a sea-food (see food) diet!’

My cousin was honest with herself; she had weighted the consequence vs the stripped dishes and she splurged where she could. Many Believers do not distinguish between what God means and what they want God to mean–ego supersedes God!

Yes; it’s actually harder to submit fully to Him. I think it helps when we first realize “His restrictions are for our own good”, and “if something is wrong only because it’s wrong to HIM, that’s good enough for us!”

Behind it all is simply the issue “is He real to us, do we really love Him?”

Contortionism is not a skill for only the double jointed!

I like it – I’ll put it up there with, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt…" :egyptian:

I think that deep in themselves they can feel the Holy Spirit attempting to Correct their construct… but they have gotten so used to being astray that they cannot imagine such elaborate interpretation of the Word being the source of their disquietness (Spiritual uneasiness).

"My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the FACTS…"

I don’t mean to contradict… but it is not just the Word of Faith… it is the Relationship with God that they fail to engage.

You’re right; I was just reflecting what Rom10 and Deut30 say. “The word-of-faith — that is, the word-of-faith that we are preaching, is IN your heart and mouth…”

Fact is, it’s in the hearts and minds of ALL men; both those who can confess believe and be saved, and those who can turn away disobey and perish. RT’s have absolutely no defense, nor can they deny Deut30:12 being a foundational refutation of Monergism, the bases of Reformed Theology…

God remains far… because they do not see God as Jesus Revealed: ‘if you Love Me, My Father will Love you, and He and I Will make our Abode in you.’ (paraphrased)

It’s not so much that “God remains far” — for it is a promise that He is not far from anyone; no, by fleeing His presence and His righteousness, many men move themselves far from Him. Even then He’s not far from them.

It’s just as the correct exegesis of Jeremiah 13:23 overturns Reformed Theology. They suppose that a leopard cannot change its spots, nor can an Ethiopian change his skin, NEITHER can someone turn to God without first monergistically having their spots removed or skin changed! Correct exegesis is that their entrenchment in evil casts them as unchangeable as a leopard’s spots or an Ethiopian’s skin! (“You are accustomed to doing evil”.) If they would turn from their wicked ways and back to God, then they would no longer be compared to leopard-spots or Ethiopian-skin.

And that this is “correct exegesis” is proven by the last verse of the chapter, verse 27 — “How long will you remain unclean?”

Oops, clearly they make a CHOICE to be leopard-spots or Ethiopian-skin!

They are resolved to know God through what man teaches them… their model is not Christ but their group’s visionaries/founders… so they get stuck on knowledge… it is the ole hollowood’s "being in love with love;’ yet, never Loving!

There are much more sinister currents going on. Both JW and LDS lure people in with “family” and emotional ties; once in, the groups engage in extortion to retain power. “Get too argumentative and WE WILL OSTRACIZE you!”

They read/study/share the Word of God but they shoo away the “noise” generated by the Holy Spirit, Who wants to Convict them of the Truth.

True; “a conscience seared enough becomes silent…”

This brings us to what Jesus Christ stated about how difficult it is for the wealthy/rich to enter into Heaven–this is repeated in the passage you’ve cited above… it is the reason why those Jesus chastised are ignorant that they are not rich/wealthy but actually “poor, blind, miserable, wretched, and naked.”

And yet, to that SAME example, Jesus said “With God all things are possible”. All things are possible to those who love God, who are the called according to His good purpose. When one turns to God the things of the world grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace. And yes it becomes possible to forsake worldly wealth for Godly riches; and to recognize false righteousness and truly turn away from sin.

As you and I agree (and opposite to Reformed Theology), we first make a choice; and we LAST make a choice. “God’s righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.” Rm1:16-17…

 

[jcrichton]

Interesting! It is just a way of pronouncing “Yahweh”. Imagine my displeasure when I type that word into an electronic NIV, and it says “Jehovah is not in the Bible…” (He’s not!!! )

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…well, there was once an ecumenical thought: ‘use Lord’ …and so you have it; I wonder if the original Biblical passages contained YHWH or Yahweh where the term “Lord” has been inserted… it seems to me that they would since some of the passages state ‘my Name;’ “Lord,” as many would know is a title not a name!

(BTW, didn’t Raymundus also invent an alcoholic beverage?

)
I don’t know; but I’ve heard that cappuccino and beer were invented by Catholic Monks (oops, I let the secret out, now the beverage industries will lose money as millions will refuse to drink cappuccinos and beers because of their religious origin ); if you’re thinking of the Martini, I gooled a story that states that the drink name itself.

The thing about lying, is you have to remember what you told to whom. It’s so much easier to just tell the truth.

…except in certain situations, "Honey, does this make me look fat???"

Yes, but there are exceptions as you’ve noted–when a person lies and believes the lies he/she would retell the same lie over and over; worst he/she believes that the lie is the truth.

I dunno, it would sure impress ME!!!

Not everyone is reasonable; not everyone who claims to being a “truth seeker” actually seeks the Truth!

But what self-deception is it to be unaware of “practicing sin”? Those people in Matt7:21-23 — they are SHOCKED (shocked, I say!) to be confronted with not knowing Jesus but in fact been practicing wickedness!

How does one achieve such ignorance?

Clearly — a conscience seared becomes a conscience silenced… :bigyikes:
It also goes to genuine ignorance; people are gullible; too many seek the easy way to everything; ever wonder about the .99 rule in marketing? A company can lie to the face of its potential clients and they do not believe that they are being shystered: only 29,999.99–it’s yours under 30K!

Christians read Scriptures… but too many times they are wearing the filters given them by their group’s founder/leaders… Once I took a test twice; the first time I failed (greenish light); the second time I passed (blue light)–the color did not change, only my statement changed. I was told to see a blue light!

Ever eaten chocolate Oreo cookies? The manufacturer employs a mess of money convincing the consumers that these chocolate cookies are great; people rely on the commercial adds’ claims and not on their taste buds!

Sadly, bad judgment does not end at cookies and cream.

Omigoodness, you used the smiley!

:hug1:
Yeah, I thought I give you a jolt!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes; it’s actually harder to submit fully to Him. I think it helps when we first realize “His restrictions are for our own good”, and “if something is wrong only because it’s wrong to HIM, that’s good enough for us!”

Behind it all is simply the issue “is He real to us, do we really love Him?”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It is interesting how people would not abide by God’s “restrictions,” yet allow things and other people to rule them–some even go to the extreme of making themselves slaves to the object of their “admiration” (worship). Yet they cannot bear God’s rule (choose Life so that you may Live).

It’s not so much that “God remains far” — for it is a promise

that He is not far from anyone; no, by fleeing His presence and His righteousness, many men move themselves far from Him. Even then He’s not far from them.
Correct; God does not move away (nothing can remove man from God’s Hand); man chooses to distance himself from God (St. John 3:14-21).

It’s just as the correct exegesis of Jeremiah 13:23 overturns Reformed Theology. They suppose that a leopard cannot change its spots, nor can an Ethiopian change his skin, NEITHER can someone turn to God without first monergistically having their spots removed or skin changed! Correct exegesis is that their entrenchment in evil

casts them as unchangeable as a leopard’s spots or an Ethiopian’s skin! (“You are accustomed to doing evil”.) If they would turn from their wicked ways and back to God, then they would no longer be compared to leopard-spots or Ethiopian-skin.

And that this is “correct exegesis” is proven by the last verse of the chapter, verse 27 — “How long will you remain unclean?”

Oops, clearly they make a CHOICE to be leopard-spots or Ethiopian-skin!
Yes! That is the temerity of selective reasoning–I think it could also be man’s efforts to displace the blame (responsibility): ‘it’s God’s fault that I am immersed in wickedness’ or ‘I will be saved not matter what.’

Yet, God Calls us to Be Free by accepting our responsibility to stop doing evil, turn to Him and to do good (Isaiah 1:15-20).

There are much more sinister currents going on. Both JW and LDS lure people in with “family” and emotional ties; once in, the groups engage in extortion

to retain power. “Get too argumentative and WE WILL OSTRACIZE you!”
…but these are not the only “savvy” manipulators… preying upon the human need to “belong” is one of Satan’s favorite tools–used by many agencies to coerce man to abide by their rule.

And yet, to that SAME example, Jesus said "With God all things are possible

". All things are possible to those who love God, who are the called according to His good purpose. When one turns to God the things of the world grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace. And yes it becomes possible to forsake worldly wealth for Godly riches; and to recognize false righteousness and truly turn away from sin.
Isaiah 1 and Ezekiel 18; it is within our power to choose to reject evil and to choose to do good. However, too many times we want to choose Life while rejecting God’s Commands.

As you and I agree (and opposite to Reformed Theology), we first make a choice; and we LAST make a choice. “God’s righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.” Rm1:16-17…

…and while it is Christ Who makes Faith possible and flourish, it is man who has ultimate control over his own life’s choice.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…well, there was once an ecumenical thought: ‘use Lord’ …and so you have it; I wonder if the original Biblical passages contained YHWH or Yahweh where the term “Lord” has been inserted… it seems to me that they would since some of the passages state ‘my Name;’ “Lord,” as many would know is a title not a name!

That’s right, NIV uses “Lord”. I had a Selectronics electronic NIV – I hacked the OS rom, so instead of “New International Version”, the power-on screen said “New Int Ver is SORRY!”

I don’t know; but I’ve heard that cappuccino and beer were invented by Catholic Monks (oops, I let the secret out, now the beverage industries will lose money as millions will refuse to drink cappuccinos and beers because of their religious origin ); if you’re thinking of the Martini, I googled a story that states that the drink name itself.

There was a cartoon of Hagar – they invented a new drink, and didn’t know what to name it. Hagar instructed Lucky-Eddie to run out and ask the first passer-by his name — “Martini, why?”

Yes, but there are exceptions as you’ve noted–when a person lies and believes the lies he/she would retell the same lie over and over; worst he/she believes that the lie is the truth.

A liar has to remember who he told what, so he doesn’t get found out.

even though if a man was to rise from the dead some would not Believe!

I dunno, it would sure impress ME!!!

Not everyone is reasonable; not everyone who claims to being a “truth seeker” actually seeks the Truth!

Of course, there are alotta spirits claimin’ to be “dead people” – so really my first knee-jerk-reaction would be "Sure, what else are you gonna claim, you fallen scumbag?"

It also goes to genuine ignorance; people are gullible; too many seek the easy way to everything; ever wonder about the .99 rule in marketing? A company can lie to the face of its potential clients and they do not believe that they are being shystered: only 29,999.99–it’s yours under 30K!

You know, ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever!

Christians read Scriptures… but too many times they are wearing the filters given them by their group’s founder/leaders… Once I took a test twice; the first time I failed (greenish light); the second time I passed (blue light)–the color did not change, only my statement changed. I was told to see a blue light!

Why “blue”? (I hear they put blue in traffic lights; 'cause no one is blue colorblind!)

Ever eaten chocolate Oreo cookies?

Never! Okay, yes…

The manufacturer employs a mess of money convincing the consumers that these chocolate cookies are great; people rely on the commercial adds’ claims and not on their taste buds!

You don’t like them?shaw:

Sadly, bad judgment does not end at cookies and cream.

Shhh, don’t tell anyone – that is my favorite cone at Braum’s!

Yeah, I thought I give you a jolt!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It is interesting how people would not abide by God’s “restrictions,” yet allow things and other people to rule them–some even go to the extreme of making themselves slaves to the object of their “admiration” (worship). Yet they cannot bear God’s rule (choose Life so that you may Live).

It all gets back to what do we choose – Him, or sin?

Correct; God does not move away (nothing can remove man from God’s Hand); man chooses to distance himself from God (St. John 3:14-21).

Careful – it doesn’t say “remove” (Jn10:26-28), it says “harpazo/sieze-remove-FORCIBLY”. Actually others can remove us from His hand, see Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, and Matt23:13-15. We can remove ourselves, 2Cor11:3, Heb3:12-14, 2Pet3:17 and many more. The same Greek appears in 1Thess4:17, “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT-UP (harpazo!) and meet Him in the air”…

God will never leave us nor forsake us, Heb13:5.

Yes! That is the temerity of selective reasoning–I think it could also be man’s efforts to displace the blame (responsibility): ‘it’s God’s fault that I am immersed in wickedness’ or ‘I will be saved not matter what.’

Ahhh, but note that Jeremiah13:23 is one of the “Fifty-Six-Secondaries” (56 verses RT’s really think promote Sovereign Predestined Salvation). Most are very easy to prove “not”…

Yet, God Calls us to Be Free by accepting our responsibility to stop doing evil, turn to Him and to do good (Isaiah 1:15-20).

Excellent citation! I hope everyone reading this discussion will look that up!

…but these are not the only “savvy” manipulators… preying upon the human need to “belong” is one of satan’s favorite tools–used by many agencies to coerce man to abide by their rule.

I agree; threats to “kick someone out” are evil extortion. UNLESS someone is promoting immorality, then yes. See Matt18:17, 2Cor6:14-17, Mk6:11…

Isaiah 1 and Ezekiel 18; it is within our power to choose to reject evil and to choose to do good. However, too many times we want to choose Life while rejecting God’s Commands.

He who seeks to gain his life will lose it; but he who loses his life for My sake will gain it.

And as we’ve discussed, RT’s will claim “you are PELAGIAN” (or semi) – if we have our own power to turn to God. Scripture never says “it’s our own power”; it says everyone is DRAWN, that God puts the word-of-faith in every last person’s heart and mouth!

So — blame God, not Pelagius…

…and while it is Christ Who makes Faith possible and flourish, it is man who has ultimate control over his own life’s choice.

This is the fundamental truth in this thing we call “Christianity” – common to Protestant, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Messianic Jew, etcetera. And it’s not just “our own choice”, it’s our own CONTINUED choice.

“As you have received Jesus SO WALK IN Him (guarding against deceivers)”, Col2:6-8!

 

[jcrichton]

That’s right, NIV uses “Lord”. I had a Selectronics electronic NIV – I hacked the OS rom, so instead of “New International Version”, the power-on screen said “New Int Ver is SORRY!”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Interesting, one of the programmers must have had a sense of guilt…

There was a cartoon of Hagar – they invented a new drink, and didn’t know what to name it. Hagar instructed Lucky-Eddie to run out and ask the first passer-by his name — “Martini, why?”

…yeah, they were the better part of the Sunday’s; too bad it became so costly to get them… do you know if they have a collection of them (like Garfield, Peanuts)?

Of course, there are alotta spirits claimin’

to be “dead people” – so really my first knee-jerk-reaction would be "Sure, what else are you gonna claim, you fallen scumbag?"
What’s really sad is that the One Person that did Return from the Dead with the Power to Give Life is seen as a farce by many.

Why “blue”? (I hear they put blue in traffic lights; 'cause no one is blue colorblind!)

It was the “Command;” everyone was expected to state: “blue” regardless of the actual color that the individual person would see… I think it was an exercise in surrendering the “will.”

Never! Okay, yes…

You don’t like them?shaw:

I have a little problem with most things… the company used to offer a couple of samplers years back… these cookies were fantastic I would swipe the Oreos the second I could… regular Oreos… well, I will not describe my disaffection for them for fear of putting readers off them.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Careful – it doesn’t say “remove” (Jn10:26-28), it says “harpazo/sieze-remove-FORCIBLY”. Actually others can remove us from His hand, see Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, and Matt23:13-15. We can remove ourselves, 2Cor11:3, Heb3:12-14, 2Pet3:17 and many more. The same Greek appears in 1Thess4:17, “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT-UP (harpazo!) and meet Him in the air”…

God will never leave us nor forsake us, Heb13:5.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think we are hitting on vocabulary; I was attempting to convey the highlighted thought; it is clear from Scriptures that we can both reject God and cause others to reject God:

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

(St. Matthew 18:6-9)

26 These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you. 27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. (1 St. John 2:26-27)

Ahhh, but note that Jeremiah13:23 is one of the "Fifty-Six-Secondaries"

(56 verses RT’s really think promote Sovereign Predestined Salvation). Most are very easy to prove “not”…
The problem is eisegesis–they get to a Scriptural passage and determine that what they interpret what Scriptures state… never mind that the passage’s header or footer dismantles their premise: ‘till when will you remain unclean?’

And as we’ve discussed, RT’s will claim “you are PELAGIAN” (or semi) – if we have our own power to turn to God. Scripture never says “it’s our own power”; it says everyone is DRAWN

, that God puts the word-of-faith in every last person’s heart and mouth!

So — blame God, not Pelagius…
What they fail to comprehend is that it is God Himself that enables man to have the ability to choose, both by allotting him freewill and they Giving him the Grace to exercise freewill.

This is the fundamental truth in this thing we call “Christianity” – common to Protestant, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Messianic Jew, etcetera. And it’s not just “our own choice”, it’s our own CONTINUED

choice.

“As you have received Jesus SO WALK IN Him (guarding against deceivers)”, Col2:6-8!
Correct… Jesus did not state, ‘you are all clean so you don’t need to abide.’ He actually Call His Disciples to Abide in Him so that He made Abide in them… which they understood as “Walk in the Light!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

I would like to gain some insight and advice from the community. Particularly if you are a convert from the Reformed tradition. My brother-in-law is a fallen-away Catholic who is currently in a reformed community. We both have a monthly bible study group and we both try to attend each others group. This month his group his study is on a sermon by Charles Spurgeon titled: THE HEART OF THE GOSPEL. It’s based on the reformed understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

I’ve included a section of the sermon here. If you want to read it in it’s entirety you can here: The Heart of The Gospel by C. H. SPURGEON (Interestingly enough, the version he gave us to read is only part of the sermon from this link. I will be reading the entire sermon from the link)

I would like some advice on how to approach this. I have the understanding that Reformed theology on 2 Cor 5:21 is the following: Our sin was imputed to Christ, “making Him to be sin,” while on the other hand Christ’s perfect obedience was imputed to us, “making us the righteousness of God.” Given the option between Imputation and Infusion, we know that since Christ wasn’t literally made sin, we can certainly say sin wasn’t infused into Him, which thus makes imputation the only acceptable interpretation. Plus, in the immediate context Paul says God did not impute our sins to us (2 Cor. 5:19), indicating that God must have imputed our sins to somewhere else, namely to Christ’s account. Having established the framework of imputation in Paul’s lesson, we can say that just as Jesus “becomes sin” (by imputation), the parallel must also hold true, namely that we “become the righteousness of God” in the same way (by a second imputation, received by faith alone). Here, in one concise verse, Paul is clearly describing a “double-imputation” going on, or a “Great Exchange” as many Protestants fondly refer to it. This is the essence of the Reformation teaching on Justification by Faith Alone.

The problem is, this passage doesn’t really say that. First, the text does not suggest we become righteousness in the same way Jesus becomes sin, i.e. by a double imputation, because Paul uses two different Greek words here, “made [sin]” and “become [righteousness]”.

Also, the Bible never speaks of imputing sin from a sinner onto an innocent substitute, such that guilt is transferred from one person to another, so to say “made sin” refers to imputation has no Biblical basis whatsoever. Thus, Christ being “made sin” must be assumed to refer to something other than imputation.

(continued on next post)

ON MORAL TEACHINGS

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

What the Reformed MISS is this:

God in an absolute sense HAS TO BE GOD; that is “perfect”

Their convenient understanding of 2 Cor. 5:21 diminishes God’s Perfection is the following manner:

1. It imputes imperfection on God who in fulfilling Gen 1:26-27 gave to every Human Soul a Mind, Intellect and freewill that has as its purpose Isa. 43: 7 &21, that HUMANITY {alone} can and therefore is obligated to PROVE their fidelity to Christ by their on-going life-choices which is clearly evident in the Bible
2. It denies HUMANITY their RIGHT before GOD to choose for themselves either Eternal hell or Heaven

Jas.2: [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

“ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

The ENTIRE Bible is to be utilized, not just one passage; SOULS depend upon this fact

GBY

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Interesting, one of the programmers must have had a sense of guilt…

No, I reprogrammed it – popped it into a programmer, and the text was clear. So I changed it.

…yeah, they were the better part of the Sunday’s; too bad it became so costly to get them… do you know if they have a collection of them (like Garfield, Peanuts)?

You can get them online – there used to be “comics.com” and several others. Most newspapers also have a free online version with comics…

What’s really sad is that the One Person that did Return from the Dead with the Power to Give Life is seen as a farce by many.

Two thousand years later, some people think “it was a myth”. But there is more documentation and credibility than with any other written record.

There are nearly 5000 copies surviving time, some datable to within 50 years of Christ. That those copies were not trashed at FIRST is significant – they claim “thousands of people saw resurrected-Jesus”, had that been untrue they never would have allowed the texts to stand.

Paul said His resurrection is proof to all. I perceive that God does not want our faith to be based on miracles; so one “raising from the dead today” would be such theatrics, and He’d rather be known through what He has made and the written record of Jesus…

It was the “Command;” everyone was expected to state: “blue” regardless of the actual color that the individual person would see… I think it was an exercise in surrendering the “will.”

Interesting. Ever see the “social pressure” skits on Candid Camera? They would have an elevator car filled (and a newcomer/victim enter), then everyone in the car would turn and face the side wall. The victim would turn to. Then they’d all face the back, and the victim would face the back too. “Social pressure”.

I have a little problem with most things… the company used to offer a couple of samplers years back… these cookies were fantastic I would swipe the Oreos the second I could… regular Oreos… well, I will not describe my disaffection for them for fear of putting readers off them.

Well, a kid’dle eat the middle first!!!