Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think we are hitting on vocabulary; I was attempting to convey the highlighted thought; it is clear from Scriptures that we can both reject God and cause others to reject God:
(citations St. Matthew 18:6-9, 1 St. John 2:26-27)

Excellent citations! You know, you keep THAT up, and you’ll never make a good Reformed Theologian!

The problem is eisegesis–they get to a Scriptural passage and determine that what they interpret what Scriptures state… never mind that the passage’s header or footer dismantles their premise: ‘till when will you remain unclean?’

'Zactly. While a leopard cannot change its spots, nor can an Ethiopian change his skin, what makes us as unchangeable AS leopard-spots OR Ethiopian-skin, is entrenchment in sin. You’re right, the last verse cannot ever fit “it’s beyond your control”.

Goodness — how many times must it say “It’s not too far NOR TOO DIFFICULT”, before we are forced to believe it?

What they fail to comprehend is that it is God Himself that enables man to have the ability to choose, both by allotting him freewill and they Giving him the Grace to exercise freewill.

That is what Deut30:11-20 (linked as it is with Rom10:6-10!), Acts17:26-31, and many others say; they are blatant and absolute, non-negotiable.

But “doctrines die hard”, denial is not just a river in Egypt. :egyptian:
(I’m sorry, I love that Egypt-guy!)

Correct… Jesus did not state, ‘you are all clean so you don’t need to abide.’ He actually Call His Disciples to Abide in Him so that He made Abide in them… which they understood as “Walk in the Light!”

To whom is Paul talking with “if you CLEANSE YOURSELVES from these things, then you will be an honor vessel useful to the Master”, and John (citing Jesus) “blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life”?

2Tim2:21, Rev22:14

 

[Gadgeteer]

ON MORAL TEACHINGS

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

PJM, brother, may I respond? You and I are not in disagreement on most things.

What you say is accurate and true; yet, Scripture does teach clear things, and the verses do not contradict.

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

The idea of “INTERPRETATION”, is when more than one meaning is possible. If you or I read a Scripture that teaches something clear, corroborate it with other verses (and cannot show the “clear meaning” conflicts something else), then only one meaning is possible. For instance — in Rom3 RT’s think “no one CAN do good”, but miss Jesus’ words of Lk6:33 (“sinners do good…”)

What the Reformed MISS is this:

God in an absolute sense HAS TO BE GOD; that is “perfect”

Their convenient understanding of 2 Cor. 5:21 diminishes God’s Perfection is the following manner:

1. It imputes imperfection on God who in fulfilling Gen 1:26-27 gave to every Human Soul a Mind, Intellect and freewill that has as its purpose Isa. 43: 7 &21, that HUMANITY {alone} can and therefore is obligated to PROVE their fidelity to Christ by their on-going life-choices which is clearly evident in the Bible

The very essence of love includes “cannot-demand-its-own-way” (1Cor13:5), God cannot dictate who loves Him back. God is love (1Jn4:16), and every person must be free to obey His command or to reject Him.

1. It denies HUMANITY their RIGHT before GOD to choose for themselves either Eternal hell or Heaven

Throughout Scripture is the dictate “CHOOSE LIFE by loving God, by obeying Him and holding fast to Him!”

Not only do RT’s impugn God’s perfect righteousness (by claiming He ordains wickedness), they in fact cannot know they belong to Him until their very last breath on Earth! What a fearful, terrifying position!

Jas.2: [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yes; in context, we are not justified directly by works (else we would have something to brag about), we are justified as our doing-good-works perfects our faith.

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

Excellent. Same as Rev20:13, Rom2:6-10, and many others — “judged by our works”. Yet, Rom11:6 remains (“if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”) — our works expose our hearts. Both at the Judgment, and here while we live (“test yourselves, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith”). 2Cor13:5 and 2Pet1:5-11 our works show us if we are in Christ, or if we must seek Him that better works result. It’s the same in 1Cor5 — “saved so as through fire” simply means if our works get burned up we must seek Him that better works result.

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

“ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

The ENTIRE Bible is to be utilized, not just one passage; SOULS depend upon this fact

GBY

A very good post, PJM – well done. We do His will and keep His commandments not to earn salvation, but to strengthen our faith to continue receiving His grace.

We belong to Jesus through faith; but not “mere-faith”, but by the faith that truly unites with Him, faith which produces good works (James2:17-18, Matt7:16-18).

And our faith is “beginning faith to ending faith; the righteous shall live BY faith”. Rom1:16-17. Therefore, “build yourselves in holy faith (and KEEP YOURSELVES in His love)” (Jude20-21), “as you have received Christ so walk IN Him guarding against deception” (Col2:6-8), and “take care lest one of you be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God” (Heb3:12-14), and literally dozens of others.

Why make such effort to keep doctrines like Reformed Theology, when it’s easier to just believe what Scripture says?

 

[jcrichton]

Two thousand years later, some people think “it was a myth”. But there is more documentation and credibility than with any other written record.

There are nearly 5000 copies surviving time, some datable to within 50 years of Christ. That those copies were not trashed at FIRST is significant – they claim “thousands of people saw resurrected-Jesus”, had that been untrue they never would have allowed the texts to stand.

Paul said His resurrection is proof to all. I perceive that God does not want our faith to be based on miracles; so one “raising from the dead today” would be such theatrics, and He’d rather be known through what He has made and the written record of Jesus…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Jesus said it to St. Thomas, ‘blessed are they that Believe, without seeing.’

Faith based on the infused spirituality is greater proof that man Believes God than professing Faith because of an experience–relying on the Holy Spirit rather than on “show me.”

Interesting. Ever see the “social pressure” skits on Candid Camera? They would have an elevator car filled (and a newcomer/victim enter), then everyone in the car would turn and face the side wall. The victim would turn to. Then they’d all face the back, and the victim would face the back too. “Social pressure”.

No; but I’ve done the ‘look into the sky’ bit–both in NY and NJ, in crowded environments… and people have started to see things… I stopped because it can turn dangerous as pedestrians walk into the street while searching for that invisible monkey… the power of suggestion and people’s gullibility run together… comedians, magicians, and actors/actresses depend on it (as charlatans and scam artists)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

'Zactly. While a leopard cannot change its spots, nor can an Ethiopian change his skin, what makes us as unchangeable AS leopard-spots OR Ethiopian-skin, is entrenchment in sin. You’re right, the last verse cannot ever fit “it’s beyond your control”.

Goodness — how many times must it say “It’s not too far NOR TOO DIFFICULT”, before we are forced to believe it?


That is what Deut30:11-20 (linked as it is with Rom10:6-10!), Acts17:26-31, and many others say; they are blatant and absolute, non-negotiable.

But “doctrines die hard”, denial is not just a river in Egypt. :egyptian:
(I’m sorry, I love that Egypt-guy!)

To whom is Paul talking with “if you CLEANSE YOURSELVES from these things, then you will be an honor vessel useful to the Master”, and John (citing Jesus) “blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life”?

2Tim2:21, Rev22:14

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think that part of the problem RT has is that it removes God from the arena… true man is devoid of holiness and cannot ever move himself towards God… yet, God’s Grace not only Calls man but also Compels man to seek Unity with God.

It is St. Paul’s argument… wretched am I (every man) but thanks God for Jesus Christ!:

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body doomed to death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! In short, it is I who with my reason serve the Law of God, and no less I who serve in my unspiritual self the law of sin’.

8:1 The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, 2 is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature,*a] was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin. 4 He did this in order that the Law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates. 5 The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. 6 It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual; life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual. 7 That is because to limit oneself to what is unspiritual is to be at enmity with God: such a limitation never could and never does submit to God’s law. 8 People who are interested only in unspiritual things can never be pleasing to God. 9 Your interests, however, are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made his home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to him. 10 Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; 11 and if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then he who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your own mortal bodies through his Spirit living in you. 12 So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. 13 If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live

. (Romans 7:24 thru 8:13)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Jesus said it to St. Thomas, ‘blessed are they that Believe, without seeing.’

Excellent – I love that verse, "unseen belief is better than seen belief!"

Oh – now pair that with John10:38, “you can believe BECAUSE OF seeing”. And Matt11:21-24 — Jesus blasted people from three entire cities for having SEEN His miracles, but still refusing to believe. “If Tyre, Sidon, or EVEN SODOM had seen the things YOU have seen, they would have believed!”

Try getting an RT to explain any of these verses!

Ya’ can’t; ya’ just can’t. Not no way not no how…

Faith based on the infused spirituality is greater proof that man Believes God than professing Faith because of an experience–relying on the Holy Spirit rather than on “show me.”

“Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.”

Two quotes from one of my favorite movies (“Polar Express”) – the ghost said:
“Seeing is believing, am I right?”

But then the conductor said:
“Seeing is believing; but SOME-times the most real things in life are the things you cannot see!”

No; but I’ve done the ‘look into the sky’ bit–both in NY and NJ, in crowded environments… and people have started to see things… I stopped because it can turn dangerous as pedestrians walk into the street while searching for that invisible monkey… the power of suggestion and people’s gullibility run together… comedians, magicians, and actors/actresses depend on it (as charlatans and scam artists)!

“Searching for an invisible monkey”. Sounds like a candidate for the darwin awards.

…of course, perhaps the wildest candidate for “darwin awards”, was the guy who strapped a military RATO (rocket assisted takeoff) to the top of a Chevy Impala; at first they thought it was a PLANE crash halfway up the mountain!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think that part of the problem RT has is that it removes God from the arena… true man is devoid of holiness and cannot ever move himself towards God… yet, God’s Grace not only Calls man but also Compels man to seek Unity with God.

Meaning no disrespect (don’tchya’ hate loaded intro’s like that!) — many RT’s with whom I have discoursed do not seem to truly be walking with Jesus; they don’t have His kindness, gentleness, and love. Not all, there are many who do. But to “isolate” Jesus from the adopted, does not embody verses like Gal2:20.

…or Matt7:16-18, Gal5:22-22-26, etcetera…

It is St. Paul’s argument… wretched am I (every man) but thanks God for Jesus Christ!: (citation Romans 7:24 thru 8:13)

Romans 7 forms one of them “sandwiches”; it cannot separate from chapters 6 and 8. You eloquently cited chapter eight, the SOLUTION to the problem of chapter seven.

You’re exactly right; we’re s’posed to live in chapter EIGHT, not chapter SEVEN. Those in ch7 are really “antinomianists” (Gnosticists), and are not saved.

Pity, is that many THINK they are; they will run to Jesus as in Matt7:21-23, and He’ll turn them away.

Next time you hear someone say the words, “backslidden-but-saved”, ask them what are their thoughts on 1Jn3:5-10? Gal5:19-21? 1Cor6:9-11 or Eph5:5-6?

Exactly where in Scripture is the “GET OUTTA JAIL FREE” card? I’ve never seen it!!!

npatrol:

 

[jcrichton]

Excellent – I love that verse, "unseen belief is better than seen belief!"

Oh – now pair that with John10:38, “you can believe BECAUSE OF seeing”. And Matt11:21-24 — Jesus blasted people from three entire cities for having SEEN His miracles, but still refusing to believe. “If Tyre, Sidon, or EVEN SODOM had seen the things YOU have seen, they would have believed!”

Try getting an RT to explain any of these verses!

Ya’ can’t; ya’ just can’t. Not no way not no how…

“Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.”

Two quotes from one of my favorite movies (“Polar Express”) – the ghost said:
“Seeing is believing, am I right?”

But then the conductor said:
“Seeing is believing; but SOME-times the most real things in life are the things you cannot see!”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It’s the quality that God looks in man–remember Abraham’s… he was Promised that would be a father of many nations… as numerous as the stars in the sky (post Hobble Telescope ); when he and Sarah took it upon themselves to “make it happen,” their efforts were rejected… and once Given the seed (Isaac) it was demanded of him (Abraham) to offer Isaac as a sacrifice (to set up the type for Jesus)… Abraham did not see the Promise but Believed that God could return Isaac to Life in order to Fulfill His Promise!

Sadly, just because man experiences through the temporal senses the wonders of Creation and of God… it does not always filter in… have you noticed how the very young seem to be in tuned with God’s Majesty… how they discover the “awe” effect in nature and in the laws built into our temporal existence? …what of the infants in their cribs that seem to be communicating with the extra terrestrial (God, the angels)… how they giggle and smile and sound off in a language that we cannot understand?

This Beauty is lost to us as we become hard, cold, and callused as we are immersed in the relative notion of existence: ‘I will not believe unless…’

“Searching for an invisible monkey”. Sounds like a candidate for the darwin awards.

…of course, perhaps the wildest candidate for “darwin awards”, was the guy who strapped a military RATO (rocket assisted takeoff) to the top of a Chevy Impala; at first they thought it was a PLANE crash halfway up the mountain!


…I call it an invisible monkey because they would actually point to “nothing” and guide others to where “nothing” is… the thing is that they must be seeing something since I seem to be (now pass that down); I think that some do wake up to the fact that they have been fooled… but not wanting to seem the fool it becomes the pyramid effect–sucker someone else in; now what you’ve described is the jackass effect–idiots performing dangerous stunts to show that they ‘got what it takes;’ yeah, the simple minds that are easily swayed to hurl themselves into a precarious and possible fatal end. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

…as they used to say, an idle mind (or was it hands) is the devil’s playground.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Meaning no disrespect (don’tchya’ hate loaded intro’s like that!) — many RT’s with whom I have discoursed do not seem to truly be walking with Jesus; they don’t have His kindness, gentleness, and love. Not all, there are many who do. But to “isolate” Jesus from the adopted, does not embody verses like Gal2:20.

…or Matt7:16-18, Gal5:22-22-26, etcetera…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, but at times it is necessary; I think it takes away some of the built-in friction that contesting events/words bring forth… we may see things clear in our minds and want to work them in without ill-feelings but the hearer/reader may translate the issue as an assault/dismissive/contention… and temperatures flare…

I understand what you are stating… I’ve experienced some “somewhat” friendlies that soon turn sour and even tough… yeah, they miss altogether the meaning of 1 St. Peter’s 3:15’s “gentleness and respect” (Christ’s Love).

Romans 7 forms one of them “sandwiches”; it cannot separate from chapters 6 and 8. You eloquently cited chapter eight, the SOLUTION to the problem of chapter seven.

You’re exactly right; we’re s’posed to live in chapter EIGHT, not chapter SEVEN. Those in ch7 are really “antinomianists” (Gnosticists), and are not saved.

Pity, is that many THINK they are; they will run to Jesus as in Matt7:21-23, and He’ll turn them away.

Next time you hear someone say the words, “backslidden-but-saved”, ask them what are their thoughts on 1Jn3:5-10? Gal5:19-21? 1Cor6:9-11 or Eph5:5-6?

Exactly where in Scripture is the “GET OUTTA JAIL FREE” card? I’ve never seen it!!!

npatrol:
…and this is why we are Commanded to Abide in Him so that He may Abide in us (St. John 15:1-10–yeah, I can’t let go of this one! :blushing::blushing::blushing.

I don’t mean to be sounding the doom trumpet… but I think you will have to get working on your next book… I keep hearing this “universal salvation” thing… it seems that it’s better to believe that all will be saved than to Believe the Word of God or even Christ Himself when He demands that man Abide in Him!

It is disobedience for the sake of the lost–‘God must save everyone or we just wont go!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It’s the quality that God looks in man–remember Abraham’s… he was Promised that would be a father of many nations… as numerous as the stars in the sky (post Hobble Telescope ); when he and Sarah took it upon themselves to “make it happen,” their efforts were rejected… and once Given the seed (Isaac) it was demanded of him (Abraham) to offer Isaac as a sacrifice (to set up the type for Jesus)… Abraham did not see the Promise but Believed that God could return Isaac to Life in order to Fulfill His Promise!

Ironic that their lack-of-faith gave rise to Mohamed’s line. And terrorism, sharia, etcetera…

Sadly, just because man experiences through the temporal senses the wonders of Creation and of God… it does not always filter in… have you noticed how the very young seem to be in tuned with God’s Majesty… how they discover the “awe” effect in nature and in the laws built into our temporal existence?

So did Jesus – He said “unless you become turned as one of these children, you shall not enter the kingdom…”

Children believe simply and unreservedly; so should we…

…what of the infants in their cribs that seem to be communicating with the extra terrestrial (God, the angels)… how they giggle and smile and sound off in a language that we cannot understand?

Oh dear — they’re speaking in TONGUES??? :bigyikes:

This Beauty is lost to us as we become hard, cold, and callused as we are immersed in the relative notion of existence: ‘I will not believe unless…’

Thank you, Thomas…

…I call it an invisible monkey because they would actually point to “nothing” and guide others to where “nothing” is… the thing is that they must be seeing something since I seem to be (now pass that down);

One of the most impressive sci-fi stories I ever read, was “Plus X”. When captured and imprisoned on an alien planet, why try to escape from prison (and then how would you get off the planet even if you did) — when you could out-psych your captors, freaking them out enough to PUT you on a ship home!

(It’s all about “invisible assistants” and convincing your captors they’re real!)

I think that some do wake up to the fact that they have been fooled… but not wanting to seem the fool it becomes the pyramid effect–sucker someone else in; now what you’ve described is the jackass effect–idiots performing dangerous stunts to show that they ‘got what it takes;’ yeah, the simple minds that are easily swayed to hurl themselves into a precarious and possible fatal end.

The thing is, God has provided all we need to believe in Him and love Him. Acts17 says Jesus’ resurrection is proof to all men; Rom1 says Jesus can be known through what He has made (they have no excuse!).

And – Scripture has more than enough solid teachings that transcend “interpetations” so that clear doctrine can be learned.

…as they used to say, an idle mind (or was it hands) is the devil’s playground.

Hands, mind, tomato tomahto…

It’s all what we decide to love and pursue…

 

[jcrichton]

Ironic that their lack-of-faith gave rise to Mohamed’s line. And terrorism, sharia, etcetera…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…just my twos… they had survived decades without a child… why not wait?

…we keep running to the wrong designations–‘I got this!’

So did Jesus – He said "unless you become turned as one of these children

, you shall not enter the kingdom…"

Children believe simply and unreservedly; so should we…
…it is the old Trust in God (no not the superficial dollar thing).

Oh dear — they’re speaking in TONGUES

??? :bigyikes:
Have you considered it? Sneak up on the crib… they are joyous, vociferous, and quite energetic… there also seems to be the customary silences that allows for the other person to speak… so yeah, they are speaking in tongues!

One of the most impressive sci-fi stories I ever read, was “Plus X”. When captured and imprisoned on an alien planet, why try to escape from prison (and then how would you get off the planet even if you did) — when you could out-psych your captors, freaking them out enough to PUT you on a ship home!

(It’s all about “invisible assistants” and convincing your captors they’re real!)

The thing is, God has provided all we need to believe in Him and love Him. Acts17 says Jesus’ resurrection is proof to all men; Rom1 says Jesus can be known through what He has made

(they have no excuse!).

And – Scripture has more than enough solid teachings that transcend “interpetations” so that clear doctrine can be learned.

Hands, mind, tomato tomahto…

It’s all what we decide to love and pursue…
Your final statement seals it!

This is exactly what it is all about; what is man willing to love and pursue?

My crib observations, while not scientific and done years ago when I was a youngster, demonstrate that we are engaged beyond what science and technology is able to understand. Yet, as crude and as unscientific as they were, my observations prove that our minds are engaged even before the “reason” tenets.

We know from Sacred Scriptures that St. John the Baptist was but six months of age when he recognized and celebrated his Lord; in deed… God makes Himself Known to man through the Holy Spirit; yet, man refuses to accept God’s Revelation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, but at times it is necessary;

What is “necessary”?

I think it takes away some of the built-in friction that contesting events/words bring forth… we may see things clear in our minds and want to work them in without ill-feelings but the hearer/reader may translate the issue as an assault/dismissive/contention… and temperatures flare…

I understand what you are stating… I’ve experienced some “somewhat” friendlies that soon turn sour and even tough… yeah, they miss altogether the meaning of 1 St. Peter’s 3:15’s “gentleness and respect” (Christ’s Love).

Set-apart Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame." 1Pet3:15-16

Again nicely quoted.

Jesus said, “you will know them by their fruits.” A person who turns sour/tough, is not showing fruits commensurate with knowing Jesus – is he?

…and this is why we are Commanded to Abide in Him so that He may Abide in us (St. John 15:1-10–yeah, I can’t let go of this one!

They just rewrite that. “If anyone has NEVER abide in Him, he of COURSE is (already!) cut off and will be burned!”

I still will never understand how anyone views God as writing some great screenplay, most men are SCRIPTED to be evil and to burn, a few luck stiffs are scripted to be righteous (although God made sure they were NOT repentant/righteous for much of their lives, until He ordained them to believe and be saved!)

Who is sitting in the theater watching the play?

I don’t mean to be sounding the doom trumpet… but I think you will have to get working on your next book… I keep hearing this “universal salvation” thing… it seems that it’s better to believe that all will be saved than to Believe the Word of God or even Christ Himself when He demands that man Abide in Him!

Carlton Pearson (formerly “Higher Dimensions”) lost his church when he “discovered” Universalism. I took notes from his lecture, writing down the verses he cited. That section in my book addresses all popular verses, only leaving two verses unexplained (no one knows what Peter meant!). But plenty of other verses clearly teach that there is no post-mortem redemption.

It is disobedience for the sake of the lost–‘God must save everyone or we just wont go!’

The last addition to my book is a short discussion on Paganism and other cults. Many people approach religion backwards — they decide what they want (hedonism, sensuality, self-gratification lead to religions like Paganism), and they they find religions that fit. OR they take pieces from several religions and paste together a hodge-podge that tickles itching ears.

We should instead approach religion forwards – view the evidence, and let the evidence lead to our faith.

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” Rom1:19

The Bible is also very credible; 5000 copies survive time, some datable to within 50 years of Jesus. It is an accurate record of Jesus’ words and events. Scripture is credible, science is credible (archeology does NOT support Evolution), everywhere we turn “the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament displays His handiwork”. This is really our whole discussion; if we approach things FORWARDS, we simply will not tolerate views such as Reformed Theology.

(Sigh.)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…just my twos… they had survived decades without a child… why not wait?

Impatience???

…we keep running to the wrong designations–‘I got this!’

Oh you’re not saying “EGO was involved”???

…it is the old Trust in God (no not the superficial dollar thing).

"In God we trust…
…all others pay cash…"

Have you considered it? Sneak up on the crib… they are joyous, vociferous, and quite energetic… there also seems to be the customary silences that allows for the other person to speak… so yeah, they are speaking in tongues!

Okay, which kid has the GIFT of INTERPRETATION???
:doh2:

Your final statement seals it!

This is exactly what it is all about; what is man willing to love and pursue?

My crib observations, while not scientific and done years ago when I was a youngster, demonstrate that we are engaged beyond what science and technology is able to understand.

In my book I talk about a fish in his watery world; he sees all these stalks — if he could but poke his head up into a higher realm, he would see all those stalks are connected into a single tree. So too do we fail to recognize spiritual causes, because we are unwilling to ponder a spiritual realm.

Ever discuss the subject of “homosexuality”? There is a cure (Paul calls it “curable” in 1Cor6:9-11!). In the book by Tim LaHaye, he lists a “twelve-step cure”. Step #1 “receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”; #2 is “walk in the Spirit putting to death the flesh”.

Many people refuse to believe they have “something needing to be cured”; previous post I suggested we “approach religion FORWARDS, not backwards”— first prove the evidence overwhelmingly supports a real God, then acknowledge that GOD gets to call what He wants “right” or “wrong”.

(…and the secret of Christianity is that we do not beat ourselves into acceptability for God, HE is our cleansing, healing, and changing!)

Yet, as crude and as unscientific as they were, my observations prove that our minds are engaged even before the “reason” tenets.

We know from Sacred Scriptures that St. John the Baptist was but six months of age when he recognized and celebrated his Lord; in deed… God makes Himself Known to man through the Holy Spirit; yet, man refuses to accept God’s Revelation.

So do; others make the decision to love Him.

…love, in any direction, is a decision…

 

[jcrichton]

What is “necessary”?

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…the preamble, ‘…don’t mean to…’

Set-apart Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame." 1Pet3:15-16

Again nicely quoted.

Jesus said, “you will know them by their fruits.” A person who turns sour/tough, is not showing fruits commensurate with knowing Jesus – is he?
This is precisely what they forget; it is not about winning but about being alter Christus; we are to represent Christ as ambassadors not as storm troopers!

They just rewrite that. “If anyone has NEVER abide in Him, he of COURSE is (already!) cut off and will be burned!”

I still will never understand how anyone views God as writing some great screenplay, most men are SCRIPTED to be evil and to burn, a few luck stiffs are scripted to be righteous (although God made sure they were NOT repentant/righteous for much of their lives, until He ordained them to believe and be saved!)

Who is sitting in the theater watching the play?

The thing is that man cannot rescript the Word of God:

16 He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture – a fatal thing for them to do.

(2 St. Peter 3:16)

Carlton Pearson (formerly “Higher Dimensions”) lost his church when he “discovered” Universalism. I took notes from his lecture, writing down the verses he cited. That section in my book addresses all popular verses, only leaving two verses unexplained (no one knows what Peter meant!). But plenty of other verses clearly teach that there is no post-mortem redemption.

I do not know of these have the same origins… I think that it is some sort of confused Catholic understanding meshed with hollowood’s spirituality, and the resurfacing of universalism–even Satan is “safe” with this utopian salvation.

The last addition to my book is a short discussion on Paganism and other cults. Many people approach religion backwards — they decide what they want

(hedonism, sensuality, self-gratification lead to religions like Paganism), and they they find religions that fit. OR they take pieces from several religions and paste together a hodge-podge that tickles itching ears.

We should instead approach religion forwards – view the evidence, and let the evidence lead to our faith.

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” Rom1:19
Yes, onwards! Even science continues to prove the Created Universe as tech and math unfold the hidden realities of God.

The Bible is also very credible; 5000 copies survive time, some datable to within 50 years of Jesus. It is an accurate record of Jesus’ words and events. Scripture is credible, science is credible (archeology does NOT support Evolution), everywhere we turn “the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament displays His handiwork”. This is really our whole discussion; if we approach things FORWARDS, we simply will not tolerate views such as Reformed Theology.

Wow, I did not know this fact–have there been any attempts to scan these into virtual world? I would love to read that very first Bible.

…as for RT and the various theologies… it is difficult to remove from man his desire to go his own way… just take a toddler outside (after he/she has lost that fear of the unknown) he/she will run a quickly as possible from your grasp–with the devil-may-care attitude!

The best we can do is provide enough Love, encouragement, and guidance so that as many as would be possible seek to Know the Truth and Abide in the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In my book I talk about a fish in his watery world; he sees all these stalks — if he could but poke his head up into a higher realm, he would see all those stalks are connected into a single tree. So too do we fail to recognize spiritual causes, because we are unwilling to ponder a spiritual realm.

Ever discuss the subject of “homosexuality”? There is a cure (Paul calls it “curable” in 1Cor6:9-11!). In the book by Tim LaHaye, he lists a “twelve-step cure”. Step #1 “receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”; #2 is “walk in the Spirit putting to death the flesh”.

Many people refuse to believe they have “something needing to be cured”; previous post I suggested we “approach religion FORWARDS, not backwards”— first prove the evidence overwhelmingly supports a real God, then acknowledge that GOD gets to call what He wants “right” or “wrong”.

(…and the secret of Christianity is that we do not beat ourselves into acceptability for God, HE is our cleansing, healing, and changing!)

So do; others make the decision to love Him.

…love, in any direction, is a decision…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think that it boils down to disobedience:

16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son. 19 On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed; 21 but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light, so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in God;’

(St. John 3:16-21)
The second that anyone’s behavior is challenged that person refuses to engage; that’s why hollowood’s spirituality is so persuasive… ‘don’t judge’ and ‘believe’ (believe in yourself and anything but Yahweh God) and ‘do you.’

Love is accepted, but not the Biblical Love–that requires submitting to and Obeying God; love in the sense that no one is to judge, you can do whatever you want with whatever you want, and, because you believe it is so, it is! (…sounds like a lot of theologies out there, don’t it?)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

This is precisely what they forget; it is not about winning but about being alter Christus; we are to represent Christ as ambassadors not as storm troopers!

The difference, is who occupies their personal thrones. If THEY remain enthroned, then Jesus and God and the Spirit are viewed only as helps as needed. But you and I know “we are (to be!) crucified with Christ, no longer us who live but Christ lives in us; and our lives we now live by He who loved us and died for us…” (Gal2:20)

The thing is that man cannot rescript the Word of God:

Oh sure they can; it’s up to us to confront them with the failures of their rescripting.

(Remember people like Jehovah’s Witnesses actually add new words to their copies!)

I do not know of these have the same origins… I think that it is some sort of confused Catholic understanding meshed with hollowood’s spirituality, and the resurfacing of universalism–even satan is “safe” with this utopian salvation.

Universalism makes Jesus’ death redundant, as a second redemption is embraced. It makes useless living righteously ("he who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous, he who does not practice righteousness does not know God"). It disempowers the Gospel and soothes itching ears with “You won’t really die!”

…just as satan told Eve in the Garden…

Yes, onwards! Even science continues to prove the Created Universe as tech and math unfold the hidden realities of God.

The more we learn about science, the more it looks like God is real.

Wow, I did not know this fact–have there been any attempts to scan these into virtual world? I would love to read that very first Bible.

I understand there were some NT pages found with the Dead Sea Scrolls; I would think that older scripts are available.

…as for RT and the various theologies… it is difficult to remove from man his desire to go his own way… just take a toddler outside (after he/she has lost that fear of the unknown) he/she will run a quickly as possible from your grasp–with the devil-may-care attitude!

I put forth the idea of “approaching religion FORWARDS, rather than BACKWARDS” – that if we decide what we want first (hedonism, sensuality, self-gratification as Paganism and others offer), we then search out religious doctrines that fit. That is the way believes like Reformed Theology work.

But if we go FORWARDS, beginning with the reality of God (and therefore a real God gets to make the rules!), we then approach God on HIS terms, not ours.

Some religions are also “smorgasbord”; they pick bits and pieces from other religions, and kluge together a hodge-podge miss-mash that is easily changed later if ears need to be tickled in any new direction.

It occurred to me what is actually happening in “backwards religions”, is man inside keeping HIMSELF on his throne, in fact elevating himself to the same position as God!

The best we can do is provide enough Love, encouragement, and guidance so that as many as would be possible seek to Know the Truth and Abide in the Truth.

“Guidance” – in that, embodying Titus1:9:

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Note well that is only possible if there are things written by the Apostles that are clear, and not open to “private interpretation”. You and I agree on “authority of Scriptures”; that is a Catholic principle. Here you and I (and everyone else here) agree. Perhaps some things in places like Revelation are not meant to be understood until a later time; but when Scripture says things like “Those who do these things SHALL NOT INHERIT”, that is absolute, not negotiable, not “open to private interpretation”, nor any interpretation at all. It says what it says, “do not be deceived beloved brethren; the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.”

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think that it boils down to disobedience:

The second that anyone’s behavior is challenged that person refuses to engage; that’s why hollowood’s spirituality is so persuasive… ‘don’t judge’ and ‘believe’ (believe in yourself and anything but Yahweh God) and ‘do you.’

Love is accepted, but not the Biblical Love–that requires submitting to and Obeying God; love in the sense that no one is to judge, you can do whatever you want with whatever you want, and, because you believe it is so, it is! (…sounds like a lot of theologies out there, don’t it?)

But it’s not — it’s only two, "serve God, or DO AS THOU WILT".

The command to love God is also to surrender self; when we love Him with all our heart mind and soul, there is no more room for our selves on our personal thrones. That’s why I keep coming back to Gal2:20:

“I have been crucified with Christ—it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.”

Are we really crucified to self and sin? Completely submitted to Him? Or are we still addicted to ourselves and our sin and hurling ourselves towards an eternity apart from Him?

To be “Christian”, is to truly fall in love with the persons of God; and to be united, body soul and spirit. It’s an “all in”, or “not”, proposition…

 

[jcrichton]

The difference, is who occupies their personal thrones. If THEY remain enthroned, then Jesus and God and the Spirit are viewed only as helps as needed. But you and I know “we are (to be!) crucified with Christ, no longer us who live but Christ lives in us; and our lives we now live by He who loved us and died for us…” (Gal2:20)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

I think that this is why so many find Jesus’s, ‘if you don’t hate father, mother, wife, children, self… you cannot be my Disciples!’ so difficult to accept.

Jesus is actually rewording the 1st Commandment: ‘Love, Yahweh God, with all your heart, might… above all.’

We cannot truly Love God if we place ourselves as gods in our hearts, minds, and lives!

Oh sure they can; it’s up to us to confront them with the failures of their rescripting.

(Remember people like Jehovah’s Witnesses actually add new words to their copies!)

Well, the fact that we can physically make changes does not change the Word of God; that is why man fails… he may be the blind who leads the blind… but he will not bend the Word of God to his will; both the blind leader and the blind followers fall short of God’s Word; hence, they will all perish (well are on the path to perdition, only God Knows if some would wake up to the Truth: Jesus).

Universalism makes Jesus’ death redundant, as a second

redemption is embraced. It makes useless living righteously ("he who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous, he who does not practice righteousness does not know God"). It disempowers the Gospel and soothes itching ears with “You won’t really die!”

…just as satan told Eve in the Garden…
It is because man wants to both sink his teeth in the forbidden fruit and maintain his “eternal security” that such theologies as RT/OSAS/Universalism have surfaced and continue to lead the disobedient and incredulous to faux-salvation.

I put forth the idea of “approaching religion FORWARDS, rather than BACKWARDS” – that if we decide what we want first (hedonism, sensuality, self-gratification as Paganism and others offer), we then search out religious doctrines that fit. That is the way believes like Reformed Theology work.

But if we go FORWARDS, beginning with the reality of God (and therefore a real God gets to make the rules!), we then approach God on HIS terms

, not ours.

Some religions are also “smorgasbord”; they pick bits and pieces from other religions, and kluge together a hodge-podge miss-mash that is easily changed later if ears need to be tickled in any new direction.

It occurred to me what is actually happening in “backwards religions”, is man inside keeping HIMSELF on his throne, in fact elevating himself to the same position as God!
Some time ago I saw a program (20/20-like) where this “oriental” religion (quite ornate and lively) incorporated all sorts of themes from religions the world over; their tenets was that there’s good in all religions that seek God… I’m not sure, but I think that soon after that that neo-universalism thing took hold–at least in the subculture (hollowood).

Now we have everyone from atheists to “orthodox” preaching/believing that all will be saved–some hold that even Satan is “safe.”

…and you don’t have to go far–this is being discussed right on this site.

“Guidance” – in that, embodying Titus1:9:

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Note well that is only possible if there are things written by the Apostles that are clear, and not open to “private interpretation”. You and I agree on “authority of Scriptures”; that is a Catholic principle. Here you and I (and everyone else here) agree. Perhaps some things in places like Revelation are not meant to be understood until a later time; but when Scripture says things like “Those who do these things SHALL NOT INHERIT”, that is absolute, not negotiable, not “open to private interpretation”, nor any interpretation at all. It says what it says, “do not be deceived beloved brethren; the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.”
Correct. There are things that are exceedingly clear:

21:8 But the legacy for cowards, for those who break their word, or worship obscenities, for murderers and fornicators, and for fortune-tellers, idolaters or any other sort of liars, is the second death in the burning lake of sulphur.’

22:14 Happy are those who will have washed their robes clean, so that they will have the right to feed on the tree of life and can come through the gates into the city. 15 These others must stay outside: dogs, fortune-tellers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and everyone of false speech and false life.’

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 21:8, 22:14-15)
Yet, man’s immaturity and temerity causes him to believe the tales he spins rather than God’s Revelation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But it’s not — it’s only two, "serve God, or DO AS THOU WILT".

Hi, Gadgeteer!

The choice has been demarked (Deuteronomy 30:19); we are to choose Life in order to Live!

The command to love God is also to surrender self; when we love Him with all our heart mind and soul, there is no more room for our selves on our personal thrones.

That’s why I keep coming back to Gal2:20:

“I have been crucified with Christ—it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.”

Are we really crucified to self and sin? Completely submitted to Him? Or are we still addicted to ourselves and our sin and hurling ourselves towards an eternity apart from Him?

To be “Christian”, is to truly fall in love with the persons of God; and to be united, body soul and spirit. It’s an “all in”, or “not”, proposition…
What is interesting about both of these Teachings is that they are exacting and congruent: if we Love God above all we place everything as secondary; if we have been crucified with Christ we have to place God’s Will above our own–everything becomes subject to Christ; hence, everything is secondary.

Since what God Wills is that we Be Holy, everything that leads us away from God must remain outside of our Christian practice; hence, it is Christ who must Live in us!

Maran atha!

Angel