Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

I think that all Catholics, with the exception of poorly instructed ones, hold that Sacred Scriptures are the Word of God (infallible Teaching).

This is our agreement. If you come to me asking “have you considered such-n-such verse”, it forces me to examine what they wrote. I hope to encourage others to do the same. But most people (regardless of affiliation) will only skim posts, and won’t even look up the verses. I’ve pulled things like quoting from Jude chapter three; expecting someone to say, “You idiot, it’s barely one chapter!” (Disappointing when no one catches it!)

I’ve been running afoul of the “6000 character count” here; but I’ve been trying to actually quote the verses…

The two most important are found in: Galatians 2:11-21 and Acts 15:36-41. I am simply noting that issues did arise in the early Church but error was not taught as Doctrine nor was dissention allowed to fester…

I thought you meant “errors in the actual Scripture” – like Atheists try to delegitimize the Bible by pointing out errors. Why is Jesus’ lineology different between Matthew, and Luke?

…I was alluding to Galatians 2–had Cephas allowed ego to take power he could have ignored the problem that was arising… his silence could have caused division in the Body; instead, St. Peter allowed the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit to Silence the anti-Paul movement that was developing.

The Body of Christ is Divine, the members of the Body are susceptible to error.

Right.

Exactly what I’ve attempted to point out.

Now, notice how Scriptures handle issues of error and contentions… they do not point to deep Scriptural observation/study but to the Church:

Acts 15:1-35:

…interestingly enough, not a call to Scriptures as the Authority but to the Church–(tangent: and Scriptures attest that past John the Baptist there are Christian prophets).

The presumption that the Church is following Scripture. Not knowing the Scripture puts one at risk of being led astray; most who have converted to Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses could not detect the deviation, because they did not know the truth. They had been in a church that did not teach sufficiently…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I’ve not advanced much in the interaction with other religious groups (past their initial attempts at proselytizing); seems I’m not quite open to Christ’s “teachings”… but I have been engaged enough with the “feeling” theologies…

After several groups literally running away, I found an approach that works. Point at the “Bible” they carry (New World Translation, modified to fit their religion!)

“You carry that around; do you believe it?” (Yes!)
“Do you follow it?” (Yes!!)
“May I show you something in there?”

And they can’t run away, they have to let you look.

Revelation1:8 – " ‘I am the Alpha and Omega …Jehovah, the Almighty.’ Who is the Alpha and Omega?"

(God!)

“Right. Now let’s look in Revelation 22 – ‘I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last …I JESUS have sent My angel to proclaim these things.’ Who is Jesus?”

(…uhmmmm…)

Watchtower is aware of these passages; they just pick up a can of spraypaint and paint Rev22:16 as “DIFFERENT SPEAKER”.

“I Jehovah-God am coming quickly ,too render to each according to his deeds.”
I God am the Alpha and Omega.
Blessed are those who wash their robes…
Outside are dogs and …immoral…
I JESUS (different speaker!) have sent My angel!"

Really? Okay, let’s go back one chapter: “I am the Alpha and Omega, I give the water of life…” (Rev21:6) Now John 4:14 JESUS gives the water of life! Who is Jesus?

It is also necessary to know that “arche” in Rev3:14 is “origin/source”, not “first-created-being”. And Col1:15 “first-born from the dead” is a title (Esau was born first, Jacob became the firstborn, same with Ephraim and Manasseh); and “firstborn from the dead” (Col1:18) means preeminence/authority even over death. And the verses where Jesus equated Himself with God, accepted worship (serious blasphemy if He wasn’t), had no beginning (Heb7:1-3), was called “God” (Heb1:8), and many others…

Ask them if they REALLY think John sat down and wrote “Jesus was a false god”?

…as for the Holy Spirit, St. Paul warns to not extinguish the Holy Spirit (1 Th 5:19), that is, to not void (claim unsound or reject) His Inspiration and Guidance.

We just have to be careful that we are being led by Him — it’s easy for us to get …misled…

A colleague was certain his fiance’ was a gift from God, “the Spirit tells me, too”.
…he divorced her a year later…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Again, I fully understand what you are saying… and I believe that your efforts are quite important in the Walk that we are Called to make. But, it’s been my experience that even when Scriptures are cited, most automatically default to their sect/denominational held understanding… ever dance the John 1:1 dance with Jehovah Witnesses? They refuse to engage past “Logos” and they hinder the Holy Spirit’s attempts to move them past their faith-base self-imposed limitations… ‘what?, how?, what?..’

Right – you have to prove Jesus is God (don’t believe US, believe the WITNESSES in Jn10:33 & 8:59). Read Jude9, Michael did not have as much authority as Jesus did.

I suspect Calvinists are not far from this steadfast holding to their faith-base understanding of God.

If you know the verses they use, and the refutations, they have no defense.

I think I have one of those invisible signs that pop only when necessary: “One Way Only”–much of my engagements don’t go past: ‘what church?’ “I’m Catholic!”

The merit of debating groups like Calvinists in a public forum, is that when they “go away” everyone else sees that they won’t (can’t!) answer the verses. They’ll get mad and claim “You’re never wrong, are you?!” Just gently take them back to the same refutation – “Of course I can be wrong; can you please show me in this context where I’m wrong?”

BTW, answer Acts13:48 with verse 46 — if the Jews UNELECTED THEMSELVES (“considered themselves unworthy”), how could two verses later Paul be saying “Gentiles were appointed by God”? Besides – the Greek for verse 48 supports “as many as inclined themselves to eternal life, believed”. See Robertson’s comment.

I fully concur. That is why Faith, Believe, and Salvation are so charged… they seem simple enough on their own… but they are intertwined with each other and each one bringing a full set of degrees and demands.

…this is part of “extinguishing” the Holy Spirit–one can ascribe to God evil while not realizing that that’s exactly what their belief/act is doing.

Take the “parable of the soils” (noooo, it’s parable of the plants!) in Luke8. If the soil-state is causal to perseverance, who made the soil good or bad? Only God could have. But guide them to Heb6:7-8, one tilled soil produces EITHER good fruit and is blessed, or thorns and is burned; so (12-14) we need diligence SO THAT we not imitate the sluggish BUT imitate those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.

Does a person choose whether to imitate “fruitful-plants-growing-on-good-soil”, or “withering-plants-on-bad-soil”? That is absolutely what Jesus and the rest taught.

Wow — another “THOSE WHO” verse…

Sadly, it is man’s propensity to be possessive and defensive… not so quick at accepting responsibility or owning up to being “wrong.”

There is something called “saving-face” — part of respecting each other, is not humiliating them; diplomacy is often gentle correction while allowing them to save face…

…so as soon as he is challenged with a different view (understanding) the antagonistic platform takes shape… it is as simple as vocabulary… I’ve witnessed people arguing for hours on the same side of an issue… due to their different interpretation of words…

Persistence, wrought with kindness and respect, eventually bears fruit. I imagine realizing that they cannot say for sure they are Fifteeners and not Thirteeners (Luke8:15, vs Luke 8:13), is shocking. How can one really think himself “saved” and even avoid sin, be joyful, but prove “unelectness” by falling at some point before dying? And how can someone WANT to be saved if they are “unelect/unregenerated”? Eventually these conflicts will snowball.

…at least we hope and pray they will…

 

[jcrichton]

“Baptism of intent” – this reminds me of when I conversed with a Seventh Day Adventist girl. They focus on things like “don’t eat meat”, and “you must observe the Sabbath on Saturday”. I asked about vocations like medical – are we to tell patients that they’re out of luck because we cannot take care of them on the Sabbath? She agreed that God would accept a person honoring Him on a different day. The key was “honoring God on a Sabbath”, her admission of circumstances requiring that honoring to be on a different day would be accepted, meant that we agreed “God accepts intent”. And there was no further reason to argue.

I left her with Col2:16 and following. “What does it say?” I said, “No, you have to read it for yourself.” It seems to have been written for those who focus on “submitting to things festivals, new moons, or a sabbath day – submitting themselves to decrees like ‘do not taste, do not touch’ – things which have appearance of spirituality, but are of no use against fleshly indulgence.”

What about the women around Corrie Tenboom? In a nazi prison, it was impossible for anyone to be waterbaptized; would God consider them any lest baptized? Absolutely not. Corrie led them all to Jesus, and they really were His.

Hi!

…part of the problem for the Jewish religious was their observance of the letter of the Law… Jesus denounced them as hypocrites because they observed the letter of the Law but did not account for God’s Mercy and Love… yes, God Commands a certain observance, but it must be within His Love and Mercy… if I take Scriptures to hit you over the head (‘oh you sinful man’) and do not bring you the Good News of Christ’s Sacrifice for your Redemption and Rescue… I’ve done nothing but judge myself “righteous” and blocked you from getting nearer to God (the Pharisee and the Publican).

“Mocking of Christ’s return” – that reminds me of the Pre-Trib Rapture view. Where Jesus sneaks back

secretly, to rescue His followers from tribulation (against Jn16:33). Wait – how many “Second Comings” does Jesus do? The angels in Acts1 said "He will return in exactly the same way He came" — it was public, and not secret. And it’s going to be noisy. Wouldn’t saying that Jesus is coming an additional time, not quite His “Second Coming” (maybe His 1-[sup]9[/sup]/[/sub]10[/sub] coming), secretly" — kinda’ mocking what Scripture says? :-/
…not only that but it is fully Universal:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him.

(Apocalypse 1:7a)
Jesus is not making pit stops or stopovers… but not only that but All will Witness the Parousia as even those who pierced Him will be cognizant of His Second Coming!

There are points of disagreement, as happens whenever any

people get together. But points like “salvation by sovereign decree” or “personal responsibility” can be established through the Apostles’ writings. I’ve debated a lot with Calvinists; when I present context as I’ve been doing on this board, most often they just stop responding.
…this goes back to my original statement… sadly, man is prone to defend what he holds as “mine” and “truth;” there’s always the civil attempt at “sharing” (ecumenism) as long as “sharing” means ‘I hold what is to be right and you will join me.’

…if they feel they have the upper hand they are quite willing to engage… when they discover that they do not… :juggle: :takeoff:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

this is our agreement. If you come to me asking “have you considered such-n-such verse”, it forces me to examine what they wrote. I hope to encourage others to do the same. But most people (regardless of affiliation) will only skim posts, and won’t even look up the verses. I’ve pulled things like quoting from jude chapter three; expecting someone to say, “you idiot, it’s barely one chapter!” (disappointing when no one catches it!)

Hi!

…sadly, this is very much the case, in many occasions… What about the vanishing OPs? They offer this “fervent” need to know the “truth” or “a friend” said and I need to know what the Church Teaches… (or the latest trend: “facebook…”)

I follow Jesus… it is not about quantity (wide is the gate and broad is the path that lead to perdition and many follow)… So if I am able to touch just one mind and heart (John the Baptist) and prepare the ground for the Holy Spirit… Well, Jesus tells us that there’s Great Joy in Heaven!

I’ve been running afoul of the “6000 character count” here; but i’ve been trying to actually quote the verses…

…yeah, it does limits… but perhaps it is a good thing… if we were to limit ourselves to one or two segments/topics… though it would limit the exchange, more could be presented within the limited interchange.

I thought you meant “errors in the actual scripture” – like atheists try to delegitimize the bible by pointing out errors. Why is jesus’ lineology different between matthew, and luke?

…it’s understandable… but being Catholic I hold to the inerrancy of Revelation… those who seek to find actual errors in Scriptures come with an absurdity of preconceptions that they do not apply to today’s (as in right now) news reports–I find that they watch a movie/program and they actually believe (and even emulate) what is depicted as though it is reality (correct/truth).

The presumption that the church is following scripture. Not knowing the scripture puts one at risk of being led astray; most who have converted to mormonism and jehovah’s witnesses could not detect the deviation, because they did not know the truth.

they had been in a church that did not teach sufficiently…
You are correct on the issue of presumption… but there’s much more going on though… have you noticed that their target of choice is often the lesser educated, and often enough the poorest?

It is my presumption that: they target people as a military agency would orchestrate a campaign: locate soft targets, divide and conquer, use insurgents… and flash and flood!

They also appeal to human needs (loneliness, financial stress, domestic preoccupations); in a few cases I’ve known of even the romantic persuasion approach to have been used.

…so as St. Paul would say, I am glad to find Believers as you, burning for the Faith, so as to enlist the jealousy of my Catholic Siblings hoping to awaken in them the Thirst and Love for the Sacred Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

After several groups literally running away, I found an approach that works. Point at the “Bible” they carry (New World Translation, modified to fit their religion!)

“You carry that around; do you believe it?” (Yes!)
“Do you follow it?” (Yes!!)
“May I show you something in there?”

And they can’t run away, they have to let you look.

Revelation1:8 – " ‘I am the Alpha and Omega …Jehovah, the Almighty.’ Who is the Alpha and Omega?"

(God!)

“Right. Now let’s look in Revelation 22 – ‘I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last …I JESUS have sent My angel to proclaim these things.’ Who is Jesus?”

(…uhmmmm…)

Watchtower is aware of these passages; they just pick up a can of spraypaint and paint Rev22:16 as “DIFFERENT SPEAKER”.

“I Jehovah-God am coming quickly ,too render to each according to his deeds.”
I God am the Alpha and Omega.
Blessed are those who wash their robes…
Outside are dogs and …immoral…
I JESUS (different speaker!) have sent My angel!"

Really? Okay, let’s go back one chapter: “I am the Alpha and Omega, I give the water of life…” (Rev21:6) Now John 4:14 JESUS gives the water of life! Who is Jesus?

It is also necessary to know that “arche” in Rev3:14 is “origin/source”, not “first-created-being”. And Col1:15 “first-born from the dead” is a title (Esau was born first, Jacob became the firstborn, same with Ephraim and Manasseh); and “firstborn from the dead” (Col1:18) means preeminence/authority even over death. And the verses where Jesus equated Himself with God, accepted worship (serious blasphemy if He wasn’t), had no beginning (Heb7:1-3), was called “God” (Heb1:8), and many others…

Ask them if they REALLY think John sat down and wrote “Jesus was a false god”?

Hi!

…if you only knew… I’ve have had revisits and third level “teachers” and “were Catholics” and…

…pacifist and joyful people have gone away from me fuming; telling me that I’m: “not teachable,” “too proud,” “not open to learn the truth,” “not ready to receive Jesus,” “too stubborn…” once I was even called “crazy.”

…there’s this disjointed theology (a cut and paste mishmash of Scriptures and interpretation of Scriptures), which has higher skill levels then a troop of the finest Chinese acrobats, that is being taught as the Word of God… in my experience, they come from many sources including the Jehovah Witnesses… a lot goes into their indoctrination… but I fear (as with a recent understanding of the 7 days) they are basically “trained” to not think beyond sect/denominational boundaries… I feel that, when they are engaged those outside their groups, they mentally plug their ears so as not to accept a contrasting thought…

…I pray that our encounters have helped them seek beyond their training… so that they may find themselves Believing in and Believing Jesus rather than the status quo.

…want to confound JWs… when they offer: 'well, that means that Jesus is the first Created…"

…counter… ‘ok, so if that’s what that means… how is the rest of Creation possible since He is the First and the Last?’ :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :juggle: :takeoff:

We just have to be careful that we are being led by Him — it’s easy for us to get …misled…

A colleague was certain his fiance’ was a gift from God, “the Spirit tells me, too”.
…he divorced her a year later…

I fully concur. I liken these to hollowoods spirituality… if the answer is what you want to hear/do, the Holy Spirit Spoke.

…much like the magic 8 ball… ask for what you want, shake it, and interpret according to your desires… if what is desired is not matched… change the language and shake, shake, shake, till the right response comes at you (much like the modern-day colonization of the world, eh?).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

It is also necessary to know that “arche” in Rev3:14 is “origin/source”, not “first-created-being”. And Col1:15 “first-born from the dead” is a title (Esau was born first, Jacob became the firstborn, same with Ephraim and Manasseh); and “firstborn from the dead” (Col1:18) means preeminence/authority even over death. And the verses where Jesus equated Himself with God, accepted worship (serious blasphemy if He wasn’t), had no beginning (Heb7:1-3), was called “God” (Heb1:8), and many others…

Oops

Me made boo-boo…

Of course Col1:15 “firstborn of ALL CREATION”. So inform them that does not mean “born first”, it is simply “preeminence” or “authority” over all creation. And that fits perfectly with verse 18, “firstborn from the dead” — preeminence even over death.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…part of the problem for the Jewish religious was their observance of the letter of the Law… Jesus denounced them as hypocrites because they observed the letter of the Law but did not account for God’s Mercy and Love… yes, God Commands a certain observance, but it must be within His Love and Mercy… if I take Scriptures to hit you over the head (‘oh you sinful man’) and do not bring you the Good News of Christ’s Sacrifice for your Redemption and Rescue… I’ve done nothing but judge myself “righteous” and blocked you from getting nearer to God (the Pharisee and the Publican).

You’re pretty wise.

…not only that but it is fully Universal:

But they don’t consider that His “Pre-Trib Appearance”, is a COMING. One of the strongest non-Pre-Trib passages, has to be 2Thess2:1-3. His coming and our gathering, is one event — they are joined by a simple conjunction, “AND” (kai).

Jesus is not making pit stops or stopovers… but not only that but All will Witness the Parousia as even those who pierced Him will be cognizant of His Second Coming!

“Parousia”, presence. Yes, He will return. Now — against Jerry Jenkins’ series “Leftbehind”, Jesus said His coming will be exactly the same as when Noah’s flood took and destroyed the wicked, and Lot’s fire destroyed the wicked; "FOR THEN there will be two men in a field and one taken and one left behind…"

Next time you see a bumper sticker “Don’t Be Leftbehind”, gently remind them that it is actually saying “be wicked”???

…this goes back to my original statement… sadly, man is prone to defend what he holds as “mine” and “truth;” there’s always the civil attempt at “sharing” (ecumenism) as long as “sharing” means ‘I hold what is to be right and you will join me.’

There has to be respect for differing views; really, there is one Savior, and it ain’t you or me or anyone posting here. What is it that wins the hearts of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or any other group? Love. Often John3:16 is thrown out, but verse 17 forgotten.

…if they feel they have the upper hand they are quite willing to engage… when they discover that they do not… :juggle: :takeoff:

The “upper hand” means that we are to “speak the truth in LOVE” (Eph4). The goal is to end up together with Jesus when He returns.

Never lose sight of the goal!

 

[jcrichton]

But they don’t consider that His “Pre-Trib Appearance”, is a COMING. One of the strongest non-Pre-Trib passages, has to be 2Thess2:1-3. His coming and our gathering, is one event — they are joined by a simple conjunction, “AND” (kai).

“Parousia”, presence. Yes, He will return. Now — against Jerry Jenkins’ series “Leftbehind”, Jesus said His coming will be exactly the same as when Noah’s flood took and destroyed the wicked, and Lot’s fire destroyed the wicked; "FOR THEN there will be two men in a field and one taken and one left behind…"

Next time you see a bumper sticker “Don’t Be Leftbehind”, gently remind them that it is actually saying “be wicked”???

Hi!

Scriptures tell us that the Event is Singular and Transcendent:

14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
One Event which encompasses all time and space (temporal and spiritual realms).

There has to be respect for differing views; really, there is one Savior, and it ain’t you or me or anyone posting here. What is it that wins the hearts of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or any other group? Love. Often John3:16 is thrown out, but verse 17 forgotten.

The “upper hand” means that we are to “speak the truth in LOVE” (Eph4). The goal is to end up together with Jesus when He returns.

Never lose sight of the goal!


…that is why it is so sad that the Body of Christ suffers from so many splinters… the two most precious Commands Christ gave us, Love and Unity, continue to evade us.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…sadly, this is very much the case, in many occasions… What about the vanishing OPs? They offer this “fervent” need to know the “truth” or “a friend” said and I need to know what the Church Teaches… (or the latest trend: “facebook…”)

I follow Jesus… it is not about quantity (wide is the gate and broad is the path that lead to perdition and many follow)…

That’s an excellent verse to use with Calvinists — “narrow is the gate that leads to salvation, and few are those who FIND BY SEEKING”. Heurisko absolutely means “find-by-seeking”! So much for “GOD decides everything”! (Or, "no one is able to seek unless God zaps you with regeneration and therefore salvation!)

Matt7:14. “Heurisko” is akin to what Archimedes shouted – climbing into a tub of water, he realized that the water spilling out of the tub was the exact same volume as his body! As the story goes, he ran down the street in the buff shouting, “Eureka! I found it!”

(Goodness, was he the very first streaker???)

So if I am able to touch just one mind and heart (John the Baptist) and prepare the ground for the Holy Spirit… Well, Jesus tells us that there’s Great Joy in Heaven!

There are those whose hearts truly know God; you are one of those!

…yeah, it does limits… but perhaps it is a good thing… if we were to limit ourselves to one or two segments/topics… though it would limit the exchange, more could be presented within the limited interchange.

…it’s understandable… but being Catholic I hold to the inerrancy of Revelation… those who seek to find actual errors in Scriptures come with an absurdity of preconceptions that they do not apply to today’s (as in right now) news reports–I find that they watch a movie/program and they actually believe (and even emulate) what is depicted as though it is reality (correct/truth).

That’s exactly it. Ben Bova (science fiction writer, “Exiled from Earth” and others), accused Christians of operating an “INTELLECTUAL SHELL GAME”. Trying to prove Creation by disproving Evolution. But in the presence of only two theories (Creation, or Evolution – panspermia being but a diversion to the argument), falsifying one does endorse the other. But that’s exactly what they are trying to do – falsify Christianity, to promote their godlessness.

You are correct on the issue of presumption… but there’s much more going on though… have you noticed that their target of choice is often the lesser educated, and often enough the poorest?

It is my presumption that: they target people as a military agency would orchestrate a campaign: locate soft targets, divide and conquer, use insurgents… and flash and flood!

They also appeal to human needs (loneliness, financial stress, domestic preoccupations); in a few cases I’ve known of even the romantic persuasion approach to have been used.

Very much so, and very astute – they lure people in with a “warm family environment”, then once in, they threaten adherents with “expulsion”. I was a staff member on a major board, and there was a poor teen-aged kid whose JW family kicked him out. He knew what Scripture said, but obviously he couldn’t do without his family. It’s an outrageous attitude. Mormons do the same…

…so as St. Paul would say, I am glad to find Believers as you, burning for the Faith, so as to enlist the jealousy of my Catholic Siblings hoping to awaken in them the Thirst and Love for the Sacred Scriptures!

Is that my secret? I pray that it is “an honorable obsession”!

:grouphug:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…if you only knew… I’ve have had revisits and third level “teachers” and “were Catholics” and…

See if you can get your hands on a copy of, “Counterfeits At Your Door” (Bjornstad). Long outta print last time I checked, it’s excellent about Mormons & JW’s. Has a small section on other cults like Moonies. (I had a Moonie approach me once here in my town!) LDS and JW are counterfeits; people get lured in because they are not familiar enough with the genuine. If you know what they believe, and what Scripture really says (in places like Rev3:14, Col1:15, Col2:9 “Godhead”! and others), you can redirect them. Once you start showing them real verses, they are sitting in front of you saying, “Uhhmmm…”

…pacifist and joyful people have gone away from me fuming; telling me that I’m: “not teachable,” “too proud,” “not open to learn the truth,” “not ready to receive Jesus,” “too stubborn…” once I was even called “crazy.”

“Crazy for Jesus” — that doesn’t sound like much of a problem, does it???

…there’s this disjointed theology (a cut and paste mishmash of Scriptures and interpretation of Scriptures), which has higher skill levels then a troop of the finest Chinese acrobats, that is being taught as the Word of God… in my experience, they come from many sources including the Jehovah Witnesses… a lot goes into their indoctrination… but I fear (as with a recent understanding of the 7 days) they are basically “trained” to not think beyond sect/denominational boundaries… I feel that, when they are engaged those outside their groups, they mentally plug their ears so as not to accept a contrasting thought…

Exactly. While their leaders say they want everyone to “read the Scriptures”, they don’t want that at all! They are on narrow boardwalks with specific prooftexts; as I told two JW’s, “we got off the path today and you read verses you didn’t know were there — didn’t you?”

(“Yes.”)

…I pray that our encounters have helped them seek beyond their training… so that they may find themselves Believing in and Believing Jesus rather than the status quo.

…want to confound JWs… when they offer: 'well, that means that Jesus is the first Created…"

…counter… ‘ok, so if that’s what that means… how is the rest of Creation possible since He is the First and the Last?’

Ahhh, there’s the problem — Jesus is NOT “the first and the last”, they pick up a can of spraypaint and paint Rev22:16 as a DIFFERENT SPEAKER. Verse twelve “JEHOVAH GOD is coming quickly to judge men” (no, Jesus is!) JEHOVAH-GOD is the First and the last. Then verse 16 it suddenly changes and JESUS is speaking!

Uh, huh.

I fully concur. I liken these to hollowoods spirituality… if the answer is what you want to hear/do, the Holy Spirit Spoke.

…much like the magic 8 ball… ask for what you want, shake it, and interpret according to your desires… if what is desired is not matched… change the language and shake, shake, shake, till the right response comes at you (much like the modern-day colonization of the world, eh?).

I have one of those “8-balls”! It has very sarcastic sayings. “Kiss off!” “Go find out for yourself!” “I’m not gonna tell you!”

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

Scriptures tell us that the Event is Singular and Transcendent:
(citation 1Thess4:14-17)
One Event which encompasses all time and space (temporal and spiritual realms).Excellent — “caught away”, harpazo (the same word as in Jn10:26, “no one can FORCE you from His hands”).

Now — take that exact passage, and match it with Rev20:4-6. We who are alive will not precede the dead; the dead will be raised FIRST, and then (and only then!) the living are harpazo-siezed/raptured.

But in Rev20:4-6, it is at the END of the Tribulation, where the FIRST RESURRECTION (protos anastasis) happens!

Uhm, wait — if the First Resurrection is at the END of the Tribulation, and if the living shall not precede the dead, when is the RAPTURE??? :scratchhead:

(…really need that “scratch-head smiley”!)

Tim LaHaye (co-author “Left Behind Series”) suggests it’s a STAGED rapture; the big resurrection at the START, which halts for seven years and then CONTINUES at the END.

Yes, “jumping-through-hoops”. One “First Resurrection”, at the end of the Trib, then we who are alive are caught up to meet with Jesus.

…that is why it is so sad that the Body of Christ suffers from so many splinters… the two most precious Commands Christ gave us, Love and Unity, continue to evade us.

 

[jcrichton]

That’s an excellent verse to use with Calvinists — “narrow is the gate that leads to salvation, and few are those who FIND BY SEEKING”. Heurisko absolutely means “find-by-seeking”! So much for “GOD decides everything”! (Or, "no one is able to seek unless God zaps you with regeneration and therefore salvation!)

Matt7:14. “Heurisko” is akin to what Archimedes shouted – climbing into a tub of water, he realized that the water spilling out of the tub was the exact same volume as his body! As the story goes, he ran down the street in the buff shouting, “Eureka! I found it!”

Hi!

I cannot fathom how a Scriptures literate person could miss such clear and simple Revelation: ‘…a few find it;’ this necessitates that there’s a conscious and active search for God where man willingly (active free will) looks to gain God’s Favor (Salvation)… but not only that, Jesus actually demonstrates that they in deed find the Small Gate and Narrow Road (Jesus) that leads to Live (Salvation).

Conversely, the many choose to follow the path through the wide gate and broad road even though they end up waaaay away from God!

(Goodness, was he the very first streaker???)

…I would say it goes back to 776 Olympics… thems people would use any excuse to drop them sheets and run around the poppy fields (yeah conglomeration of “jovial” trends).

There are those whose hearts truly know God; you are one of those!

:blushing::blushing::blushing: Thank you for your generous and uplifting words!

That’s exactly it. Ben Bova (science fiction writer, “Exiled from Earth” and others), accused Christians of operating an “INTELLECTUAL SHELL GAME”. Trying to prove Creation by disproving Evolution. But in the presence of only two theories (Creation, or Evolution – panspermia being but a diversion to the argument), falsifying one does endorse the other. But that’s exactly what they

are trying to do – falsify Christianity, to promote their godlessness.
Sadly, man has become so morbid that anything that places God in a bad light is quickly upheld as credible–in some circles, as the absolute truth.

…but this did not happen in a vacuum… if we look into hollowood’s originals we find that there was a time when a clear understanding of what distinguished good from evil… eventually these lines were blurred and then interposed… clearly God’s warning is left unheeded:

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.

(Isaiah 5:20-23)

Very much so, and very astute – they lure people in with a “warm family environment”, then once in

, they threaten adherents with “expulsion”. I was a staff member on a major board, and there was a poor teen-aged kid whose JW family kicked him out. He knew what Scripture said, but obviously he couldn’t do without his family. It’s an outrageous attitude. Mormons do the same…
I concur fully. I don’t think that they understand that ole “free will” thing… if we coerce/compel people to believe in God through force, threat, trick, or treachery… we gave gained nothing! Not only that but we have actually acted against God’s Goodness:

65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

(St. John 6:65-68)
God Knows our minds and hearts and He does not use any device to oblige us into Fellowship with Him!

…so as St. Paul would say, I am glad to find Believers as you, burning for the Faith, so as to enlist the jealousy of my Catholic Siblings hoping to awaken in them the Thirst and Love for the Sacred Scriptures!

Is that my secret? I pray that it is “an honorable obsession”!

:grouphug:
…since I didn’t fully understand your comment I reposted mine–from reading your posts I find that you are a Believer who is burning for the Faith (One Gospel, One Baptism, One Body, One Spirit, One God, One Faith) and I hope that Believers such as you continue to Stand for Christ in the joy and ardor of sharing Sacred Scriptures so that the same zealousness would be woken in my Catholic Siblings (those who are merely coasting: ‘I’m Catholic/Christian’); I did not mean to imply that you had some secret agenda.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

See if you can get your hands on a copy of, “Counterfeits At Your Door” (Bjornstad). Long outta print last time I checked, it’s excellent about Mormons & JW’s. Has a small section on other cults like Moonies. (I had a Moonie approach me once here in my town!) LDS and JW are counterfeits; people get lured in because they are not familiar enough with the genuine. If you know what they believe, and what Scripture really says (in places like Rev3:14, Col1:15, Col2:9 “Godhead”! and others), you can redirect them. Once you start showing them real verses, they are sitting in front of you saying, “Uhhmmm…”

Hi!

…you must have met with different species than I; the ones I’ve met are quick to stop the visit/exchange and make appointments with “more senior” members… these have made further appointments with yet “more senior” members… and so on…

…with the Jehovah Witnesses I’ve used subliminal tactics–setting up specific passages on construction paper and posting them around the area where I would receive them; I’ve also set up printed passages for discussion (though they refuse to take the printouts, at least they have engaged beyond their boundaries…); during one of these encounters the primary actually let it escape that he enjoyed our encounters because it allowed him to understand how I thought (the read between the lines: honing his skill to use on other Catholics); he moved out of state… but I noticed that none of their congregation would ring my bell after the last incident.

“Crazy for Jesus” — that doesn’t sound like much of a problem,

does it???
…actually the Apostles though of it as a badge of honor:

15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you. 16 But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better doing well (if such be the will of God) to suffer, than doing ill.

(1 St. Peter 3:15-17)
…am I greater than Christ, Who was wronged and maligned for Revealing the Truth? I keep a gentle smile on my face and I embrace the Word of God rather then listening to man’s judgment!

Exactly. While their leaders say

they want everyone to “read the Scriptures”, they don’t want that at all! They are on narrow boardwalks with specific prooftexts; as I told two JW’s, “we got off the path today and you read verses you didn’t know were there — didn’t you?”

(“Yes.”)

Ahhh, there’s the problem — Jesus is NOT “the first and the last”, they pick up a can of spraypaint and paint Rev22:16 as a DIFFERENT SPEAKER. Verse twelve “JEHOVAH GOD is coming quickly to judge men” (no, Jesus is!) JEHOVAH-GOD is the First and the last. Then verse 16 it suddenly changes and JESUS is speaking!
Uh, huh.

I have one of those “8-balls”! It has very sarcastic sayings. “Kiss off!” “Go find out for yourself!” “I’m not gonna tell you!”
…so I insist to demonstrate how they know that it is the Father that is speaking… when they start to become confused I take them back to the beginning of the book:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. (Apocalypse 1:7-8)

…and I query: ‘was the Father ever pierced?’ …if they are not able to pick it up, I go to the origin of the exchange:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, (Apocalypse 1:1a)

…and I further query: ‘whose revelation (announcement/report) is John making?’ ‘Whose words is he conveying/repeating, the Father’s or the Son’s? Finally, who is the protagonist/main character of the story… who is the Bride and the Spirit awaiting for, the Father or the Son?’ ‘…so why would a passive (not made present) Father interject while the Son is Speaking?’

…and this is what I get back: :juggle: :takeoff:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I cannot fathom how a Scriptures literate person could miss such clear and simple Revelation: ‘…a few find it;’ this necessitates that there’s a conscious and active search for God where man willingly (active free will) looks to gain God’s Favor (Salvation)… but not only that, Jesus actually demonstrates that they in deed find the Small Gate and Narrow Road (Jesus) that leads to Live (Salvation).

Conversely, the many choose to follow the path through the wide gate and broad road even though they end up waaaay away from God!

Exactly! Reminds me of Rom2 – “THOSE WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, (receive) eternal life; but THOSE WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, (receive, store up for themselves) wrath.”

In my book there’s a whole appendix, “THOSE WHO” – salvation is so often couched in terms of “those who choose” (I remember you citing John3:18-21!). Then we look for verses that say “GOD who” (chooses individual salvations), and there aren’t any!

…I would say it goes back to 776 Olympics… thems people would use any excuse to drop them sheets and run around the poppy fields (yeah conglomeration of “jovial” trends).

Poppy fields? Where are Scarecrow and the Tin Man when we need them!

:blushing::blushing::blushing: Thank you for your generous and uplifting words!

Thank you for yours!

Sadly, man has become so morbid that anything that places God in a bad light is quickly upheld as credible–in some circles, as the absolute truth.

It’s deeper than that. A prominent Evolutionist was asked why so many believed in Evolution, if the evidence is contrary; he admitted he thought it was sexual — because, “If we admit God exists, then we become responsible to something other than ourselves; and we cannot engage in every twisted perversion we wish!”

People have to believe in things like Evolution and Humanism, because they love sin and can’t stand God! Pretty stupid when they figure out what eternity will be, and how much Love they missed!

…but this did not happen in a vacuum… if we look into hollowood’s originals we find that there was a time when a clear understanding of what distinguished good from evil… eventually these lines were blurred and then interposed… clearly God’s warning is left unheeded:
[citation"cursed are those who call good evil and evil good" (Isaiah 5:20-23) ]

Amen. I watch TV nowadays – it’s expected that relationships will be sexual. Goodness – even if I didn’t have Godly morals and spirituality, there are >300 diseases available, a dozen or more incurable, several FATAL – doesn’t that scare people?

God did not make the “Ten Suggestions” so that we would have less fun; He issued commandments for our own good!

I concur fully. I don’t think that they understand that ole “free will” thing… if we coerce/compel people to believe in God through force, threat, trick, or treachery… we gave gained nothing!

You wouldn’t make a very good Muslim – many consider compulsion, acceptable!

Not only that but we have actually acted against God’s Goodness:

God Knows our minds and hearts and He does not use any device to oblige us into Fellowship with Him!

Good citation. And excellent use of “fellowship”! (1Jn1:3!)

Why would we refuse such love? Men who resist God’s love and wisdom, are called “fools” – may that word never be branded on me!

…since I didn’t fully understand your comment I reposted mine–from reading your posts I find that you are a Believer who is burning for the Faith (One Gospel, One Baptism, One Body, One Spirit, One God, One Faith) and I hope that Believers such as you continue to Stand for Christ in the joy and ardor of sharing Sacred Scriptures so that the same zealousness would be woken in my Catholic Siblings (those who are merely coasting: ‘I’m Catholic/Christian’); I did not mean to imply that you had some secret agenda.

Your assessment of me is accurate. I do have an “agenda” – but it’s not very secret! It is as I posted on the other thread, to “encourage each other …lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God”.

And in my “agenda”, I’m open to learning new things too; each person who allows me to see through his or her eyes, is a privilege. How narrow my world would be if I never looked beyond my own view!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

:tiphat:

…you must have met with different species than I; the ones I’ve met are quick to stop the visit/exchange and make appointments with “more senior” members… these have made further appointments with yet “more senior” members… and so on…

They generally come in pairs; one is “green”, the other is steeped. And yes they run away — but if you use what I suggested, they can’t run away!

“You carry that book around with you. Do you believe it?”
(Yes.)
"Do you follow it?"
(Yes!)
“May I show you something in that book?”

Ask them why Michael didn’t have the same authority over satan as Jesus did? (Jude9) Show them “arche” (origin, source!) in Rev3:14. Show them Col1:15 and discuss “rank/preeminence”, as in Jacob and Esau. Ephraim and Manasseh. Then show them Col1:18! Show them Rev21:6 and Jn4:14. But most of all, show them what Jesus brought was a UNION between two very real people — Creator/Jehovah, and creature (you and me). Do they really think God wanted a union between two created beings? Or does God want a union between us, and Himself?

They’re not going to run away while you’re holding their copy!

…with the Jehovah Witnesses I’ve used subliminal tactics–setting up specific passages on construction paper and posting them around the area where I would receive them; I’ve also set up printed passages for discussion (though they refuse to take the printouts, at least they have engaged beyond their boundaries…); during one of these encounters the primary actually let it escape that he enjoyed our encounters because it allowed him to understand how I thought (the read between the lines: honing his skill to use on other Catholics); he moved out of state… but I noticed that none of their congregation would ring my bell after the last incident.

I’ve always suspected they used “blacklists”. But God is capable of overcoming “don’t-ring” lists!

…actually the Apostles though of it as a badge of honor:

…am I greater than Christ, Who was wronged and maligned for Revealing the Truth? I keep a gentle smile on my face and I embrace the Word of God rather then listening to man’s judgment!

…so I insist to demonstrate how they know that it is the Father that is speaking… when they start to become confused I take them back to the beginning of the book:
(citation (Apocalypse 1:7-8) )
…and I query: ‘was the Father ever pierced?’ …if they are not able to pick it up, I go to the origin of the exchange:

Ahhhh, that book isn’t in my copy. Nor is it in theirs. Excellent point, though.

I bought a “New World Translation” (not sure what I did with the copy the Kingdom Hall gave me!) — so I can look up and find alterations Watchtower has done…

…and I further query: ‘whose revelation (announcement/report) is John making?’ ‘Whose words is he conveying/repeating, the Father’s or the Son’s? Finally, who is the protagonist/main character of the story… who is the Bride and the Spirit awaiting for, the Father or the Son?’ ‘…so why would a passive (not made present) Father interject while the Son is Speaking?’

Right. And — JESUS is coming, JESUS is the bridegroom, JESUS will judge the righteous and the sinners.

…and this is what I get back:

When you share Rev1:8 and Rev22:12-16, it’s effective to say — “Watchtower has responded to this passage; spray-painting verse 16 as a different speaker than verses 12-15. Do you see any subject-change there? Now – let’s turn back one chapter, to Rev21:6 — how do you resolve that with John4:14? We can read Luke4:8, ONLY JEHOVAH-GOD shall be worshiped. What about here and here and here and here where Jesus accepted worship – was He blaspheming?”

How about all the times the Jews clearly thought “He was calling Himself ‘God’?”

If you know enough to be dangerous, they’ll soon be saying — “…uhmmmmm…”

I have also challenged them with, “You and I will some day stand before God. He will not ask you about me, or about your brothers or sisters or Mom or Dad, or your elders; He will ask you about YOU. If you’re right, you are right forever. If wrong, you’re wrong forever. You just read things that you never knew were there; promise that you’ll think about what you read, and that you’ll read further?”

They will promise!

 

[jcrichton]

Exactly! Reminds me of Rom2 – “THOSE WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, (receive) eternal life; but THOSE WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, (receive, store up for themselves) wrath.”

In my book there’s a whole appendix, “THOSE WHO” – salvation is so often couched in terms of “those who choose” (I remember you citing John3:18-21!). Then we look for verses that say “GOD who” (chooses individual salvations), and there aren’t any!

Hi!

It hurts me so much to learn that people just simply refuse to Believe God… yeah they Believe in God… but they do not Believe God:

2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

(Romans 2:2-4)
…if all Sacred Scriptures were to somehow vanish and nothing but the above could be found… how can a reasonable man believe that God chooses some and damns others… how could a reasonable man not understand that God hates sin not man and that His Love and Mercy extends to all who choose to reject sin and embrace God?

It’s deeper than that. A prominent Evolutionist was asked why so many believed in Evolution, if the evidence is contrary; he admitted he thought it was sexual

— because, “If we admit God exists, then we become responsible to something other than ourselves; and we cannot engage in every twisted perversion we wish!”

People have to believe in things like Evolution and Humanism, because they love sin and can’t stand God! Pretty stupid when they figure out what eternity will be, and how much Love they missed!

Amen. I watch TV nowadays – it’s expected that relationships will be sexual. Goodness – even if I didn’t have Godly morals and spirituality, there are >300 diseases available, a dozen or more incurable, several FATAL – doesn’t that scare people?

God did not make the “Ten Suggestions” so that we would have less fun; He issued commandments for our own good!
…yet, I believe that it is also about loving wickedness… not just sensual pleasures… I recall a while ago some kid goes to one of his “idols” for a autograph… as he signs the guy comments (while on the air/being taped) to the boy that he had to take advantage of his age (minor) to do all things (experiment with drugs, sex…) because he could get away with it! …yeah, the moral fiber of secularism at its apex!

You wouldn’t make a very good Muslim – many consider compulsion, acceptable!

Good citation. And excellent use of “fellowship”! (1Jn1:3!)

Why would we refuse such love? Men who resist God’s love and wisdom, are called “fools” – may that word never be branded on me!

Your assessment of me is accurate. I do have an “agenda” – but it’s not very secret! It is as I posted on the other thread, to “encourage each other …lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God”.

And in my “agenda”, I’m open to learning new things too; each person who allows me to see through his or her eyes, is a privilege. How narrow my world would be if I never looked beyond my own view!
It is clear that man’s understanding of the term “love” has been impregnated with ego and selfishness… I suspect that it is the main reason why people have become so ravenous and venomous… when we look at the Christian model, we cannot but recognize the powerful contrast:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a)

…“me” (as in, egocentrism) does not exists… how frightful!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

They generally come in pairs; one is “green”, the other is steeped. And yes they run away — but if you use what I suggested, they can’t run away!

“You carry that book around with you. Do you believe it?”
(Yes.)
"Do you follow it?"
(Yes!)
“May I show you something in that book?”

Ask them why Michael didn’t have the same authority over satan as Jesus did? (Jude9) Show them “arche” (origin, source!) in Rev3:14. Show them Col1:15 and discuss “rank/preeminence”, as in Jacob and Esau. Ephraim and Manasseh. Then show them Col1:18! Show them Rev21:6 and Jn4:14. But most of all, show them what Jesus brought was a UNION between two very real people — Creator/Jehovah, and creature (you and me). Do they really think God wanted a union between two created beings? Or does God want a union between us, and Himself?

They’re not going to run away while you’re holding their copy!

Hi!

…yeah, I’ve done that arch-Angel’s dance… I know what you mean about the pairs… but in my situation it quickly escalates to pinch-hitters (and sometimes three members–I suspect the novice, their first liners and next level/s)… they are not easily swayed from their perch (the test Scriptures and the study plan)… though upper levels are more willing to go beyond the boundaries…

I’ve always suspected they used “blacklists”. But God is capable of overcoming “don’t-ring” lists!

…in one instance it was almost comical… two ladies ranged, started their script; I gently injected that one of their members had been studying with me but that he had not returned… the ladies looked at each other and smiled… one of them mentioned the name of the visitor… we parted… when others came about the two ladies quickly guided them away–I felt so left out! :crying::crying::crying:

Ahhhh, that book isn’t in my copy.

Nor is it in theirs. Excellent point, though.

I bought a “New World Translation” (not sure what I did with the copy the Kingdom Hall gave me!) — so I can look up and find alterations Watchtower has done…

Right. And — JESUS is coming, JESUS is the bridegroom, JESUS will judge the righteous and the sinners.

When you share Rev1:8 and Rev22:12-16, it’s effective to say — “Watchtower has responded to this passage; spray-painting verse 16 as a different speaker than verses 12-15. Do you see any subject-change there? Now – let’s turn back one chapter, to Rev21:6 — how do you resolve that with John4:14? We can read Luke4:8, ONLY JEHOVAH-GOD shall be worshiped. What about here and here and here and here where Jesus accepted worship – was He blaspheming?”

How about all the times the Jews clearly thought “He was calling Himself ‘God’?”

If you know enough to be dangerous, they’ll soon be saying — “…uhmmmmm…”

I have also challenged them with, “You and I will some day stand before God. He will not ask you about me, or about your brothers or sisters or Mom or Dad, or your elders; He will ask you about YOU. If you’re right, you are right forever. If wrong, you’re wrong forever. You just read things that you never knew were there; promise that you’ll think about what you read, and that you’ll read further?”

They will promise!
…sorry for the confusion… since I often use the term “Revelation” in my posts I turn to the alternate title “Apocalypse” when referencing the actual book of Revelation in Scriptures–so you do have it in your copy (just different vocabulary/term).

…the Living Water and adoration/worship are two other factors… I also throw in the Light (specially when hitting them with John 1:1)… it is interesting how even the most seniors are quick to :juggle::juggle::juggle: Scriptures and come back with outrageous interpretations and exegesis…

The final encounter I had was the best one… the gentleman actually agreed to forgo their usual apparatus (prints/leaflets/booklets) and we would actually set an agenda for the next meeting… it allowed me to prepare passages for the exchange… so I hit him with Jesus’ acceptance of adoration/worship… (quite a few passages in the Gospels), the one in Apocalypse (Revelation) where the angel quickly admonishes John to cease and desist… they I finalize with Jesus being worshiped/adored right in front of the Father.

Chinese acrobatics have nothing on them!

…yet, I never new they were not the only nuts hard to crack!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

It hurts me so much to learn that people just simply refuse to Believe God… yeah they Believe in God… but they do not Believe God:

What does “belief” mean? The Greek founds on “pistis”; faith – is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen. In short, “faith”, is certain reality. No doubt, He and eternity are our certainty.

…if all Sacred Scriptures were to somehow vanish and nothing but the above could be found… how can a reasonable man believe that God chooses some and damns others… how could a reasonable man not understand that God hates sin not man and that His Love and Mercy extends to all who choose to reject sin and embrace God?

I’ve said nearly the exact same thing about that passage! Question – does God lead to repentance, even those who refuse to repent (and store wrath for themselves)? Paul said nothing else!

I hope to give readers here ammunition when debating with people like Calvinists; well meaning folk, who do desire to follow Jesus. If we accurately convey Scripture, it is as if God (through us) has reached out and straightened their tiller. God leads all to repent (Acts17:31!).

Deut30:11-31 and its connection with Rom10:6-10 cannot be under-emphasized. The “word-of-faith” (which Paul says is the SAME “word-of-faith”, in Jesus’ Gospel!), is in every heart and mouth; it is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and GIVE it to (some) to make us hear it, that we may obey it! And that foundationally and forever ruins Monergism/Calvinism!

That “word-of-faith” is in EVERY heart and mouth; each must decide to turn to God, confess believe and be saved, or to turn away and perish. God makes sure that every person can seek and find Him, He’s not too far from anyone! Look at how the Deut30 passage meshes with Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31!

Do Calvinists have any defense? (No!) :nope:

But so many (most!) who call themselves “Christian”, approach it as a belief.
“I’m saved, because I believe _______”

NO! :doh2: :dts:

It’s not a belief! James said (2:19) “you believe in one God, you do well; but even demons believe and shudder!”

You remember this story?

But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, “I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?”
And the man …leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." Acts19

Now, what did the Apostles have that the exorcists did not? Much more than “belief” – they knew Jesus! As Jesus said (Lk17:3) “Father, eternal life is knowing Me and knowing You!”

…yet, I believe that it is also about loving wickedness… not just sensual pleasures… I recall a while ago some kid goes to one of his “idols” for a autograph… as he signs the guy comments (while on the air/being taped) to the boy that he had to take advantage of his age (minor) to do all things (experiment with drugs, sex…) because he could get away with it! …yeah, the moral fiber of secularism at its apex!

Here is the secret to the Universe – a person either belongs to the Light, or to the darkness. “He who is not with Me, is against Me!” Matt12:30

We are EITHER in Christ, OR in sin. That’s why this whole conversation is so critically important – we can return to “in sin” if we are not diligent in Christ!

It is clear that man’s understanding of the term “love” has been impregnated with ego and selfishness… I suspect that it is the main reason why people have become so ravenous and venomous… when we look at the Christian model, we cannot but recognize the powerful contrast:

…“me” (as in, egocentrism) does not exists… how frightful!

“Love” is to place another’s welfare above even one’s self. It is to not return evil for evil, but it is to pay KINDNESS, even to those who would destroy us!

An American soldier was captured by the Viet Kong. Pinned inside a tiny cage, his capture was frustrated: “I torture and torture you! Why do you not curse me, why do you not hate me?!”

With great effort the American soldier raised his head, and stared his diminutive captor in his eyes.

“Because I am a CHRISTIAN, and I will not return evil for evil; I will not hate you, I love you.”

The Vietnamese soldier stared for a long moment; then his eyes fell. In a quiet voice, he said: "…Then I will die a Christian."

(How many people did NOT get goose-bumps at THAT story!)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…yeah, I’ve done that arch-Angel’s dance… I know what you mean about the pairs… but in my situation it quickly escalates to pinch-hitters (and sometimes three members–I suspect the novice, their first liners and next level/s)… they are not easily swayed from their perch (the test Scriptures and the study plan)… though upper levels are more willing to go beyond the boundaries… Once you know what they believe (and what the Scriptures REALLY say), you can confront them with a WALL. :banghead:

They cannot continue in the same direction, because now they know Scriptures diverge from what they’ve been taught. Sadly, when I confronted the two guys, I had not enough knowledge to know that Watchtower had already “spraypainted” Rev22:16 as “different speaker”. But with each thing I learn, the more solid the wall is that I can set in front of them.

…in one instance it was almost comical… two ladies ranged, started their script; I gently injected that one of their members had been studying with me but that he had not returned… the ladies looked at each other and smiled… one of them mentioned the name of the visitor… we parted… when others came about the two ladies quickly guided them away–I felt so left out!