Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[jcrichton]

What does “belief” mean? The Greek founds on “pistis”; faith – is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen. In short, “faith”, is certain reality. No doubt, He and eternity are our certainty.

I’ve said nearly the exact same thing about that passage! Question – does God lead to repentance, even those who refuse to repent (and store wrath for themselves)? Paul said nothing else!

I hope to give readers here ammunition when debating with people like Calvinists; well meaning folk, who do desire to follow Jesus. If we accurately convey Scripture, it is as if God (through us) has reached out and straightened their tiller. God leads all to repent (Acts17:31!).

Deut30:11-31 and its connection with Rom10:6-10 cannot be under-emphasized. The “word-of-faith” (which Paul says is the SAME “word-of-faith”, in Jesus’ Gospel!), is in every heart and mouth; it is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and GIVE it to (some) to make us hear it, that we may obey it! And that foundationally and forever ruins Monergism/Calvinism!

That “word-of-faith” is in EVERY heart and mouth; each must decide to turn to God, confess believe and be saved, or to turn away and perish. God makes sure that every person can seek and find Him, He’s not too far from anyone! Look at how the Deut30 passage meshes with Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31!

Do Calvinists have any defense? (No!) :nope:

But so many (most!) who call themselves “Christian”, approach it as a belief.
“I’m saved, because I believe _______”

NO! :doh2: :dts:

Hi!

…it is not about a mechanism (contract/clause/Biblical passage)… it is about Believing in and abiding in God. Faith, if employed correctly, means that we Believe in God (hold God as the Object of our Faith) and that we Believe God (Trust God’s Understanding rather than ours). God Promised Abram that He would make him the father of many nations: Abraham… then he asked Abraham to Sacrifice Isaac, the son of the Promise… Abraham Believed God could Do what He Promised… that He had the Power to Make His Word/Promise happen no matter what!

So when God states that He does not want anyone to die, we must Believe God regardless of what our finite understanding may project/compel us to believe!

It’s not a belief! James said (2:19) "you believe

in one God, you do well; but even demons believe and shudder!"

You remember this story?

But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, “I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?”
And the man …leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." Acts19

Now, what did the Apostles have that the exorcists did not? Much more than “belief” – they knew Jesus! As Jesus said (Lk17:3) “Father, eternal life is knowing Me and knowing You!”

Here is the secret to the Universe – a person either belongs to the Light, or to the darkness. “He who is not with Me, is against Me!” Matt12:30

We are EITHER in Christ, OR in sin. That’s why this whole conversation is so critically important – we can return to “in sin” if we are not diligent in Christ!
…the difference between others and the Apostles is that the latter took Jesus at His Word–they Believed Christ:

18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

(St. Matthew 18:18-20)

“Love” is to place another’s welfare above even one’s self. It is to not return evil for evil, but it is to pay KINDNESS, even to those who would destroy us!

An American soldier was captured by the Viet Kong. Pinned inside a tiny cage, his capture was frustrated: “I torture and torture you! Why do you not curse me, why do you not hate me?!”

With great effort the American soldier raised his head, and stared his diminutive captor in his eyes.

“Because I am a CHRISTIAN, and I will not return evil for evil; I will not hate you, I love you.”

The Vietnamese soldier stared for a long moment; then his eyes fell. In a quiet voice, he said: "…Then I will die a Christian."

(How many people did NOT get goose-bumps at THAT story!)
…sadly, these episodes take place around the glove almost inadvertently… and when the stories circulate they do awaken a sense of longing… yet, more sad still, it is a fact that we (Christians) hinder the Holy Spirit as we push Love out of our orbit and embrace everything else… it is as if we can Believe in Christ but not fully Believe Christ… we hear the Word… we rehearse It… we study It… but we continually put our efforts into “knowledge” or “freedom” or “clans.”

…never mind that Jesus stipulates that:

35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

(St. John 13:35)
We must put away our ego, with all its “knowledge” and “understanding” and “accomplishments” and we must stop believing man’s construct and Believe God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Once you know what they believe (and what the Scriptures REALLY say), you can confront them with a WALL. :banghead:

They cannot continue in the same direction, because now they know Scriptures diverge from what they’ve been taught. Sadly, when I confronted the two guys, I had not enough knowledge to know that Watchtower had already “spraypainted” Rev22:16 as “different speaker”. But with each thing I learn, the more solid the wall is that I can set in front of them.

I suggest a different approach; don’t close off communication, take the book that they carry and make connections that they never dreamed were there! When I read John1 to them, I asked – "Do you really think John sat down and wrote that Jesus was a FALSE gOD?" They said, “…no.”

Then what was his intent?

("…uhhhmmmm…")

Oops, my bad; like I said, there’s always more to learn!

…well, there are three responses which I can see coming… from the novice: glass eye and run; from the experienced: chess game (they focus on three or four counter moves rather than listen to what I am offering); the senior: invitation (‘once he’s on my turf, watch out!’); I pray that they (all levels) are able to open enough of their hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit so that He may Convict them of the Truth.

“Eisegesis”. Exegesis is when we get it right.

Which means He wither WAS “God” (big G), or He was doin’ some serious blasphemy!

They didn’t have a defense, did they?

You and I always have more to learn about “patience”. Sometimes it’s a little like trying to stop water through a leaky channel; once you get all of the leaks stopped, only then can they see it’s flowing in a whole other direction!

That’s my approach with Calvinism; Fifty-Five “Secondary” verses, and then four “Primary” passages. Once ALL of those are exegeted with solid context, they realize they have no choice!
…they truly believe that they are reading and transmitting the Word of God… but it is not simply about eisegesis (which would deal mainly with interpretation of the text) but it is a problem of “culture.” The way they translate Scriptures and the theology which they teach has deep reaching effects on the minds (and consequently spirits) of their members… they don’t even seem to realize how infantile their arguments can be nor how anti-Christ their faith-base is (all levels, not just the novices).

I employ so much patience that they sometimes believe that I’m coming across to their understanding… this frustrates them further… sadly, till today I have not encounter a single one of them that have wanted to share Scriptures (Bible study) for the sake of getting closer to God…

(…unless it’s such a person as one contending Peter meant "God does not ordain to perish only those He’s ordained not-perish

(of course He DOES ordain MOST to perish), but patiently waits for repentance from those He’s ordained repentance for (He’s not really waiting!)".

Wow – God does not ordain only those He’s not ordained, but patiently waits for those He’s not waiting for.

Yeeeaaaaahhhh, very sound logic.



Patience; all that inability to convince people means, is that God has more to mature in US.


…yeah, creative writing (rewriting) and Chinese acrobatics (I keep using the term cause I’ve never seen anyone that can contort more intricately and more artfully than them); it’s the St. Paul’s fall from the horse thing… it’s not there, but, oh mamma, how people love to quote that he did!

What is believed to have been said in Scriptures is more important than what the Scriptures themselves state…

I pray… I am always respectful of others’ belief… and I allow for exchange–even to the point of letting them have the lion’s share of time… I find that with my steadfastness to Scriptures and my self-control (never raising my voice nor forcibly taking over the conversation)… I can at least offer to them a glimpse of my Faith… (more prayers).

…I do concur with you that God is honing us as we engage others in friendly exchanges about the Word of God… I see lessons within my responses (both here and live); often enough I pray that the Holy Spirit Guide me so that I may not be a stumbling block but a light for others and for myself!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…it is not about a mechanism (contract/clause/Biblical passage)… it is about Believing in and abiding in God.

Abiding in God, and God abiding in us.

“God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” 1Jn4:16

Faith, if employed correctly, means that we Believe in God (hold God as the Object of our Faith) and that we Believe God (Trust God’s Understanding rather than ours). God Promised Abram that He would make him the father of many nations: Abraham… then he asked Abraham to Sacrifice Isaac, the son of the Promise… Abraham Believed God could Do what He Promised… that He had the Power to Make His Word/Promise happen no matter what!

Yes – all of that. And, we actually commune with the true person(s) of God. “He who has Jesus has eternal life; …you may know you have eternal life.” 1Jn5:11-13

So when God states that He does not want anyone to die, we must Believe God regardless of what our finite understanding may project/compel us to believe!

Ezk18:31-32!

…the difference between others and the Apostles is that the latter took Jesus at His Word–they Believed Christ:
(citation St. Matthew 18:18-20) …“For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

There am I (Jesus!) in their midst; the real person of Jesus, not just sitting in a box next to us as we drive through life, but – “…it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me” (Gal2:20). Not mere mental assent (James2:19), but a true union, a marriage, between two real people. Creator (Jesus) — and creature (you and me).

…sadly, these episodes take place around the glove almost inadvertently… and when the stories circulate they do awaken a sense of longing… yet, more sad still, it is a fact that we (Christians) hinder the Holy Spirit as we push Love out of our orbit and embrace everything else… it is as if we can Believe in Christ but not fully Believe Christ… we hear the Word… we rehearse It… we study It… but we continually put our efforts into “knowledge” or “freedom” or “clans.”

How can we love others? Especially our ENEMIES, as they try to kill us?

“Father, FORGIVE THEM – they do not know what they’re doing!”

Goodness. Can you imagine hanging there, horrible cruel nails through your hands and feet, wicked thorns on your head piercing down into your skull? Searing white-hot pain, hanging there WATCHING the very ones murdering you — and you — you – forgive them?

You and I could never do that!
Ohhhh, yes we could; because HE forgives them THROUGH us. This is our reality – Jesus is now our new heart!

"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matt5:43-48

Love your enemy! Humanly impossible; but perfectly possible when He becomes our new hearts. None of us has any enemy who is more wicked and more undeserving of God’s grace than any of us; “there are none righteous, all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.” God has forgiven us so much – can we hold to account those who have done one or two (or a hundred) wrongs to us?

As in all other areas, our sacred charge is to “draw close to Him, that He draws close to us”; for our love for others only reflects how well WE know HIM.

…never mind that Jesus stipulates that:
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another. (St. John 13:35)
We must put away our ego, with all its “knowledge” and “understanding” and “accomplishments” and we must stop believing man’s construct and Believe God!

Exactly that. You and I think much alike.
…rather, we “have the mind of Christ”!

 

[Gadgeteer]

…well, there are three responses which I can see coming… from the novice: glass eye and run; from the experienced: chess game (they focus on three or four counter moves rather than listen to what I am offering); the senior: invitation (‘once he’s on my turf, watch out!’); I pray that they (all levels) are able to open enough of their hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit so that He may Convict them of the Truth.

Give them no “wiggle room”. Take them to Rev1:8 (Jehovah-Almighty-God is the Alpha & Omega), then Rev22:12-16; establish in Rev22:12-16 that there is no subject change, connect verse 12 “I am coming quickly” to JESUS, Jehovah is not coming back to judge men, JESUS is. Give them Rev21:6, “I Alpha/Omega give the water of life” with John4:14. And as you did, show them how Jesus ACCEPTED worship – which per verses like Lk4:8 is prohibited for anyone but God! Show them Col2:9 “theotes”, Godhead! Show them how the Jews at the time clearly perceived "Him calling Himself ‘GOD’ ".

With all these things, which can be shown in less than two minutes, Scripture builds a solid wall against their doctrine! They’ll go back to their Kingdom Hall, and read the rebuttals; but now they know the Scriptures — and in response to the JW rebuttals, they’ll think – “…no, that’s not what it says!”

And so begins the dawn of a new chapter in their lives!!!

…they truly believe that they are reading and transmitting the Word of God… but it is not simply about eisegesis (which would deal mainly with interpretation of the text) but it is a problem of “culture.”

The approach to Calvinists is the same as to JW’s – show them clear solid Scripture, so they no longer can perceive RT doctrine as “valid”.

The way they translate Scriptures and the theology which they teach has deep reaching effects on the minds (and consequently spirits) of their members… they don’t even seem to realize how infantile their arguments can be nor how anti-Christ their faith-base is (all levels, not just the novices).

And here is the irony – their view of US, from my experience, is that they are on a higher position looking down on OUR “immature/insufficiently-learned/incomplete-spirituality”!

“I used to believe as you; but then I matured spiritually — (or) — studied Scripture more — (or) was taught by the Holy Spirit…”

…or some other superior perch!

But in the face of solid irresistible Scripture, the only response will be: “…uhhhh…”

“holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.” Titus1:9!

I employ so much patience that they sometimes believe that I’m coming across to their understanding… this frustrates them further… sadly, till today I have not encounter a single one of them that have wanted to share Scriptures (Bible study) for the sake of getting closer to God…

And that’s the tragedy; Christianity is all about “getting closer to God”! James4:6-10!

…yeah, creative writing (rewriting) and Chinese acrobatics (I keep using the term cause I’ve never seen anyone that can contort more intricately and more artfully than them); it’s the St. Paul’s fall from the horse thing… it’s not there, but, oh mamma, how people love to quote that he did!

When you and I understand that others sit on a superior platform, looking DOWN on us, we can learn how to gently but firmly begin disassembling that very platform so that before they realize what’s happening they’re standing level on the same ground as us!

What is believed to have been said in Scriptures is more important than what the Scriptures themselves state…

“Your word have I hidden in my heart” – Psalm 119:11!

Is not studying Scripture a THIRST, the more we drink the more we thirst for His wisdom?

I pray… I am always respectful of others’ belief… and I allow for exchange–even to the point of letting them have the lion’s share of time… I find that with my steadfastness to Scriptures and my self-control (never raising my voice nor forcibly taking over the conversation)… I can at least offer to them a glimpse of my Faith… (more prayers).

Without that respect, the doors will close; and it’s so much easier to talk through an open door, than a closed one!

…I do concur with you that God is honing us as we engage others in friendly exchanges about the Word of God… I see lessons within my responses (both here and live); often enough I pray that the Holy Spirit Guide me so that I may not be a stumbling block but a light for others and for myself!

Very honorable and admirable attitude. I pray that I embody that as well as you.

 

[jcrichton]

Abiding in God, and God abiding in us.

“God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” 1Jn4:16

Yes – all of that. And, we actually commune with the true person(s) of God. “He who has Jesus has eternal life; …you may know you have eternal life.” 1Jn5:11-13

Ezk18:31-32!

There am I (Jesus!) in their midst; the real person of Jesus, not just sitting in a box next to us as we drive through life, but – “…it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me” (Gal2:20). Not mere mental assent (James2:19), but a true union, a marriage, between two real people. Creator (Jesus) — and creature (you and me).

Hi!
…that’s the Unity to which we are Called: that they be one in Me as I am One in You! I think that that’s why I love St. John 15:1-10 (farm-boy at heart); it is the most creative depiction of Unity in God: Abiding in Jesus as He Abides in us Grants us Life!

How can we love others? Especially our ENEMIES, as they try to kill us?

“Father, FORGIVE THEM – they do not know what they’re doing!”

Goodness. Can you imagine hanging there, horrible cruel nails through your hands and feet, wicked thorns on your head piercing down into your skull? Searing white-hot pain, hanging there WATCHING the very ones murdering you — and you — you – forgive them?

You and I could never do that!
Ohhhh, yes we could; because HE forgives them THROUGH us. This is our reality – Jesus is now our new heart!

"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matt5:43-48

Love your enemy! Humanly impossible; but perfectly possible when He becomes our new hearts. None of us has any enemy who is more wicked and more undeserving of God’s grace than any of us; “there are none righteous, all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.” God has forgiven us so much – can we hold to account those who have done one or two (or a hundred) wrongs to us?
…we can see this in the second Divine clause:

‘…forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who trespass against us…’

As God applies His Mercy and Forgiveness to us, we must apply God’s Mercy and Forgiveness to others, and ourselves!

As in all other areas, our sacred charge is to “draw close to Him, that He draws close to us”; for our love for others only reflects how well WE know HIM.

Exactly that. You and I think much alike.
…rather, we “have the mind of Christ”!
…getting closer to God means becoming alter Christus: “Be Holy for I AM HOLY.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Give them no “wiggle room”. Take them to Rev1:8 (Jehovah-Almighty-God is the Alpha & Omega), then Rev22:12-16; establish in Rev22:12-16 that there is no subject change, connect verse 12 “I am coming quickly” to JESUS, Jehovah is not coming back to judge men, JESUS is. Give them Rev21:6, “I Alpha/Omega give the water of life” with John4:14. And as you did, show them how Jesus ACCEPTED worship – which per verses like Lk4:8 is prohibited for anyone but God! Show them Col2:9 “theotes”, Godhead! Show them how the Jews at the time clearly perceived "Him calling Himself ‘GOD’ ".

With all these things, which can be shown in less than two minutes, Scripture builds a solid wall against their doctrine! They’ll go back to their Kingdom Hall, and read the rebuttals; but now they know the Scriptures — and in response to the JW rebuttals, they’ll think – “…no, that’s not what it says!”

And so begins the dawn of a new chapter in their lives!!!

The approach to Calvinists is the same as to JW’s – show them clear solid Scripture, so they no longer can perceive RT doctrine as “valid”.

Hi!

I can only pray…

And here is the irony – their view of US, from my experience,

is that they are on a higher position looking down on OUR “immature/insufficiently-learned/incomplete-spirituality”!

“I used to believe as you; but then I matured spiritually — (or) — studied Scripture more — (or) was taught by the Holy Spirit…”

…or some other superior perch!

But in the face of solid irresistible Scripture, the only response will be: “…uhhhh…”

“holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.” Titus1:9!
…this is what is so difficult… I once spent over five hours attempting to convey that we cannot engage unrighteousness on the premise that Christ died and paid the price for our past, present and future sins… that we are Called to Walk in the Light not just claim to be of the Light… the final word: ‘nope, that means that no matter how much a person sins God has already forgiven everything in Christ (of course, not those who are not of the Fold–only those of the Fold enjoy such great comforts).’ :bigyikes::banghead::banghead:

And that’s the tragedy; Christianity is all about

“getting closer to God”! James4:6-10!

When you and I understand that others sit on a superior platform, looking DOWN on us, we can learn how to gently but firmly begin disassembling that very platform so that before they realize what’s happening they’re standing level on the same ground as us!
I think that this is the massive immunization that they are injected with as they enter (get caught in the clutches) these sects/denominations… specially the JW’s; ever tried to offer them some literature? They will not take it–and talk about selective reasoning… even the quotes that they use from extra-Biblical sources must come from their “cleansed” system (‘cuase you know they [the Catholic Church] have corrupted all historical writings…’).

Interestingly enough, their scholars/theologians have done true study and correct translations–that makes them the epitome of the true and correct fountain of Divine Revelation.

“Your word have I hidden in my heart” – Psalm 119:11!

Is not studying Scripture a THIRST, the more we drink the more we thirst for His wisdom?

…you’ve reminded me of this passage on Wisdom:

22 For in her is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, 23 Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. 24 For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. 25 For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her. 26 For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness. 27 And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. 28 For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. 29 For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. 30 For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom.

(Wisdom 7:22-30)
…it is no wonder that Scriptures are so enticing!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I can only pray…

Yes, pray — and – know what they believe. I still recommend that outta-print book, “Counterfeits At Your Door”. satan is the master counterfeiter; he knows his fake religions are false; but like all counterfeiters he crumples the paper, rubs them with coffee grains and dirt to deceive people into accepting them as genuine.

…this is what is so difficult… I once spent over five hours attempting to convey that we cannot engage unrighteousness on the premise that Christ died and paid the price for our past, present and future sins… that we are Called to Walk in the Light not just claim to be of the Light… the final word: ‘nope, that means that no matter how much a person sins God has already forgiven everything in Christ (of course, not those who are not of the Fold–only those of the Fold enjoy such great comforts).’

Five hours! Wow — “patience is a virtue”, and you have alot!

What did they think about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, and Gal5:19-21? How about 1Jn3:5-10???

I think that this is the massive immunization that they are injected with as they enter (get caught in the clutches) these sects/denominations… specially the JW’s; ever tried to offer them some literature? They will not take it–and talk about selective reasoning… even the quotes that they use from extra-Biblical sources must come from their “cleansed” system (‘cause you know they [the Catholic Church] have corrupted all historical writings…’).

That’s right — “it has been CORRUPTED”. So also say the Mormons. Nooo, we have things like the Dead Sea Scrolls; proving it’s NOT corrupted. Something like 5,000 copies surviving time, some datable to within 50 years of Jesus.

No, it’s not “been corrupted” (except by Watchtower!!!)

Interestingly enough, their scholars/theologians have done true study and correct translations–that makes them the epitome of the true and correct fountain of Divine Revelation.

When you start taking them “off of the carefully-laid-boardwalk” and getting them into solid and multiple Scriptures, they get kinda …quiet…

“…uhhhmmmm”

I can’t wait for the next doorbell, and I can explain that Watchtower HAS tried to answer Rev22:12-16, but clearly there is NOT a subject-change…

:extrahappy:

…you’ve reminded me of this passage on Wisdom:

Nice citation! And – “worldly wisdom is foolishness to God, God’s wisdom is foolish to the world; but God is well pleased THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.” (1Cor1)

We choose to believe, and therefore His message becomes wisdom; by our faith.
That’s whut it sayz…

…it is no wonder that Scriptures are so enticing!

Yes… …if… …one’s heart truly seeks after God and the Spirit. In the world of Catholicism, just like in the world of Protestantism, there are those whose hearts yearn after Him and His righteousness; and those whose hearts do not. I mean no insult to anyone, but my heart yearns to lead all others to be of the former.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, pray — and – know what they believe. I still recommend that outta-print book, “Counterfeits At Your Door”. satan is the master counterfeiter; he knows his fake religions are false; but like all counterfeiters he crumples the paper, rubs them with coffee grains and dirt to deceive people into accepting them as genuine.

Five hours! Wow — “patience is a virtue”, and you have alot!

What did they think about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, and Gal5:19-21? How about 1Jn3:5-10???

Hi!

I do not know how rampant this theological understanding is… but I have been engaged by several different people from different religious groups that hold the same principles… when confronted with any passage that demands "remove/change the old man (flesh) into the new man (spiritual) their interpretation is steadfast on:

6 anyone who lives in God does not sin

, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him. (1 St. John 3:6a–only that portion of the verse!)
…they, of course, also reject the need to Confess our sins; they do not accept the Sacrament of Confession but ascribe their permanent ‘God’s sees our righteousness in Christ…’ (or some other similar tenet); according to their belief all of those warnings are directed towards pagans (and, I suspect, Catholics ).

That’s right — “it has been CORRUPTED”. So also say the Mormons. Nooo, we have things like the Dead Sea Scrolls; proving it’s NOT corrupted. Something like 5,000 copies surviving time, some datable to within 50 years of Jesus.

No, it’s not “been corrupted” (except by Watchtower!!!)

When you start taking them “off of the carefully-laid-boardwalk” and getting them into solid and multiple Scriptures, they get kinda …quiet…

“…uhhhmmmm”

I can’t wait for the next doorbell, and I can explain that Watchtower HAS tried to answer Rev22:12-16, but clearly there is NOT a subject-change…

…that’s why they refuse to leave their orchestrated “playbook.” I think that they are also trained to spot those who are versed in Scriptures as they quickly want to make a next appointment with someone “more” learned in Scriptures… (Reminds me of that old war cry: “leave none alive”–though it could be movie jargon rather than actual training call.)

I’ve also noted how dimmed their understanding/views are as they present themselves/organization as being the only honest agent in the world–and in spite of their claim, they embrace and cite those texts that they believe are in support their arguments… so whose pulling the wool over people’s eyes? :hypno::hypno::hypno::hypno:

Nice citation! And – “worldly wisdom is foolishness to God, God’s wisdom is foolish to the world; but God is well pleased THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.” (1Cor1)

We choose to believe, and therefore His message becomes

wisdom; by our faith.
That’s whut it sayz…

Yes… …if… …one’s heart truly seeks after God and the Spirit. In the world of Catholicism, just like in the world of Protestantism, there are those whose hearts yearn after Him and His righteousness; and those whose hearts do not. I mean no insult to anyone, but my heart yearns to lead all others to be of the former.


The X Files presented one accurate tenet: “The truth is out there!”

I concur with you that on both sides there exist those who yearn for and seek after God… and that there are those who are costing under the impression that “Salvation” has (will be) been gained so they have conformed themselves to minimalism and flawed convictions… yet, it is Scriptures themselves that testify:

1 Brothers, if one of you misbehaves, the more spiritual of you who set him right should do so in a spirit of gentleness, not forgetting that you may be tempted yourselves. 2 You should carry each other’s troubles and fulfil the law of Christ.

(Galatians 6:1-2)

11 And to some, his gift was that they should be apostles; to some, prophets; to some, evangelists; to some, pastors and teachers; 12 so that the saints together make a unity in the work of service, building up the body of Christ. 13 In this way we are all to come to unity in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself. (Ephesians 4:11-13)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

Hello, “jc”.

I do not know how rampant this theological understanding is… but I have been engaged by several different people from different religious groups that hold the same principles… when confronted with any passage that demands "remove/change the old man (flesh) into the new man (spiritual) their interpretation is steadfast on:
6 anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him. (1 St. John 3:6a–only that portion of the verse!)
…they, of course, also reject the need to Confess our sins; they do not accept the Sacrament of Confession but ascribe their permanent ‘God’s sees our righteousness in Christ…’ (or some other similar tenet); according to their belief all of those warnings are directed towards pagans (and, I suspect, Catholics ).

Catholics recognize the truth – that we “need to confess our sins” (repent). John was clear:

“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1Jn1:8-9

Not a “license to sin”, but our weak flesh does stumble; if we continue sinning willfully we forfeit His gift of grace (Eph10:26-29). ANY sin is separation from God (James1:14-16), but if we are diligent to walk in repentance (“if we confess”) we abide in Him and we overcome sin. That’s the goal – to overcome sin, not to blithely ask forgiveness for the sin we did yesterday and the one we’re GOING to do tomorrow! That’s “two-facedness”, condemned in James1:8 & 1:23-25…

…that’s why they refuse to leave their orchestrated “playbook.” I think that they are also trained to spot those who are versed in Scriptures as they quickly want to make a next appointment with someone “more” learned in Scriptures… (Reminds me of that old war cry: “leave none alive”–though it could be movie jargon rather than actual training call.)

Our assignment is to be versed enough in Scriptures that we put walls up before their “running away”.

"You are in a hurry to leave – why? Are you afraid of the Scriptures? Is there any doubt about what they say? Until now you’ve been on a narrow boardwalk; now you’ve gotten off of the boardwalk and read verses you didn’t know were there. What are you going to do about it? Throw out what you just read and cling to the group, or are you going to be true to what God said through the Apostles?

I’ve also noted how dimmed their understanding/views are as they present themselves/organization as being the only honest agent in the world–and in spite of their claim, they embrace and cite those texts that they believe are in support their arguments… so whose pulling the wool over people’s eyes?

There is extreme “social pressure” to conform; when we begin demonstrating what Scripture really says, the truth outweighs the social pressure.

I had a kid call me from Salt Lake City, wanting to share some Bible verses. “Great! What do you have?” He shared some verses. “Those were really good, thank you! May I share some with you?”

I took him to Isaiah43 and 54, “there is no God besides Me; there was none formed before Me, and there will be no god formed after Me.”

I said, “How many gods are there?”
He said: “…uhmmmm…”

I took him to the verses that showed Jesus was GOD, and that Jesus had no beginning. For an hour and a half we were on the phone—over and over he said, “I never knew that! I never read that before!”

I said, “One day you and I will stand before God. God will not ask you about me, or about your Mom or Dad, your brothers or sisters, your elders, or anyone else; He will ask you about YOU. If you’re right, you’re right forever; if you’re wrong then you’re wrong forever. Promise me you’ll think about the verses we just discussed?”

He promised he would! :extrahappy:

That’s the goal – take them off of their carefully guided boardwalk, and get them into the rest of Scripture! When we know what Scripture says, and what they believe (and what verses they THINK support their doctrine), then we can be very dangerous towards promoting Jesus (the real Jesus!) to them!

The X Files presented one accurate tenet: “The truth is out there!”

Strange show. Did you ever see Duchovny in “Playing God”, or better “Return to Me”?

Truth is pretty strong; it doesn’t need you, and it doesn’t need me; truth stands fine all by itself.

I concur with you that on both sides there exist those who yearn for and seek after God… and that there are those who are coasting under the impression that “Salvation” has (will be) been gained so they have conformed themselves to minimalism and flawed convictions… yet, it is Scriptures themselves that testify:

1 Brothers, if one of you misbehaves, the more spiritual of you who set him right should do so in a spirit of gentleness, not forgetting that you may be tempted yourselves. 2 You should carry each other’s troubles and fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:1-2)

11 And to some, his gift was that they should be apostles; to some, prophets; to some, evangelists; to some, pastors and teachers; 12 so that the saints together make a unity in the work of service, building up the body of Christ. 13 In this way we are all to come to unity in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself. (Ephesians 4:11-13)

You are good! Once again excellent citations!

 

[jcrichton]

Catholics recognize the truth – that we “need to confess our sins” (repent). John was clear:

“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1Jn1:8-9

Not a “license to sin”, but our weak flesh does stumble; if we continue sinning willfully we forfeit His gift of grace (Eph10:26-29). ANY sin is separation from God (James1:14-16), but if we are diligent to walk in repentance (“if we confess”) we abide in Him and we overcome sin. That’s the goal – to overcome sin, not to blithely ask forgiveness for the sin we did yesterday and the one we’re GOING to do tomorrow! That’s “two-facedness”, condemned in James1:8 & 1:23-25…

Hi, G!

…it is what I find so problematic… they seem to abide in Scriptures–the tenet that Scriptures are the Authority… yet, they dismiss Scriptures the second they come to head with their denominational theologies…

…it seems to me that they are not really upholding Scriptures as the Authority but, rather, they are upholding their leadership’s interpretation of Scriptures as the Authority…

Hebrews 10:26-30 demonstrates that if there is a willful choice to commit sin Salvation is lost even to those who were initiated into the Body of Christ.

Yet, not only that but it offers a comparison on how God’s Wrath would be felt more severely by those who were fully aware of Christ Jesus as opposed for those who were merely stumbling towards the Revelation of the Messiah… I liken this to Jesus’ Warning:

…When a man has had a great deal given him, a great deal will be demanded of him; when a man has had a great deal given him on trust, even more will be expected of him.

(St. Luke 12:47-48)
…so we who profess to Know God much will be demanded of us by God; those who profess to be Teachers much more will be exacted from us:

1 Only a few of you, my brothers, should be teachers, bearing in mind that those of us who teach can expect a stricter judgement. (St. James 3:1)

Our assignment

is to be versed enough in Scriptures that we put walls up before their “running away”.

"You are in a hurry to leave – why? Are you afraid of the Scriptures? Is there any doubt about what they say? Until now you’ve been on a narrow boardwalk; now you’ve gotten off of the boardwalk and read verses you didn’t know were there. What are you going to do about it? Throw out what you just read and cling to the group, or are you going to be true to what God said through the Apostles?

There is extreme “social pressure” to conform; when we begin demonstrating what Scripture really says, the truth outweighs the social pressure.

I had a kid call me from Salt Lake City, wanting to share some Bible verses. “Great! What do you have?” He shared some verses. “Those were really good, thank you! May I share some with you?”

I took him to Isaiah43 and 54, “there is no God besides Me; there was none formed before Me, and there will be no god formed after Me.”

I said, “How many gods are there?”
He said: “…uhmmmm…”

I took him to the verses that showed Jesus was GOD, and that Jesus had no beginning. For an hour and a half we were on the phone—over and over he said, “I never knew that! I never read that before!”

I said, “One day you and I will stand before God. God will not ask you about me, or about your Mom or Dad, your brothers or sisters, your elders, or anyone else; He will ask you about YOU. If you’re right, you’re right forever; if you’re wrong then you’re wrong forever. Promise me you’ll think about the verses we just discussed?”

He promised he would!
…I get blind stares and the consummate apologetics… they cannot reconcile what I offer with the tenets of their belief/s… it seems that they don’t realize that the Word is meant to Bring us to the Fullness of Christ and that every member of His Body is responsible for the spiritual nourishment and growth of him/herself and our Christian brethren…

That’s the goal – take them off of their carefully guided boardwalk, and get them into the rest of Scripture! When we know what Scripture says, and what they believe (and what verses they THINK support their doctrine), then we can be very dangerous towards promoting Jesus (the real Jesus!) to them!

…I think that that’s very true… I’ve noticed people’s faces go through some sort of transformation… when deeply engaged… I usually get the ‘never heard/thought of it that way…’ once I was in an exchange with a “bishop;” we took a spin around the 7 Churches of the Apocalypse (Revelation); when he asked my understanding on this I shared something to the effect: ‘this admonishing is to the Church–not the physical entities listed but the Church in time… as the Church, throughout history, has engaged in both objectionable and commendable acts that reflect Jesus’ Counsel and Pronouncement… it mentions very specific communities because it is addressing the Body of Christ through these models; yet the Word of God (as His Judgment) is Transcendent.’

I got back: :ehh:

Strange show. Did you ever see Duchovny in “Playing God”, or better “Return to Me”?

Truth is pretty strong; it doesn’t need you, and it doesn’t need me; truth stands fine all by itself.

Sci fi fan-ish–have not seen them.

…yet the heart of man can purposely or unintentionally dismiss and even reject the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, G!

Hi, JCR!

…it is what I find so problematic… they seem to abide in Scriptures–the tenet that Scriptures are the Authority… yet, they dismiss Scriptures the second they come to head with their denominational theologies…

What’s happening in Calvinism, is they begin with the “four founding passages” (Rom8:29-35, Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, and Rom9:11-21). By themselves those passages seem to make a pretty good case for RT. Then Calvinists gather the 55 (ish!) Secondaries, and – the mindset established by the Primaries – all other verses, including the 55, get interpreted into “RT”. Many of those interpretations are so blatantly twisted it does cause incredulity in us.

…it seems to me that they are not really upholding Scriptures as the Authority but, rather, they are upholding their leadership’s interpretation of Scriptures as the Authority…

Beginning with the four Primaries, they get set in one direction, and really do think they are “upholding the rest”. But credibility is discarded by the stubborn mindset. Rom5 for instance:

“SO THEN all, EVEN SO …only SOME but NOT REALLY ALL!”

SO THEN all, EVEN SO not-really all? It’s so strong that it should reverse their direction. But it doesn’t; the RT momentum is so great they just plow on, as a train that has long ago run out of track!

Hebrews 10:26-30 demonstrates that if there is a willful choice to commit sin Salvation is lost even to those who were initiated into the Body of Christ.

I’ve actually heard an argument "And scorned the blood BY WHICH JESUS SANCTIFIED HIMSELF!"

Huh?! :doh2:

Jesus sanctified Himself by His own blood? No, the MAN was sanctified by Jesus’ blood, was INDWELT by Jesus, was FILLED with the Spirit, now tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit and scorns that very blood he once thought precious!

And — that man in 29, is US if we do not heed verse 26! It’s pretty solid…

Yet, not only that but it offers a comparison on how God’s Wrath would be felt more severely by those who were fully aware of Christ Jesus as opposed for those who were merely stumbling towards the Revelation of the Messiah… I liken this to Jesus’ Warning:
(St. Luke 12:47-48) (to he who is given much, is much required)
…so we who profess to Know God much will be demanded of us by God; those who profess to be Teachers much more will be exacted from us:
(James3:1 Teachers judged harsher)

But to teach correctly, is a privilege and honor. And “correctly” has to be possible – see Titus1:8, “exhort in sound doctrine & refute those who contradict”.

Hence the value of hiding the Word in our hearts!

…I get blind stares and the consummate apologetics… they cannot reconcile what I offer with the tenets of their belief/s… it seems that they don’t realize that the Word is meant to Bring us to the Fullness of Christ and that every member of His Body is responsible for the spiritual nourishment and growth of him/herself and our Christian brethren…

You know what? There is only one Savior; it ain’t me, and it ain’t you. But you and I can learn, to be better “ambassadors” for Him. The more we hide the Word in our hearts, the better our “sound doctrine” becomes.

…I think that that’s very true… I’ve noticed people’s faces go through some sort of transformation… when deeply engaged… I usually get the ‘never heard/thought of it that way…’ once I was in an exchange with a “bishop;” we took a spin around the 7 Churches of the Apocalypse (Revelation); when he asked my understanding on this I shared something to the effect: ‘this admonishing is to the Church–not the physical entities listed but the Church in time… as the Church, throughout history, has engaged in both objectionable and commendable acts that reflect Jesus’ Counsel and Pronouncement… it mentions very specific communities because it is addressing the Body of Christ through these models; yet the Word of God (as His Judgment) is Transcendent.’

I got back: :ehh:

Some things are hard to understand. In my book “Universalism” discusses two things said by Peter, are not understood by anyone. But there’s plenty enough in the rest to ruin Universalism. Another example – Pre-Tribbers cite Revelation3. Are WE “Philadelphia”? John was talking about First Century churches, wasn’t he? Maybe we fit the description; but “sound doctrine” links Rev3:10 with John17:15 (“tereo-ek” means “guard in the MIDDLE of”!), and the doctrine is more than sound enough to defeat Pre-Trib!

Sci fi fan-ish–have not seen them.

“Return to Me” is a chick flick. Starts off with his wife dying from a car wreck. A year later his friends set him up on a restaurant blind date, but she’s obnoxious. HOWEVER, he notices the waitress is really cute and sweet. After several dates, they realize that — in her heart transplant twelve months earlier, she had received the wife’s heart! The waitress’ father said, "Maybe some hearts are just meant to never leave us!"

(Hence, “return to me”!)

…yet the heart of man can purposely or unintentionally dismiss and even reject the Truth.

The more we learn, the more it all “fits together” like a giant puzzle with no missing pieces. Does Rom 10 really say those in Deuteronomy were saved by the SAME faith, as today with Jesus? Yes. Does Deut30 really say “the word of faith is in ALL hearts, both those who can confess/believe/be-saved, AND those who turn away and perish”? Yes. And it’s the same with every tenet of RT doctrine.

Exit "Sovereign Predestined Salvation!

 

[Gadgeteer]

I guess this thread has died… I hope I had something of value to add. “Refuting Reformed Theology” drew me to it, the refutations are so profound it’s astonishing how RT’s are so convinced of their doctrine no amount of Scriptures will dissuade them.

I’ve often said that there will be those who, when Jesus Himself returns and tells “how things are”, some will loudly say to His face, “NO IT’S NOT!”

But then, there is only one Savior. It’s not me, and it’s not any of you. All we’re commanded to do is to love people, and to share what we have learned. And to grow in Him so that people will see Him in us, and will want what (Who!) we have.

 

[jcrichton]

What’s happening in Calvinism, is they begin with the “four founding passages” (Rom8:29-35, Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, and Rom9:11-21)… Then Calvinists gather the 55 (ish!) Secondaries…into “RT”. Many of those interpretations are so blatantly twisted it does cause incredulity in us.

Hi!

Aren’t there more than 59 passages in Scriptures… Jesus Commends Peter and just a fraction of time later He sanctions him: ‘away from me Satan!’ …does this means that Jesus cursed/thought of Simon Peter as an agent of Satan? I cannot erect a theology around it.

…our Savior had a “savior;” am I supposed to establish a new “church” order based on the theology of the Savior’s savior?

My ego and intellect must surrender to God’s Wisdom!

Beginning with the four Primaries, they get set in one direction… But credibility is discarded by the stubborn mindset. Rom5 for instance:

"SO THEN all, EVEN SO

…only SOME but NOT REALLY ALL!"

SO THEN all, EVEN SO not-really all? It’s so strong that it should reverse their direction. But it doesn’t; the RT momentum is so great they just plow on, as a train that has long ago run out of track!


I’ve actually heard an argument "And scorned the blood BY WHICH JESUS SANCTIFIED HIMSELF!"

Huh?! :doh2:

Jesus sanctified Himself by His own blood? No, the MAN was sanctified by Jesus’ blood, was INDWELT by Jesus, was FILLED with the Spirit, now tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit and scorns that very blood he once thought precious!

And — that man in 29, is US if we do not heed verse 26! It’s pretty solid…
I’ve sometime state that the default setting for Protestantism is to protest… this goes to exactly what you are stating… going against Scriptures (protesting) on grounds on “what is understood/interpreted.” It takes everything from denial, acrobatics, and egocentrism to make the Word of God mean what man says it means, regardless of God’s Revelation!

…a few days ago I met a young man… he was friendly and very interested in sharing the Word… but I had to accept his terms: ‘all it takes for man to be saved is believe that he is because Jesus said so.’ …the engagement stopped when he offered “faith alone in the Bible…” he quickly moved on before I could expand on my reply… people are not ready to exchange Scriptures before their tenets of faith!

But to teach correctly

, is a privilege and honor. And “correctly” has to be possible – see Titus1:8, “exhort in sound doctrine & refute those who contradict”.

Hence the value of hiding the Word in our hearts!

You know what? There is only one Savior; it ain’t me, and it ain’t you. But you and I can learn, to be better “ambassadors” for Him. The more we hide the Word in our hearts, the better our “sound doctrine” becomes.
Yes, the warning is because of ego… man must remember John the Baptist’s “I must decrease…” The purpose of sharing the Word of God is to Edify the Body of Christ not to augment man. Time and again man trades in the Word rather than Build the Body. Yet, those who are true to God not only serve God but also humanity!

Some things are hard to understand. In my book “Universalism” discusses two things said by Peter, are not understood by anyone. But there’s plenty enough in the rest to ruin Universalism. Another example – Pre-Tribbers cite Revelation3. Are WE “Philadelphia”? John was talking about First Century churches,

wasn’t he? Maybe we fit the description; but “sound doctrine” links Rev3:10 with John17:15 (“tereo-ek” means “guard in the MIDDLE of”!), and the doctrine is more than sound enough to defeat Pre-Trib!
…again when we create a theology based on exclusivity… well we have an understanding that must avoid/reject the Word of God while elevating man’s understanding/interpretation of the exclusive passages.

“Return to Me” is a chick flick. Starts off with his wife dying from a car wreck. A year later his friends set him up on a restaurant blind date, but she’s obnoxious. HOWEVER, he notices the waitress

is really cute and sweet. After several dates, they realize that — in her heart transplant twelve months earlier, she had received the wife’s heart! The waitress’ father said, "Maybe some hearts are just meant to never leave us!"

(Hence, “return to me”!)…seems like a good romantic notion… though I watch for: transcendence hollowood style: no, there’s no god, but human intellect/feelings is transferable–you can live forever on paradise on earth. (yeah, I could be way critical)

The more we learn, the more it all “fits together”… Does Rom 10 really say those in Deuteronomy were saved by the SAME faith, as today with Jesus? Yes. Does Deut30 really say “the word of faith is in ALL hearts, both those who can confess/believe/be-saved, AND those who turn away and perish”? Yes. And it’s the same

with every tenet of RT doctrine.

Exit "Sovereign Predestined Salvation!
…yeah, and we keep on learning… the Holy Spirit is that Water of Life that continues to pour outward:

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Romans 10:13)
If we form our theology from this exclusive passages it could be well argued that St. Paul is contradicting Christ Who has previously stated that “not all who call Me Lord will be Saved…” Yet, if we allow for St. Paul’s expansion on vv. 14-21 we find that his Teaching mirrors Jesus’!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I guess this thread has died… I hope I had something of value to add. “Refuting Reformed Theology” drew me to it, the refutations are so profound it’s astonishing how RT’s are so convinced of their doctrine no amount of Scriptures will dissuade them.

I’ve often said that there will be those who, when Jesus Himself returns and tells “how things are”, some will loudly say to His face, “NO IT’S NOT!”

But then, there is only one Savior. It’s not me, and it’s not any of you. All we’re commanded to do is to love people, and to share what we have learned. And to grow in Him so that people will see Him in us, and will want what (Who!) we have.

Hi!

…there’s been a problem with the site… for the past few days I, and others, have not been able to log in using the links… and now there are no automatic emails… we must log on manually to the various threads or wait till the system gets up and going again.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

:tiphat:

Aren’t there more than 59 passages in Scriptures…

I’m sure there are. I only picked the main ones for my book; four are really “foundational” (Calvinists think they are absolute in teaching Predestined-Salvation), and fifty-five that seem to support the idea. The first Secondary that I discuss is 1Cor2:14; it’s so rock-solidly NOT Predestinary, that there is no defense, no denial. I wrote something like, “It should not be perceived that there are only fifty-five Secondaries—any additional verses which may be proposed towards Sovereign Predestined Salvation should be examined with the same approach, read the context (both near and far) and go to the Greek or Hebrew as necessary. And don’t dismiss all of the “OSNAS” verses! Everything has to fit, nothing can be thrown away.”

Jesus Commends Peter and just a fraction of time later He sanctions him: ‘away from me satan!’ …does this means that Jesus cursed/thought of Simon Peter as an agent of satan? I cannot erect a theology around it.

That’s right.

RE “Peter” and RT — please see Luke22:31-32:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Does this sound like Jesus didn’t really think Peter could apostatize? “Turned-again” — epistrepho – a true spiritual turning. If one has never really turned AWAY, then how could he turn BACK?

…our Savior had a “savior;” am I supposed to establish a new “church” order based on the theology of the Savior’s savior?

My ego and intellect must surrender to God’s Wisdom!

The more we fill our hearts with His word, the more our doctrine becomes “sound” – Titus1:8…

I’ve sometime state that the default setting for Protestantism is to protest… this goes to exactly what you are stating… going against Scriptures (protesting) on grounds on “what is understood/interpreted.” It takes everything from denial, acrobatics, and egocentrism to make the Word of God mean what man says it means, regardless of God’s Revelation!

The question is — can we be objective about Scriptural meaning, and overcome our subjectivity? As we’ve discussed, most all RT’s take 1Cor2:14 to mean “God must change their hearts FIRST (giving them understanding), only then can they believe and be saved”. But verse 12 says they must receive the Spirit (be saved!) before they get that understanding. What is the objective meaning, and what is the subjective? Clearly, RT’s understanding violates what Paul wrote; “saved-before-understanding” is the only possible objectivity.

So “objectivity” is provable, and not just because of someone’s say-so…

…a few days ago I met a young man… he was friendly and very interested in sharing the Word… but I had to accept his terms: ‘all it takes for man to be saved is believe that he is because Jesus said so.’ …the engagement stopped when he offered “faith alone in the Bible…” he quickly moved on before I could expand on my reply… people are not ready to exchange Scriptures before their tenets of faith!

Technically he was right (Acts16:31) — but without the other verses (like James2:14-19, and the “won’t-inherit” verses like 1Cor6:9-11 & Eph5:5-6 & Gal5:19-21), he clearly misses the reality that saving faith can NOT exist ALONE…

Faith which produces no good works IS DEAD (unsaved!)…

While we are not saved by works, good works are inseparable from true saved faith. This mirrors what Jesus said (Matt7) “no good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good fruit”…

Yes, the warning is because of ego… man must remember John the Baptist’s “I must decrease…” The purpose of sharing the Word of God is to Edify the Body of Christ not to augment man. Time and again man trades in the Word rather than Build the Body. Yet, those who are true to God not only serve God but also humanity!

Amen.

…again when we create a theology based on exclusivity… well we have an understanding that must avoid/reject the Word of God while elevating man’s understanding/interpretation of the exclusive passages.

Remember my story of a Calvinistic-Baptist preacher here? "You can have the last word; I must spend my time with those more interested in WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS…"

Huh?! When I was trying to hold HIM to 1Cor2:12? And HE WOULDN’T ENGAGE IT!

(Someone remind me the meaning of “hypocrisy”???)

…yeah, and we keep on learning… the Holy Spirit is that Water of Life that continues to pour outward:
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

That verse is in my book’s appendix, “THOSE WHO”. Time after time personal salvation is couched as “those who”, never as “God who”. None of those verses fit with “God decides salvation or perishing, unilaterally”…

If we form our theology from this exclusive passages it could be well argued that St. Paul is contradicting Christ Who has previously stated that “not all who call Me Lord will be Saved…” Yet, if we allow for St. Paul’s expansion on vv. 14-21 we find that his Teaching mirrors Jesus’!

Jesus’ words explain, “only those who DO the will of the Father” – merely calling Him “Master” doesn’t make it so; our actions expose whether we really have Him as Lord and Master, or not…

 

[Gadgeteer]

…there’s been a problem with the site… for the past few days I, and others, have not been able to log in using the links… and now there are no automatic emails… we must log on manually to the various threads or wait till the system gets up and going again.

Ah – I didn’t know that. I was operating from the “subscriptions” screen, and didn’t see a problem…

 

[jcrichton]

I’m sure there are. I only picked the main ones for my book; four are really “foundational” (Calvinists think they are absolute in teaching Predestined-Salvation), and fifty-five that seem to support the idea… And don’t dismiss all of the “OSNAS” verses! Everything has to fit, nothing can be thrown away."

Hi!

I meant that by sticking to only 59 premises/tenets they basically gutted the Word of God, which they claim to uphold as their foundation of faith–hence the comparisons that followed… sorry, for not being clear enough…

RE “Peter” and RT — please see Luke22:31-32:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Does this sound like Jesus didn’t really think Peter could apostatize? “Turned-again” — epistrepho – a true spiritual turning. If one has never really turned AWAY, then how could he turn BACK?
…not only St. Peter but the other Ten–notice that the Command is to “Strengthen;” all of the Eleven were under attack!

Still, this is similar to John 15:1-10: The Disciples (except for the “son of perdition”) were cleansed (“Saved”) by Jesus’ Word but they had to remain/abide in Jesus (Walk in the Light, not just claim the Light)… both passages demonstrate that man must cooperate with God’s Gift and that it is ultimately man who chooses to abide/remain in God or reject Salvation!

…Titus1:8…

The question is — can we be objective about Scriptural meaning, and overcome our subjectivity? As we’ve discussed, most all RT’s take 1Cor2:14 to mean “God must change their hearts FIRST (giving them understanding), only then can they believe and be saved”

. But verse 12 says they must receive the Spirit (be saved!) before they get that understanding. What is the objective meaning, and what is the subjective? Clearly, RT’s understanding violates what Paul wrote; “saved-before-understanding” is the only possible objectivity.

So “objectivity” is provable, and not just because of someone’s say-so…

Technically he was right (Acts16:31) — but without the other verses (like James2:14-19, and the “won’t-inherit” verses like 1Cor6:9-11 & Eph5:5-6 & Gal5:19-21), he clearly misses the reality that saving faith can NOT exist ALONE…

Faith which produces no good works IS DEAD (unsaved!)…

While we are not saved by works, good works are inseparable from true saved faith. This mirrors what Jesus said (Matt7) “no good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good fruit”…
It is interesting that you brought up Titus 1:8… because this passage (including vv. 7 & 9) demonstrate why there is so much problem with man’s constructed theologies:

7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God

; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. (Titus 1:7-9)
Stewards of God… we. each of us (Believers) are partakers in God’s Creation through stewardship (our freewill cooperating with God’s Will); we, the Believers, must hold fast to Apostolic Teaching–creating and following trendy theologies is not a Call to the Faithful!

This is mirrored by other passages that clearly demonstrate that the Church was assailed, from her infancy, by those who choose to reject God’s Design (2 St. Peter 2:1-22; St. Jude 1:3-24; Galatians 1:6-12 & Matthew 7:15-27); redesigning the Gospel of Salvation only leads away from God’s Revealed Design.

…so it is not about what “we” interpret or understand… it is about God’s Revelation.

Where in Scriptures did Jesus state: “you only need to Believe?”

Though there is that statement: “if you Believe;” yet, that statement is attached to a bunch of engagements of our freewill: Love Me; Obey My Word; Obey My Command; Do; Do not; Abide: Stand; Witness… Jesus did not offer a simplistic formula: ‘Salvation is easy… do just this one thing and you got eternal life!’

Remember the rich young man? He fell short of Salvation (though he called Jesus Lord) because he refused to Obey Christ and take Him at His Command: ‘Come, and Follow Me!’

Remember my story of a Calvinistic-Baptist preacher here? "You can have the last word; I must spend my time with those more interested in WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS…"

Huh?! When I was trying to hold HIM to 1Cor2:12? And HE WOULDN’T ENGAGE IT!

(Someone remind me the meaning of “hypocrisy”???)
…that’s one of the mayor problems with selectivity… everything must comply to the model or be rejected/ignored… it’s like having that bucket with the hole in it and attempting to transfer the ocean’s water from point a to “x”.

That verse is in my book’s appendix, “THOSE WHO”. Time after time personal salvation is couched as “those who”, never as “God who”. None of those verses fit with “God decides salvation or perishing, unilaterally”…

Jesus’ words explain, “only those who DO the will of the Father” – merely calling

Him “Master” doesn’t make it so; our actions expose whether we really have Him as Lord and Master, or not…
It is an exercise in freewill: man cooperates with Grace (Salvation) or does not–either “choice” demonstrate an act of *man *,not God, deeply intertwined with man’s own Salvation or damnation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I meant that by sticking to only 59 premises/tenets they basically gutted the Word of God, which they claim to uphold as their foundation of faith–hence the comparisons that followed…

I acknoweldge that by themselves, the four “Primaries” (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, and Rom9:11-21) make a pretty good case for “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”. But they are not by themselves. I state in the book that with many doctrines you can’t deal with just one or two verses; adherents will shrug and cling to the dozens of others they still hold in their arms. You have to take on the whole construct, verse by verse, until they realize their arms are EMPTY

sorry, for not being clear enough…

Ahhh, ya’ did good.

…not only St. Peter but the other Ten–notice that the Command is to “Strengthen;” all of the Eleven were under attack!

Still, this is similar to John 15:1-10: The Disciples (except for the “son of perdition”) were cleansed (“Saved”) by Jesus’ Word but they had to remain/abide in Jesus (Walk in the Light, not just claim the Light)… both passages demonstrate that man must cooperate with God’s Gift and that it is ultimately man who chooses to abide/remain in God or reject Salvation!

Do you really think Judas was never-saved? I’ve argued that idea with Protestants. John17:12 Jesus says He LOST Judas (says He guarded them, and none perished except Judas). Jn6:70 Jesus says “He chose all twelve of them”, which implies Jn15:16 that Judas was chosen to bear good fruit the same as the rest. And – Jn6:67-70 has Jesus holding up Judas in opposition to Peter’s protests:

Jesus to the 12: “You aren’t going to leave too, ARE you!”
Peter: “We know You’re the Messiah; where would we go?”
Jesus: “I chose all twelve of you, and one of you is a devil…”

That makes no sense unless Judas really was saved, and Jesus used him to show Peter “leaving is possible”. What else could Jesus have meant?

BTW, you’re right that we have to “cooperate and abide”. Golly, how can we read verses like 1Tim4:16 and think otherwise? What do you think of Galatians 4:9 “you were KNOWN by God, but turn back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again”. 5:7 “you WERE running well and obeying the truth, who hindered you?” And 5:4, “you are severed/separated from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE”!

It is interesting that you brought up Titus 1:8… because this passage (including vv. 7 & 9) demonstrate why there is so much problem with man’s constructed theologies:

Stewards of God… we. each of us (Believers) are partakers in God’s Creation through stewardship (our freewill cooperating with God’s Will); we, the Believers, must hold fast to Apostolic Teaching–creating and following trendy theologies is not a Call to the Faithful!

It has to mean every bit of that. Jude – “building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in the love of God!”

Revelation3 — “he WHO overcomes I will not BLOT from My Book of Life”. 12, “he who overcomes I will make a pillar” — 22, “he who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me”. And 11, "So HOLD FAST to what you have so that no one will steal your crown!"

Is it just me, or is this very clear?

 

[Gadgeteer]

This is mirrored by other passages that clearly demonstrate that the Church was assailed, from her infancy, by those who choose to reject God’s Design (2 St. Peter 2:1-22; St. Jude 1:3-24; Galatians 1:6-12 & Matthew 7:15-27); redesigning the Gospel of Salvation only leads away from God’s Revealed Design.

Good citations!

…so it is not about what “we” interpret or understand… it is about God’s Revelation.

Where in Scriptures did Jesus state: “you only need to Believe?”

In places like Jn8:24 Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” But Jesus also said, “you must be born/begotten from above”. Yes only belief saves us, but not MERE belief (Jms2:19) – only the kind of belief that unites intimately with Jesus; a true indwelt fellowship of love. (And it’s the kind of belief that unavoidably results in good works…)

Though there is that statement: “if you Believe;” yet, that statement is attached to a bunch of engagements of our freewill: Love Me; Obey My Word; Obey My Command; Do; Do not; Abide: Stand; Witness… Jesus did not offer a simplistic formula: ‘Salvation is easy… do just this one thing and you got eternal life!’

The only question is which comes first – do we (like all the other religions) strive to obey/witness/do-good-deeds to BE saved? Or is salvation a real union with Jesus, His indwelling presence and the Spirit’s indwelling presence then leading us into doing good deeds? Religion is all about “you are what you do”; Christianity is different — He says "I will CHANGE your hearts, therefore you do what you NOW ARE!"

And that fits Philip2:12-13 perfectly, “WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.”

He works through our continued faith. I wish more people would embrace Rom1:16 — the commentaries explain “from faith-the-start to faith-the-goal” — “The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; the righteous shall live BY faith!”

See Gal3:3, “having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending in the flesh”? It is important how we begin, but it is critical how we END. In between, is His power, through our diligence. His strength, through our faith. His salvation, through our abiding-in-Him!

Remember the rich young man? He fell short of Salvation (though he called Jesus Lord) because he refused to Obey Christ and take Him at His Command: ‘Come, and Follow Me!’

In Rom10:9-10 we confess Jesus as Lord, and believe He died for us. “Lord”, is kurios — Master. Is He Master of those who do not fully submit to Him?

…that’s one of the major problems with selectivity… everything must comply to the model or be rejected/ignored… it’s like having that bucket with the hole in it and attempting to transfer the ocean’s water from point a to “x”.

Yes.

It is an exercise in freewill: man cooperates with Grace (Salvation) or does not–either “choice” demonstrate an act of *man *,not God, deeply intertwined with man’s own Salvation or damnation.

And not just once, but continuously. See Col2:6-8 (“as you have received Jesus, so walk in Him”) — and Eph4, Col3 “lay aside the old sinful man, put on the new godly man”! You – do this, continuously!

 

[jcrichton]

IDo you really think Judas was never-saved? I’ve argued that idea with Protestants. John17:12 Jesus says He LOST Judas (says He guarded them, and none perished except Judas). Jn6:70 Jesus says “He chose all twelve of them”, which implies Jn15:16 that Judas was chosen to bear good fruit the same as the rest. And – Jn6:67-70 has Jesus holding up Judas in opposition to Peter’s protests:

Jesus to the 12: “You aren’t going to leave too, ARE you!”
Peter: “We know You’re the Messiah; where would we go?”
Jesus: “I chose all twelve of you, and one of you is a devil…”

That makes no sense unless Judas really was saved, and Jesus used him to show Peter “leaving is possible”. What else could Jesus have meant?

Hi!

…this is one of those issues that I think I’m the only one running with it…

I think that it would have been impossible for Judas to betray Jesus if he was “saved” (Hebrews 6:4-6), remain stuck to the world, then gain the enlightenment that he in deed betrayed God’s Just (presumably this would have been known to him already), not enjoy the money of his ill-gains, have remorse, and then kill himself out of sheer impotence.

…as for Jesus’ terminology… it’s difficult to tell… though I would consider the challenge to be more towards Simon’s self-assuredness rather than Judas’ backsliding.

…consider the fact that Judas betrayal did not happen in a vacuum; rather, it was a common theme… can you imagine one who is Saved to hear Jesus tell him/her to his face ‘you, who are eating-nay, dipping your bread with Me, are the betrayer.’

Judas could not but betray Jesus (prophecy) thusly, he could not but have remained in disbelief till the act had been consummated!

BTW, you’re right that we have to “cooperate and abide”. Golly, how can we read verses like 1Tim4:16 and think otherwise? What do you think of Galatians 4:9 “you were KNOWN by God, but turn back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again”. 5:7 “you WERE running well and obeying the truth, who hindered you?” And 5:4, “you are severed/separated from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE”!

It has to mean every bit of that. Jude – “building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in the love of God!”

Revelation3 — “he WHO overcomes I will not BLOT from My Book of Life”. 12, “he who overcomes I will make a pillar” — 22, “he who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me”. And 11, "So HOLD FAST to what you have so that no one will steal your crown!"

Is it just me, or is this very clear?
…I think that it deals with humility:

10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

(St. James 4:10)

18 Let no man deceive himself: if any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Let no man therefore glory in men. (1 Corinthians 3:18-21)
There are people who do not accept the Bible as the Word of God; there are people who reject the New Testament as the Word of God; there are people who reject the existence of God… so it is not hard to understand that there will be those who rather than engage the Truth would put on blinders… sadly, there are those who have been led by the blind–Jesus spoke of them… so our job is to preach and pray!

Bring the Good News to all, near and far!

Maran atha!

Angel