Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[De_Maria]

Again, how I understand James2, along with Rom4, is that “we are not justified by works, else we would have something to brag about”. So when James says “you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone” (verse 24), but says it in context with citing Rom4:3

He was citing Genesis 15:6. Romans 4:3 did not exist yet.

(Abraham believed, and it was reckoned as righteousness [justification]) — verse 23 — the only way all that fits is if “true faith produces good works”.

True. But he expresses his thought as, “a man is justified by works”. Thus, he says, because works make faith perfect, a man is justified by works.

And that is what James said — “Abraham’s faith was working with his works, and as a result (his) faith was perfected.”

2 things.

1. As you have proved, St. James had no problem saying that we are justified by works. You seem to believe that anyone who expresses this concept, should have their mouth washed with soap.

I have no problem with the concept since Scripture is replete with the idea.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall **save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
**

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1. Romans 4 is not the sum total of Scripture. You might want to venture out of Romans 4 and see that there are many places where Scripture speaks of justification by faith and works.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

:tiphat:

Exactly! God would have to be the sickest sadist ever… to force His Creation to wickedness then exact Judgment on their inability to remove themselves from such wickedness… all the while “saving” those who may not even want to embrace righteousness and forcing these to exist, in perpetuity, in His Righteous Presence!

It’s much more insidious than that. In whatever view of “Predestined Salvation” one has, God ordains sin! God in whom there is no sin, God who hates sin, the faintest whiff of sin is a foul stench before Him (only washed clean by Jesus’ blood can we be invited behind the veil into God’s very presence), God ordained and purposed most men to be sinful? :banghead::dts:

Then it continues to get worse, and more heinous and insidious — we are to preach the Gospel to all, to “save others snatching them from the fire”. But there’s God behind the curtains pulling everyone’s strings, orchestrating and puppeteering all. Jesus died on the Cross not really to save anyone (because salvation was all ordained long before Creation), but only to ORCHESTRATE (pageantry!!!) what God scripted before! The whole Creation is no more than a screenplay, God is only THEATER, the Judgment is an empty facade, and nothing matters because those who are going to perish are going to perish and those who are going to live are going to live.

WHAT’S THE POINT of ANYTHING?

Correct, our Salvation is dependent upon our response to God’s Call; yet, the point is that all are Called to Jesus by God–the Will of Yahweh God is that all be Saved; conversely, it is up to man’s will to humbly engage and accept God’s Will.

The entire thing is LOVE. “God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.”

In the book I wrote, I have an appendix “THOSE WHO” — listing dozens of verses which cast personal salvation in terms of “those who”; and then I look up “GOD who” and find no verses speaking of personal salvation.

…I wonder why the Apostles and so many others got it so wrong?

…in Catholic speak, it is the sin of Presumption (believing that one has obtained/gained Salvation on the wrong merits); the Jehovah Witness are kin at this… they rely on their "scholars’ and theologians’ skills rather than in the Word of God.

Which is why it’s so useful to actually SHOW them verses from the book they carry!

But first you have to get past their fear and flight — they WILL run away.

1. “You carry that book around with you; do you believe it?” (They have to answer “yes”.)
2. “Do you follow it?” (They have to answer “yes”!)

And then they’re stuck; because if they run away NOW, they are denying the very text on which they purport to base their doctrine! Ask those two questions and they WILL listen — and given the proper verses, all they can say is: “…uhhhhh…”

…and how can Love Condemn to eternal Damnation those who are “predestined” to an unrighteous existence while dangling Christ Jesus over their heads, as the carrot they will never be able to obtain?

…wouldn’t that be the direct and opposite meaning of Love?

…so, basically, Reformed Theology’s pronouncement is that God is Hatred and Vengeance, and Deceit!

That is exactly it.

You said above that “God saves those who may not even want to embrace righteousness and forcing these to exist, in perpetuity, in His Righteous Presence!”

That’s not really how they view it. “Monergism” (sovereign unilateral heart-change) is more like a LOBOTOMY — He zaps their hearts with regeneration so that belief and loving God is irresistible.

(Goodness, if only I could do that with that cute girl I like, but right now she can’t stand the sight of me!)

And so many verses simply violate all of that.

1. If no one ever WANTS to turn to God or righteousness without monergistic heart-change, how do you explain those in Luke8:13 who believed joyfully — which you say no one can do without sovereign election, but then because they turned away you say they were never TRULY elect and did not REALLY WANT God or righteousness?
2. God is LOVE (1Jn4:16), but in RT God is HATE to most, and to those He sovereignly new-hearts to love Him He’s absolutely not “love”!
3. God so loved the WORLD – in what Universe can that be rewritten into "God so loved only a few favorites He created to BE loved, the rest He never loved and never intended them to be anything but wicked and furnace fuel? :bigyikes:

I pray that such understanding be removed from man’s heart and spirit!

There are none so blind as those who WILL not see. Therefore our sacred and solemn charge is to be infinitely patient, infinitely loving, and infinitely directed by God, with kindness and patience confronting their doctrine with precise Scriptures, one by one; until they realize the solid structure they once cherished is GONE, disassembled brick by brick with “sound Scripture”. Only THEN will they reconsider Reformed Theology. But even before they will, there still is pride (ego investment) where admitting RT violates all of Scripture will be terribly embarrassing…

…guess I can it an:

Amen, brother!

:hug3:

 

[jcrichton]

It’s much more insidious than that. In whatever view of “Predestined Salvation” one has, God ordains sin! God in whom there is no sin, God who hates sin, the faintest whiff of sin is a foul stench before Him (only washed clean by Jesus’ blood can we be invited behind the veil into God’s very presence), God ordained and purposed most men to be sinful? :banghead::dts:

Then it continues to get worse, and more heinous and insidious — we are to preach the Gospel to all, to “save others snatching them from the fire”. But there’s God behind the curtains pulling everyone’s strings, orchestrating and puppeteering all. Jesus died on the Cross not really to save anyone (because salvation was all ordained long before Creation), but only to ORCHESTRATE (pageantry!!!) what God scripted before! The whole Creation is no more than a screenplay, God is only THEATER, the Judgment is an empty facade, and nothing matters because those who are going to perish are going to perish and those who are going to live are going to live.

WHAT’S THE POINT of ANYTHING?

Hi, Gadgeteer!

How can RTs miss it? Why would Jesus Found His Church and Command His Apostles to Preach the Gospel to all nations, to make disciples of all, and to Baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… all out of pure sterility?

…the only thing I can think of is the Garden of Eden… 'surely, you will not die."

How is it that man is so quick to listen to the creature rather than the Creator?

The entire thing is LOVE. “God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.”

In the book I wrote, I have an appendix “THOSE WHO” — listing dozens of verses which cast personal salvation in terms of “those who”; and then I look up “GOD who” and find no

verses speaking of personal salvation.

…I wonder why the Apostles and so many others got it so wrong?
…well, actually there are a few passages about it… they involve the Name Jesus (Yahweh Saves); so yep, they might be partially right… Jesus is the God Who Saves… but the problem is that He Saves all not just a predestined group… so even if they were to argue about this issue they must remove from Scriptures every single passage that demonstrate that very precise relationship:

12 But to all who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to all who believe in the name of him 13 who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself.

14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son.

(St. John 1:12-13; 3:14-18)
…which brings us back to your argument… not a single “God Who Saves a predestined sort…”

That is exactly it.

You said above that “God saves those who may not even want to embrace righteousness and forcing these to exist, in perpetuity, in His Righteous Presence!”

That’s not really how they view it. “Monergism” (sovereign unilateral heart-change) is more like a LOBOTOMY — He zaps their hearts with regeneration so that belief and loving God is irresistible.

(Goodness, if only I could do that with that cute girl I like, but right now she can’t stand the sight of me!)

And so many verses simply violate all of that.

1. If no one ever WANTS to turn to God or righteousness without monergistic heart-change, how do you explain those in Luke8:13 who believed joyfully — which you say no one can do without sovereign election, but then because they turned away you say they were never TRULY elect and did not REALLY WANT God or righteousness?
2. God is LOVE (1Jn4:16), but in RT God is HATE to most, and to those He sovereignly new-hearts to love Him He’s absolutely not “love”!
3. God so loved the WORLD – in what Universe can that be rewritten into "God so loved only a few favorites He created to BE loved, the rest He never loved and never intended them to be anything but wicked and furnace fuel? :bigyikes:
   …isn’t that based on the Stepford Wives? …so basically God cuts out of man his “freewill,” stuffs him with “love me” controlling jell, and then is pleased with Himself because those who He forcefully compelled to “love Him” are actually manipulated into “loving Him.”

Wow, talk about making God into an impotent bodysnatching-sadist-puppeteer!

There are none so blind as those who WILL not see… THEN will they reconsider Reformed Theology. But even before they will, there still is pride (ego investment) where admitting RT violates all of Scripture will be terribly embarrassing…

:hug3:
…yeah, I think that “ego trip” is the hardest nut to crack… I once had a person argue over OSAS theology… he was clearly under the influence… but insisted that no sin could remove his/their “Salvation” 'cause Christ already paid for all of their sins (past, present and future)…

It’s too bad all sinners don’t take God on such marvelous “sin-as-you-want” offer of Salvation!

…then they will trump that with “only the elect/predestined” are saved–what a wonderful place to be… knowing “you” are part of the “saved no matter what!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, the point is that the term missing was “graven;” the same God that forbade "graven: images also Commanded that images and symbols be made part of the Worship experience… so clearly it was “graven” images that were forbidden… interestingly enough, man holds many things above God as he places his attention/love on himself, his family, his possessions, wealth, power, and feelings… all idols; all “graven images.”

…as the Cherubs, the Church uses Sacramentals to bring us closer to God; remember those stained windows… when the majority of people were illiterate, the Church sought a means to convey the pages of Sacred Scriptures and Church history through the depictions on stained glass!

Sayyyy — speaking of “graven” — are CHRISTMAS TREES forbidden???

"Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified by them;
For the customs of the peoples are delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
“They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter…” Jeremiah 10:1-4

:christmastree1::nope::bighanky:

Actually, they were worshiping the trees. Our present-day festivity is far removed from such thangs. For those who refuse celebrations of Christmas, it is our “foot-in-the-door”. As long as there are Christmas tunes, we shall be singing “JOY TO THE WORLD, THE LORD HAS COME!” As long as there are Christmas sales, we will sing “Away in a Manger”! As long as there are Christmas lights and sparkling trees and Santa Claus, we will tell them of the First Gift of Christmas! This is our “thorn in the side of evil”, this is an opportunity to tell them the real meaning of the Season!

(If no one has guessed, I’m a bit of a fanatic about Christmas…)

Correct! Espousing works to Faith demonstrates that we are in deed Walking in the Light.

“You will KNOW them by their fruits!” (Matt7:14-16)

This is the saddest part of Christendom; too many times in our zealousness to Serve God we lose sight of the righteousness that is demanded from us as we focus on our practices or engage in omissions.

Behind all of that, is the intimacy of UNION with our real, personal, Creator. What tragedy should we pursue righteousness, without engaging His person.

It is as featured in the movie, “Timechanger” — how useless is it to pursue the teachings of the Lord, without the Lord of the teachings!

…clearly, the Word of God evade us as we fail to apply it to ourselves:

…we may ignore the WARNINGS… but the useless servants will be cut off!

In all these things, as James said — “Submit yourselves therefore to God; (resist the devil and he will flee); draw near to God, and HE will draw near to YOU!”

Enter within the veil, all who claim the title of “Christian”, and embrace God’s cherishing of YOUR fellowship, and cherish His presence too!

 

[Gadgeteer]

He was citing Genesis 15:6. Romans 4:3 did not exist yet.

Okay.

…and, Abraham’s belief was reckoned as justification. Thas’ whut it sayz… :yup:

True. But he expresses his thought as, “a man is justified by works”. Thus, he says, because works make faith perfect, a man is justified by works.

Agreed — justified by works indirectly, works improve faith, justification is “reckoned because of belief”.

Technically “by faith alone”, but Catholics are right who say “true faith is never alone…”

2 things.

1. As you have proved, St. James had no problem saying that we are justified by works. You seem to believe that anyone who expresses this concept, should have their mouth washed with soap.

Noooo, Catholics are 100% right that “there is no justification in faith alone, when faith is not followed by good works”…

I have no problem with the concept since Scripture is replete with the idea.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall **save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
**

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1. Romans 4 is not the sum total of Scripture. You might want to venture out of Romans 4 and see that there are many places where Scripture speaks of justification by faith and works.

My only point was that justification was a “done deal” by Jesus, finished upon the Cross; as Paul says in 1Cor6:11, “we were justified by Jesus’ name and the Spirit”. Were, done deal, when we believed.

…and (where you and I will agree), it is a place in which we must ABIDE. Therefore your words of “we-are-being-justified”, do parallel what I’m saying “we-must-abide-in-Him-and-in-justification”…

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yes; and — Rev20:13 “we will will be judged by our deeds”. But, only not being written in His BOOK (Rev20:15) is the only thing that bars us from Heaven.

Deeds display whether a heart was saved, or was not. Good deeds don’t actually save us (opposite to all religions), evil deeds don’t actually condemn us. (Same in Rom2:4-11…)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

How can RTs miss it? Why would Jesus Found His Church and Command His Apostles to Preach the Gospel to all nations, to make disciples of all, and to Baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… all out of pure sterility?

If you’ll allow me to be blunt, and perhaps a little abrasive — Scripture is all about knowing the true God (Jn17:3), intimately fellowshiping with Him in the persons of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Those who perceive Him as callous hypocritical and even a trifle wicked — do you really believe they experience true fellowship with Him? I would never say that to a Calvinist to his or her face, but privately I really believe He is impersonal to them!

…the only thing I can think of is the Garden of Eden… 'surely, you will not die."

Yes. “Not-really-die”, in that salvation becomes more of a golden ticket, and we don’t have to be bothered “opening the door so He can come in and sup with us!” (Rev3:20)

How is it that man is so quick to listen to the creature rather than the Creator?

Again – risking being too blunt and abrasive, because they want to stay in control? :yup:

…well, actually there are a few passages about it… they involve the Name Jesus (Yahweh Saves); so yep, they might be partially right… Jesus is the God Who Saves… but the problem is that He Saves all not just a predestined group… so even if they were to argue about this issue they must remove from Scriptures every single passage that demonstrate that very precise relationship:

Look at exactly what you quoted — Jn10:12, THOSE WHO believe consequently gain the right/power to believe. “Exousia”, power-of-choice, permission. Mirrored in Rev22:14:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Same word — “may have the right”; after they believe, after they wash their robes. Mirrored in 2Tim2:12, “if anyone CLEANSES HIMSELF …he will be a vessel of honor to the Master…”

And you quoted Jn3:14-18, clearly saying “THOSE WHO” — nowhere does it speak of personal salvation in terms of “GOD WHO”. The places that say “God who”, assert a universal offer. Never exclusive. GOD WHO (all), and THOSE WHO (believe are saved).

…which brings us back to your argument… not a single “God Who Saves a predestined sort…”

'Zactly.

…isn’t that based on the Stepford Wives?

One or two? The second one (actually, “REVENGE of the Stepford Wives”, there was a more recent #3!) — the wives weren’t actually killed but reprogrammed, and eventually were able to overcome their programming and reclaim their personalities…

…so basically God cuts out of man his “freewill,” stuffs him with “love me” controlling jell, and then is pleased with Himself because those who He forcefully compelled to “love Him” are actually manipulated into “loving Him.”

Yeah, pretty amazing, isn’t it? What do you think about what I said about, “they want to retain control”?

Wow, talk about making God into an impotent bodysnatching-sadist-puppeteer!

Yup. Certainly not “LOVE” — not to those He ordained to be wicked (He is HATE), and not to those He lobotomizes (no one who loves another will lobotomize them in order to be loved back!).

As you said, “Stepford Wives” — more “Revenge Of”, movie #2…

…yeah, I think that “ego trip” is the hardest nut to crack… I once had a person argue over OSAS theology… he was clearly under the influence… but insisted that no sin could remove his/their “Salvation” 'cause Christ already paid for all of their sins (past, present and future)…

Goodness — charging God with “fraudulence/hypocrisy/domination” is really blasphemy, it’s almost as bad to promote ANTINOMIANISM (which is what your friend was really doing!)

It’s too bad all sinners don’t take God on such marvelous “sin-as-you-want” offer of Salvation!

Three OSAS views:

1. Antinomianism (sin all you want, we’ll make more salvation!)
2. Eternal Security (anyone can be saved, can’t fall out)
3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (everything ordained beforehand by God)

#3 is the most insidious, because it fully charges God with causality in sin. “Compatibilism” is not sufficient to insulate God from His wickedness.

#1 denies all of Scripture; especially passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10. But then #2 and #3 are often heard to say “backslidden-but-saved”, which charges God with IGNORING sin in His children while condemning sin in the rest! This is 100% accusing God of HYPOCRISY!

…then they will trump that with “only the elect/predestined” are saved–what a wonderful place to be… knowing “you” are part of the “saved no matter what!”

Ha! They cannot know!

Ask any RT how he knows that he’s really a Fifteener (Lk8:15), “truly elected”, and not just a falsely-believing Thirteener (“cruelly-rejected” – Lk8:13) who only THINKS he’s saved but isn’t! And the only response he can make, is something like “The Spirit tells me!”

So too said the Thirteeners, at first — they BELIEVED JOYFULLY, they would completely have said “The Spirit confirms it”!

And there it is – no RT can ever say for certain he or she is saved and really belongs to Jesus, until his or her very last breath on Earth, proving by perseverance they’re a truly-elected FIFTEENER and a cruelly-rejected THIRTEENER!

He can’t know! (Violation of much of Scripture; especially 1Jn5:11-13, “You can know!”)

Why are there still RT’s?

 

[De_Maria]

My only point was that justification was a “done deal” by Jesus, finished upon the Cross; as Paul says in 1Cor6:11, “we were justified by Jesus’ name and the Spirit”. Were, done deal, when we believed.

If that was what St. Paul meant, why does he later say:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

…and (where you and I will agree), it is a place in which we must ABIDE.

We do agree. But that means that it wasn’t a completely “done deal”. In order for it to become a done deal, “we must abide”.

Therefore your words of “we-are-being-justified”, do parallel what I’m saying “we-must-abide-in-Him-and-in-justification”…

I agree.

Yes; and — Rev20:13 “we will will be judged by our deeds”. But, only not being written in His BOOK (Rev20:15) is the only thing that bars us from Heaven.

Well, it’s both. Because Scripture says that we are judged by our deeds. We can’t deny these words.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Deeds display whether a heart was saved, or was not.

Well, I would say that differently. Deeds display whether a heart was converted or not. A heart must continue in good deeds, in order to be saved:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Good deeds don’t actually save us (opposite to all religions), evil deeds don’t actually condemn us. (Same in Rom2:4-11…)

Actually, it’s both/and.

Scripture says:

1 Timothy 4:16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

We must do our part, to be saved.

I look at it like this. Let’s say a man is caught in a deluge. He’s being swept away by the current. A rescuer throws out a lifesaver tethered to a rope, but it’s not long enough.

In order for that man to be saved, he’ll have to swim to the lifesaver. Once he gets there, he’ll have to hang on (i.e. abide) as he is being pulled to safety.

I feel like this is a great metaphor for what Christ has done for us. He saved us, so that we could save ourselves.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

Matthew 10:38 and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

 

[jcrichton]

Sayyyy — speaking of “graven” — are CHRISTMAS TREES forbidden???

"Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified by them;
For the customs of the peoples are delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
“They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter…” Jeremiah 10:1-4

:christmastree1::nope::bighanky:

Actually, they were worshiping the trees. Our present-day festivity is far removed from such thangs. For those who refuse celebrations of Christmas, it is our “foot-in-the-door”. As long as there are Christmas tunes, we shall be singing “JOY TO THE WORLD, THE LORD HAS COME!” As long as there are Christmas sales, we will sing “Away in a Manger”! As long as there are Christmas lights and sparkling trees and Santa Claus, we will tell them of the First Gift of Christmas! This is our “thorn in the side of evil”, this is an opportunity to tell them the real meaning of the Season!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah… that’s the big flaw in legalism… we can work against God while thinking that we are being led by Him… ('they will put you to death…")

…I remember one non-Catholic site that I used to visit… some wanted to do away with both the Church and Christmas… after all, wasn’t that a pagan thing to do (celebrate Christ’s birthday)? …and isn’t that a pagan practice/worship (gathering together and trees [Christ-mas trees])? How can a Christian Be Christian without Celebrating Christ? How can a Christian ignore the Incarnation of the Word? How can a Christian serve God on his own accord–removed from the Community God Came to Give us? …it is as though, the Head, Christ, rejects His Body… could this not be Satan’s ultimate lie?

(If no one has guessed, I’m a bit of a fanatic about Christmas…)

…yeah, I picked up a little eggnog scent in the air! :extrahappy:

Behind all of that, is the intimacy of UNION with our real, personal, Creator.

What tragedy should we pursue righteousness, without engaging His person.

It is as featured in the movie, “Timechanger” — how useless is it to pursue the teachings of the Lord, without the Lord of the teachings!

In all these things, as James said — “Submit yourselves therefore to God; (resist the devil and he will flee); draw near to God, and HE will draw near to YOU!”

Enter within the veil, all who claim the title of “Christian”, and embrace God’s cherishing of YOUR fellowship, and cherish His presence too!


…yeah, that’s why: ‘Abide in Me that I may ABIDE in you,’ is not an elective!

We, Catholics, are so fond of the Eucharist because it is the Sacrament of that very Fulfillment: we have a supernatural Union with Christ every time that we Celebrate and eat His Body, worthily!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If you’ll allow me to be blunt, and perhaps a little abrasive — Scripture is all about knowing the true God (Jn17:3), intimately fellowshiping with Him in the persons of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Those who perceive Him as callous hypocritical and even a trifle wicked — do you really believe they experience true fellowship with Him? I would never say that to a Calvinist to his or her face, but privately I really believe He is impersonal to them!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, we might understand this to be the case… we may even burn with zealousness for God and His Salvific Plan… but we must counsel with love and understanding… patience and loves are not virtues for only the Saints.

Yes. “Not-really-die”, in that salvation becomes more of a golden ticket

, and we don’t have to be bothered “opening the door so He can come in and sup with us!” (Rev3:20)

Again – risking being too blunt and abrasive, because they want to stay in control? :yup:

Yeah, pretty amazing, isn’t it? What do you think about what I said about, “they want to retain control”?
Yes! It’s the ego trip–I, I, I followed by me, me, me.

It is the Ancient Serpent’s appeal… ‘You will be equal to God!’

Look at exactly what you quoted

— Jn10:12, THOSE WHO believe consequently gain the right/power to believe. “Exousia”, power-of-choice, permission. Mirrored in Rev22:14:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Same word — “may have the right”; after they believe, after they wash their robes. Mirrored in 2Tim2:12, “if anyone CLEANSES HIMSELF …he will be a vessel of honor to the Master…”

And you quoted Jn3:14-18, clearly saying “THOSE WHO” — nowhere does it speak of personal salvation in terms of “GOD WHO”. The places that say “God who”, assert a universal offer. Never exclusive. GOD WHO (all), and THOSE WHO (believe are saved).
It is an active relationship! …people often miss the parable of the talents… they think that the Master is overly concerned with personal gain… they do not see that He Requires that His Servants actively engage their Relationship.

Yup. Certainly not “LOVE” — not to those He ordained to be wicked (He is HATE), and not to those He lobotomizes (no one who loves another will lobotomize them in order to be loved back!).

Goodness — charging God with “fraudulence/hypocrisy/domination” is really blasphemy, it’s almost as bad to promote ANTINOMIANISM (which is what your friend was really doing!)

Three OSAS views:

1. Antinomianism (sin all you want, we’ll make more salvation!)
2. Eternal Security (anyone can be saved, can’t fall out)
3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (everything ordained beforehand by God)

#3 is the most insidious, because it fully charges God with causality in sin. “Compatibilism” is not sufficient to insulate God from His wickedness.

#1 denies all of Scripture; especially passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10. But then #2 and #3 are often heard to say “backslidden-but-saved”, which charges God with IGNORING sin in His children while condemning sin in the rest!

This is 100% accusing God of HYPOCRISY!
What really surprises me is that such understanding of Scriptures and God’s Salvific Plan exists… till today… I could almost understand it way in the past when people were mostly illiterate… they could easily be lead astray by a false prophet… but in today’s literate world, how can anyone miss Ezekiel 18 and St. John 3:14-21?

…unless, as you’ve stated, their relationship is not based on the God that Abides in men. Their focus is fully on those who lead them to where they are… and their ego trip keeps them from exercising their freewill to Know God as He Has Revealed Himself!

Ha! They cannot know

!

Ask any RT how he knows that he’s really a Fifteener (Lk8:15), “truly elected”, and not just a falsely-believing Thirteener (“cruelly-rejected” – Lk8:13) who only THINKS he’s saved but isn’t! And the only response he can make, is something like “The Spirit tells me!”

So too said the Thirteeners, at first — they BELIEVED JOYFULLY, they would completely have said “The Spirit confirms it”!

And there it is – no RT can ever say for certain he or she is saved and really belongs to Jesus, until his or her very last breath on Earth, proving by perseverance they’re a truly-elected FIFTEENER and a cruelly-rejected THIRTEENER!

He can’t know! (Violation of much of Scripture; especially 1Jn5:11-13, “You can know!”)

Why are there still RT’s?
…my point exactly! I think that they “elect” to remain oblivious to the Word since the Word Demands that they eject their theology and find and Live by Jesus’ Truth: ‘that anyone who has the Son has Life.’ (St. John 15:1-10)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

My only point was that justification was a “done deal” by Jesus, finished upon the Cross; as Paul says in 1Cor6:11, “we were justified by Jesus’ name and the Spirit”. Were, done deal, when we believed.

If that was what St. Paul meant, why does he later say:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Hello, Maria. This is parallel to 1Cor9:24-27:

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
“Disqualified” — adokimos, unapproved, castaway. Compare with “dokimos” approved, “be diligent to present yourself approved” (2Tim2:15), and “blessed is he who endures under trials; when he has passed-the-test (been approved!) he will receive the crown of Life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

In all of this, it is not that salvation is by our effort, but we “endure in faith” that HIS strength indwells us. Make sense?

We do agree. But that means that it wasn’t a completely “done deal”. In order for it to become a done deal, “we must abide”.

When is your birthday? Suppose I make you a jewel-box. I cut the wood, glue it together, sand it glass-smooth — carve your name (and some designs), stain it, and carefully layer varnish. I screw on the hinges and latch, then wrap it in bright paper and hand it to you. Was the jewel-box complete, when I handed it to you? Yes. Did you make any effort to build or finish the box? No.

This is parallel with your story of your daughter’s car. In the same way, suppose after I hand you your gift, you try to give me some money for it? That would make me a bit angry, wouldn’t it? I don’t want anything in return, I made the box because I like you!

Now, you can throw the jewel-box away at any time. It doesn’t take effort to receive it (the effort was all on my work-bench!), it doesn’t take effort to keep it; you just choose, daily.

Therefore your words of “we-are-being-justified”, do parallel what I’m saying “we-must-abide-in-Him-and-in-justification”…

I agree.

:hug3:

Well, it’s both. Because Scripture says that we are judged by our deeds. We can’t deny these words.

“Deeds”, are “works”; Paul says Rom11:6 “If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace.” Grace is 100% GOD, and nothing of our works; or it ain’t grace no mo’.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Same as Rom2:6-10, to those WHO by persevering in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, they receive eternal life. Where in that is "receive Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master)? It’s implied, isn’t it?

Well, I would say that differently. Deeds display whether a heart was converted or not. A heart must continue in good deeds, in order to be saved:

We’re arguing cause-and-effect. If salvation is “Jesus’-work, received-by-our-faith, PLUS-works-of-our-own”, why wasn’t His work on the Cross sufficient?

What’s wrong with Jesus that His dying, wasn’t enough?

Consider another way — read Rom6:23, “the wages of sin are death”.
Now, Col2:14 – “He has canceled out the certificate of debt, which was hostile to us, He has nailed it to the Cross…”

Do you see what happened there? In Jesus’ time, someone would get thrown into “debtor’s prison”. When they had completed their sentence, they would be released – a scroll listing the charges of their debt would be stamped, “TETELESTAI – debt paid”. And that was Jesus’ last word on the Cross, tetelestai — I PAID YOUR DEBT!

That was two thousand years ago, and your and my certificates of debt were nailed to His Cross, nailed and PAID. We don’t have to add more nails to those certificates, they’re already up there on His Cross!

Now, it’s true that there is a CONDITION on our certificates REMAINING on His Cross — we must abide in Him by faith, and abide in repentance! But we don’t have to NAIL ANYTHING to His Cross. Each us had ONE “certificate-of-debt”, and Col2:14 says “HE NAILED IT TO HIS CROSS”. Nailed it, up there, two thousand years ago.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Please look again at Rev20:13-15 — yes we will be judged according to our deeds, but where in Scripture does it say “deeds have anything to do with eternity”? Rev20:15 only not-being-in-the-Book condemns us. 1Jn5:10 “not-believing” condemns us. Jn3:18 “those who DO NOT believe are condemned already, BECAUSE they HAVE NOT believed.”

That’s it; only belief — and where your position meets my position, is that we agree TRUE faith CANNOT be alone apart from good deeds. So “only-belief”, but real belief cannot be only…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Actually, it’s both/and.

Again, Eph2:8 “not-by-works-lest-anyone-boast”. Same as Rom4:2 “if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to boast about”. See again Rm11:6, “if it be by works then grace is not grace”.

How works fit INTO faith and salvation, consistent with Rom4:2-5, and with James2:14-26, works only affect FAITH — and then faith affects salvation.

Scripture says:

1 Timothy 4:16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

We must do our part, to be saved.

That is identical to 2Tim1:12-14 — “I know Whom I have believed, and am assured that He is able to guard that which I entrust to Him. RETAIN the standard of sound words in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (eternal life!) entrusted to you.”

Retain the standard of sound words in the faith and love in Jesus — “abide in the teaching”. Same as Jude20-21, “build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love”.

Not by doing good works to earn any part of our birthday present, but abiding in HIM and exploiting HIS power through our faith.

(Hey, that was pretty good — “our BIRTHDAY PRESENT” — we become adopted sons/daughters, we are BORN FROM ABOVE (born again), and our birthday present is JESUS and ETERNAL LIFE!) :extrahappy:

I look at it like this. Let’s say a man is caught in a deluge. He’s being swept away by the current. A rescuer throws out a lifesaver tethered to a rope, but it’s not long enough.

In order for that man to be saved, he’ll have to swim to the lifesaver. Once he gets there, he’ll have to hang on (i.e. abide) as he is being pulled to safety.

Maria, my cherished sister — that would be as though Jesus’ Cross does not reach all the way across the chasm! It does — it’s the bridge that is COMPLETE. Sin separated us from God, Jesus now bridges the gap; I know you’ve seen those tracts showing the Cross connecting both sides. Those “certificates-of-debt” were nailed to the Cross, not nailed to a rope PARTWAY TO the Cross; they are up all the way on His Cross. We don’t have to carry those condemning papers any part of the way, they’re “nailed to the Cross”. He nailed it there, but it is as if those nails, are fabricated out of our FAITH. I think that’s another good “word-picture”! He nailed our debts to His Cross, but if we do not persevere in faith the nails go away, and the hateful paper flutters back onto us!

I feel like this is a great metaphor for what Christ has done for us. He saved us, so that we could save ourselves.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

Matthew 10:38 and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

There is one Savior — “there is no Savior but Him”. Isaiah43:11. When Paul says “save-yourselves” in 1Tim4:16, and Jude says “save-others” in vs 23, it means we are to lead them to THE Savior, we do not actually do the saving!

Whaddya think – do you find any value in what I’ve written, and the connections in Scripture?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah… that’s the big flaw in legalism… we can work against God while thinking that we are being led by Him… ('they will put you to death…")

How can one think he’s serving God, but be doing the opposite? But of course Paul was. So too those in Matt7:21-23. And those in Rev3:14-21…

…I remember one non-Catholic site that I used to visit… some wanted to do away with both the Church and Christmas… after all, wasn’t that a pagan thing to do (celebrate Christ’s birthday)? …and isn’t that a pagan practice/worship (gathering together and trees [Christ-mas trees])? How can a Christian Be Christian without Celebrating Christ? How can a Christian ignore the Incarnation of the Word? How can a Christian serve God on his own accord–removed from the Community God Came to Give us? …it is as though, the Head, Christ, rejects His Body… could this not be satan’s ultimate lie?

It will always be a great “open door” to do things like wear shirts, “Jesus is the reason for the season!”

…yeah, I picked up a little eggnog scent in the air! :extrahappy:

Hmph. It’s not like I go to malls on Christmas Eve with Christmas lights on a Santa-hat, playing carols on a recorder!

…uhm, well, I have been known to do exactly that. One year the piano-store guy and I were playing duets! Really fun!

…yeah, that’s why: ‘Abide in Me that I may ABIDE in you,’ is not an elective!

“Not an elective”?

When Scripture uses “the elect” (eklektos), it’s simply another name for “the saved”…

We, Catholics, are so fond of the Eucharist because it is the Sacrament of that very Fulfillment: we have a supernatural Union with Christ every time that we Celebrate and eat His Body, worthily!

Every day we are to dwell within the veil, in intimate union with He whom we love. Doesn’t it make it much harder to sin, if we are aware of walking with His hand in ours?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, we might understand this to be the case… we may even burn with zealousness for God and His Salvific Plan… but we must counsel with love and understanding… patience and loves are not virtues for only the Saints.

Whoever is our audience, if we fail in respect, we will close them to whatever we wanted to say…

Yes! It’s the ego trip–I, I, I followed by me, me, me.

It is the Ancient Serpent’s appeal… ‘You will be equal to God!’

Nicely done! I hadn’t really thought in those terms; but you’re right, refusing to surrender the “driver’s seat” to God (Gal2:20!), is really keeping oneself as “god”!

It is an active relationship! …people often miss the parable of the talents… they think that the Master is overly concerned with personal gain… they do not see that He Requires that His Servants actively engage their Relationship.

As Jesus said, “salvation is knowing the Father and the Son”.

PJM posted this:

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly]
loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21[/color]

What really surprises me is that such understanding of Scriptures and God’s Salvific Plan exists… till today… I could almost understand it way in the past when people were mostly illiterate… they could easily be lead astray by a false prophet… but in today’s literate world, how can anyone miss Ezekiel 18 and St. John 3:14-21?

Then it’s up to us to be their Scriptural diligence for them, to confront them with the verses they tossed out because they’re opposed to RT…

…unless, as you’ve stated, their relationship is not based on the God that Abides in men. Their focus is fully on those who lead them to where they are… and their ego trip keeps them from exercising their freewill to Know God as He Has Revealed Himself!

There is a verse “they have a form of godliness but deny the power”. But I think many are more Rev3:14-21; “you say to yourself ‘I am rich and need nothing’ — you do not know you are poor, blind, miserable, wretched and naked!”

In context, they were neither hot nor cold but LUKEWARM; therefore God will spew them (literally, “vomit”) from His mouth…

(RT’s cannot know they’re saved, until their very last breath!)

…my point exactly! I think that they “elect” to remain oblivious to the Word since the Word Demands that they eject their theology and find and Live by Jesus’ Truth: ‘that anyone who has the Son has Life.’ (St. John 15:1-10)And don’t forget the tie-in with 2Jn1:7-9, we can go too far and cease abiding-in-the-teaching so as to no LONGER have Jesus!

 

[jcrichton]

How can one think he’s serving God, but be doing the opposite? But of course Paul was. So too those in Matt7:21-23. And those in Rev3:14-21…

Hi, Gadgteteer!

…I love St. Matthew’s parable of the Last Judgment… here we find two seemingly devout groups… one doing the Will of God while the other thinking it is doing God’s will… both are caught by surprise when their life experience is brought to Judgment and both held up to their deeds… it is not surprising that those who were caught up in themselves were only dispensing God’s Judgment upon the world (which they brought upon themselves–St. Matthew 7:1-5); they probably thought that they were “Called” by God to do important things (St. Matthew 7:21-23) and that all those other menial things were left up to the “not so Spiritual” ones to do… or that they were not necessary for “Salvation.”

It will always be a great “open door” to do things like wear shirts, “Jesus is the reason for the season!”

…not if the French (and those with like-minds) would have it; I understand that it is illegal to wear a Crucifix in public over there… well, unless it is done out of “style,” you know, as an accessory–expensive/odd jewelry piece!

Hmph. It’s not like I go to malls on Christmas Eve with Christmas lights on a Santa-hat, playing carols on a recorder!

…uhm, well, I have been known to do exactly that. One year the piano-store guy and I were playing duets! Really fun!
Wow, you really put your Joy to the World where it shines! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

“Not an elective”?

When Scripture uses “the elect” (eklektos), it’s simply another name for “the saved”…

…I meant that it is compulsory: we cannot elect not to Abide in Christ if we are to Be His Disciples/Followers/Siblings; it is as you’ve stated:

Every day we are to dwell within the veil, in intimate union with He whom we love. Doesn’t it make it much harder to sin, if we are aware of walking with His hand in ours?

…hence my signature!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Whoever is our audience, if we fail in respect, we will close them to whatever we wanted to say…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…that’s the ultimate litmus test… must we admonish those who err? Yes. But our error is grater than those we seek to assist if our admonishment is not meted with charity.

Nicely done! I hadn’t really thought in those terms; but you’re right, refusing to surrender the “driver’s seat” to God (Gal2:20!), is really keeping oneself as “god”!

As Jesus said, “salvation is knowing the Father and the Son”.

PJM posted this:

Exactly… note the one prayer that Jesus shared with His Disciples: ‘forgive us as we forgive.’

Everything we do must take into consideration our relationship with God (or lack thereof) since God is conscious of our struggles, our failures, our successes, and our goals (St. Matthew 5:1-48). It is the reason why St. Paul utters:

1 Since you have been brought back to true life with Christ, you must look for the things that are in heaven, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on heavenly things, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God.

(Colossians 3:1-3)

Then it’s up to us to be their Scriptural diligence for them,

to confront them with the verses they tossed out because they’re opposed to RT…

There is a verse “they have a form of godliness but deny the power”. But I think many are more Rev3:14-21; “you say to yourself ‘I am rich and need nothing’ — you do not know you are poor, blind, miserable, wretched and naked!”

In context, they were neither hot nor cold but LUKEWARM; therefore God will spew them (literally, “vomit”) from His mouth…

And don’t forget the tie-in with 2Jn1:7-9, we can go too far and cease abiding-in-the-teaching so as to no LONGER have Jesus!
…it is the sin of Presumption… thinking that we know God’s Mind; that we are, as the Pharisee, way ahead of the Publican or that we basically speak the language of the angels–so high and mighty we be that we can see the “x” heaven!

…wasn’t there a guy once who thought himself so mighty that he could do without Yahweh God?

Jesus made one mention of this, as the old clichés go, one time:

18 He said to them, ‘I watched Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

(St. Luke 10:18)
…anyone who places him/herself beyond (above) God will meet with the same consequences!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hello, Maria. This is parallel to 1Cor9:24-27:

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
“Disqualified” — adokimos, unapproved, castaway. Compare with “dokimos” approved, “be diligent to present yourself approved” (2Tim2:15), and “blessed is he who endures under trials; when he has passed-the-test (been approved!) he will receive the crown of Life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Still, it proves that salvation was not a “done deal” at the Cross.

In all of this, it is not that salvation is by our effort,

As I said, we have our part to play. Our effort to exert. This is part of God’s plan.

but we “endure in faith” that HIS strength indwells us. Make sense?

Yes, in the context of faith mobilized to strive for the salvation which Jesus obtained for us.

When is your birthday? Suppose I make you a jewel-box.

I’m 60 and I’m a man. Not into jewel boxes. I understand. It’s a common mistake because of the name.

I cut the wood, glue it together, sand it glass-smooth — carve your name (and some designs), stain it, and carefully layer varnish. I screw on the hinges and latch, then wrap it in bright paper and hand it to you. Was the jewel-box complete, when I handed it to you? Yes. Did you make any effort to build or finish the box? No.

Then, I don’t agree with your metaphor. God doesn’t give any gifts to those who do not FIRST exert effort to obey His commands.

This is parallel with your story of your daughter’s car.

Not at all. There’s no true effort there. God wants us to suffer with Him, remember?

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Let’s compare.

God says, if we want to enter life, we must keep His Commandments.
I said to my daughter, if you want this car, you need to graduate.

There are no ifs in your gift. You are simply giving it.

In the same way, suppose after I hand you your gift, you try to give me some money for it? That would make me a bit angry, wouldn’t it? I don’t want anything in return, I made the box because I like you!

Still wrong. God wants us to give Him things in gratitude for the gift He has given us. He doesn’t want us to take the gift for granted:

Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Now, you can throw the jewel-box away at any time. It doesn’t take effort to receive it (the effort was all on my work-bench!), it doesn’t take effort to keep it; you just choose, daily.

Since it takes me a great deal of effort, I have to disagree. But Scripture also contradicts that idea:
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

“Deeds”, are “works”; Paul says Rom11:6 “If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace.” Grace is 100% GOD, and nothing of our works; or it ain’t grace no mo’.

Because God doesn’t trade works for salvation. But God does not save anyone who does not do good works. God gives the gift of salvation to those who do good works.

Same as Rom2:6-10, to those WHO by persevering in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, they receive eternal life. Where in that is "receive Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master)? It’s implied, isn’t it?

No. That’s a Protestant construct.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee, and thou hast done well, that thou hast come. Now therefore are we all here present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee from God.”
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said, “In truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons,
35 but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted by Him.

One doesn’t need to be aware of Christ’s existence to obey the Law in one’s heart.

Romans 2:15 which shows the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts between accusing and excusing one another.)

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

gadgeteer:

We’re arguing cause-and-effect.

No. You are having trouble understanding what God has revealed with regards to salvation.

First. God doesn’t trade works for salvation. God gives the gift of salvation to those who obey Him.
Second. Jesus’ work on the Cross was more than sufficient to save every person in the world. If every person in the world had turned to Him to be saved. God doesn’t give the gift of salvation to those who don’t obey His commands.

It’s the difference between merit and wage.

If salvation is “Jesus’-work, received-by-our-faith, PLUS-works-of-our-own”, why wasn’t His work on the Cross sufficient?

That’s another Protestant construct. It presumes that God’s plan is the one which Protestant’s made up. But it isn’t. It was always God’s plan that man should contribute to his own salvation.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

What’s wrong with Jesus that His dying, wasn’t enough?

Christ dying was more than enough. You simply can’t shake your presupposition that salvation is a gift without prerequisites. There are many sorts of gifts, even amongst humans. Frequently, people donate things and have requirements of what must be done to receive the gift or what the gift is to be used for.

God has a simple prerequisite to the gift of salvation:

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Consider another way — read Rom6:23, “the wages of sin are death”.
Now, Col2:14 – “He has canceled out the certificate of debt, which was hostile to us, He has nailed it to the Cross…”

That doesn’t mean we no longer have to keep the Commandments. Read on and you will see:

Colossians 3:1*If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God…

Do you see what happened there? In Jesus’ time, someone would get thrown into “debtor’s prison”. When they had completed their sentence, they would be released – a scroll listing the charges of their debt would be stamped, “TETELESTAI – debt paid”. And that was Jesus’ last word on the Cross, tetelestai — I PAID YOUR DEBT!

He paid our debt

Yes, He did. Now, if we follow your assumption to it’s logical end. If we say that He did everything and the deal is now completely done, then that means that every single man, woman and child, from all eternity, are saved. Because that is how much grace was poured into the world when Jesus died upon that cross.

But, guess what, every man, woman and child was not saved. Why? Because they each have to do something in order to be saved. They have to do their part. They have to cooperate with their salvation.

That was two thousand years ago, and your and my certificates of debt were nailed to His Cross, nailed and PAID. We don’t have to add more nails to those certificates, they’re already up there on His Cross!

Yeah, we do. You can’t take up your cross and follow Him without adding some nails to the Cross:

Galatians 2:20 [Full Chapter]
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You may not want to, but unless you do, you aren’t saved.

Now, it’s true that there is a CONDITION on our certificates REMAINING on His Cross — we must abide in Him by faith, and abide in repentance! But we don’t have to NAIL ANYTHING to His Cross. Each us had ONE “certificate-of-debt”, and Col2:14 says “HE NAILED IT TO HIS CROSS”. Nailed it, up there, two thousand years ago.

Well, just like you said, there is a condition. I don’t know what you think the condition is, but I’ll tell you what Christ says the condition is:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; **as I have loved you, **that ye also love one another.

How much did Christ love us? Here’s what Scripture says:

Romans 5:8*But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Please look again at Rev20:13-15 — yes we will be judged according to our deeds, but where in Scripture does it say “deeds have anything to do with eternity”? Rev20:15 only not-being-in-the-Book condemns us. 1Jn5:10 “not-believing” condemns us. Jn3:18 "those who DO NOT believe are condemned already, BECAUSE they HAVE NOT believed.”

There’s lots of places where works are connected to eternity. You are well aware of them. Why do you reject them?

Matt 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-13; James 2:24; Matt 19:17

That’s it; only belief — and where your position meets my position, is that we agree TRUE faith CANNOT be alone apart from good deeds. So “only-belief”, but real belief cannot be only…

So, salvation is by faith and works. Why do you have a problem saying so?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgteteer!

…I love St. Matthew’s parable of the Last Judgment… here we find two seemingly devout groups… one doing the Will of God while the other thinking it is doing God’s will… both are caught by surprise when their life experience is brought to Judgment and both held up to their deeds… it is not surprising that those who were caught up in themselves were only dispensing God’s Judgment upon the world (which they brought upon themselves–St. Matthew 7:1-5); they probably thought that they were “Called” by God to do important things (St. Matthew 7:21-23) and that all those other menial things were left up to the “not so Spiritual” ones to do… or that they were not necessary for “Salvation.”

It is possible that those who thought themselves “saved”, were the ones passing judgment on others; rather like the the Pharisee and the tax-collector:

Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: “God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.”
But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me, the sinner!”
I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke18:10-14
The Pharisee thought himself superior and spiritual and more “God’s-child”, than the other; the Pharisee was wrong.

…not if the French (and those with like-minds) would have it; I understand that it is illegal to wear a Crucifix in public over there… well, unless it is done out of “style,” you know, as an accessory–expensive/odd jewelry piece!

Goodness – such is the recompense of founding a country on Humanism…

Of course, technically we’re not supposed to be wearing “Cross Necklaces” — the Cross is a symbol of what we were, what has died; we should be wearing empty-tombs!

Wow, you really put your Joy to the World where it shines!

"“No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.” Lk11:33

“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Matt5:16

:extrahappy:

…I meant that it is compulsory: we cannot elect not to Abide in Christ if we are to Be His Disciples/Followers/Siblings; it is as you’ve stated:

Every day we are to dwell within the veil, in intimate union with He whom we love. Doesn’t it make it much harder to sin, if we are aware of walking with His hand in ours

…hence my signature!

Smile, God is Watching Us!

He not only watches, He indwells us. But the WORLD is watching us too. We are ambassadors for God (2Cor5:20); what they know of Jesus, they know from us. What we say in between our words, is much louder than the words we speak. Only if He is real in us, can we make Him real to others.

It is extreme foolishness to raise a child on “do as I say, not as I do”; what we do, declares our hearts — may they see Him in us sufficient that they want what we have.

 

[De_Maria]

Maria, my cherished sister

Oops! A lot of people make that mistake, because of the name. But I’m a 60 year old man. 33 year married to the same lovely woman and father of four.

I took the name “De Maria” in line with the old and cherished Catholic tradition of Saints who take on our Lady’s mantle. Examples: Sts. Alphonsus “de Marie” Liguori and Louis “Marie” de Montfort.

Again, Eph2:8 “not-by-works-lest-anyone-boast”. Same as Rom4:2 “if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to boast about”. See again Rm11:6, “if it be by works then grace is not grace”.

How works fit INTO faith and salvation, consistent with Rom4:2-5, and with James2:14-26, works only affect FAITH — and then faith affects salvation.

That is identical to 2Tim1:12-14 — “I know Whom I have believed, and am assured that He is able to guard that which I entrust to Him. RETAIN the standard of sound words in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (eternal life!) entrusted to you.”

Retain the standard of sound words in the faith and love in Jesus — “abide in the teaching”. Same as Jude20-21, “build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love”.

Not by doing good works to earn any part of our birthday present, but abiding in HIM and exploiting HIS power through our faith.

(Hey, that was pretty good — “our BIRTHDAY PRESENT” — we become adopted sons/daughters, we are BORN FROM ABOVE (born again), and our birthday present is JESUS and ETERNAL LIFE!) :extrahappy:

The gift of salvation is not like a birthday gift. In order to receive the gift of salvation, one must exert some effort with regards to God’s commands. There’s no sitting on the sidelines.

Revelation 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

…— that would be as though Jesus’ Cross does not reach all the way across the chasm! It does — it’s the bridge that is COMPLETE.

Certainly. But only those who do the works which God commands will be allowed to cross the bridge:

Matt 22:11 But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. 12 He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. 13 Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ 14 Many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Sin separated us from God, Jesus now bridges the gap; I know you’ve seen those tracts showing the Cross connecting both sides. Those “certificates-of-debt” were nailed to the Cross, not nailed to a rope PARTWAY TO the Cross; they are up all the way on His Cross. We don’t have to carry those condemning papers any part of the way, they’re “nailed to the Cross”. He nailed it there, but it is as if those nails, are fabricated out of our FAITH. I think that’s another good “word-picture”! He nailed our debts to His Cross, but if we do not persevere in faith the nails go away, and the hateful paper flutters back onto us!

We are still in debt. Not to the flesh, but to the Spirit:

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

There is one Savior — “there is no Savior but Him”. Isaiah43:11. When Paul says “save-yourselves” in 1Tim4:16, and Jude says “save-others” in vs 23, it means we are to lead them to THE Savior, we do not actually do the saving!

Yes, we do. It’s not a zero sum game. Jesus did the major work. But if we don’t do the rest, we will be lost.

Whaddya think – do you find any value in what I’ve written, and the connections in Scripture?

Unfortunately, although your ideas are closer to Catholic Doctrine, they are still off the mark.

The main problem, I assume, is that you join other Protestants in believing that WE are supposed to read Scripture and figure out what to believe. But Scripture says:

Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

And, that’s the difference between every non-Catholic and Catholics. We submit to the Teaching authority of Christ which now resides in the Church. Not in ourselves.

Ephesians 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

 

[jcrichton]

It is possible that those who thought themselves “saved”, were the ones passing judgment on others; rather like the the Pharisee and the tax-collector:

Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: “God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.”
But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me, the sinner!”
I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke18:10-14
The Pharisee thought himself superior and spiritual and more “God’s-child”, than the other; the Pharisee was wrong.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It’s the old ego trip thing… remember the rich young man? ‘…been there; done that… from early on…’ then Jesus ups the ante: sell (give up what ties you to the world), give to the poor (buy the “good” gold), then Come and Follow Me (Abide in Me)…

…sadly, people keep thinking that only the rich (financially wealthy) will have a hard time entering the Kingdom… but it is not only money that will cause man to lose his Way… self-assurance and pride do as much damage… perhaps even more since through these man can impede/derail not only his own Salvation but that of all of the humanity.

Goodness – such is the recompense of founding a country on Humanism…

…but it is progressive, though… as is going to hell in a handbasket!

Of course, technically we’re not supposed to be wearing “Cross Necklaces” — the Cross is a symbol of what we were, what has died; we should be wearing empty-tombs!

…actually, not; …just don’t let St. Paul hear you:

1 As for me, brothers, when I came to you, it was not with any show of oratory or philosophy, but simply to tell you what God had guaranteed. 2 During my stay with you, the only knowledge I claimed to have was about Jesus, and only about him as the crucified Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:1-2)

11 Take good note of what I am adding in my own handwriting and in large letters. 12 It is only self-interest that makes them want to force circumcision on you – they want to escape persecution for the cross of Christ – 13 they accept circumcision but do not keep the Law themselves; they only want you to be circumcised so that they can boast of the fact. 14 As for me, the only thing I can boast about is the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world. (Galatians 6:11-14)

21 If it was God’s wisdom that human wisdom should not know God, it was because God wanted to save those who have faith through the foolishness of the message that we preach. 22 And so, while the Jews demand miracles and the Greeks look for wisdom, 23 here are we preaching a crucified Christ; to the Jews an obstacle that they cannot get over, to the pagans madness, 24 but to those who have been called, whether they are Jews or Greeks, a Christ who is the power and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:21-24)

26 Until the Lord comes, therefore, every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are proclaiming his death, (1 Corinthians 11:26)
…and, aside from His Own Person, this is what Christ presented as a sing of Salvation:

13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven; and the Son of Man must be lifted up 14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

(St. John 3:13-15)
…so while we Catholics celebrate Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension, we must Celebrate our Salvation not in an empty tomb or a plain cross… but in the Crucifix: Christ Crucified for the sin of the world… consider too Christ’s own sign on His Parousia:

7 It is he who is coming on the clouds; everyone will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the races of the earth will mourn over him. This is the truth. Amen.

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 1:7)

"“No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.” Lk11:33

“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Matt5:16

He not only watches, He indwells us. But the WORLD is watching us too. We are ambassadors for God (2Cor5:20); what they know of Jesus, they know from us. What we say in between our words, is much louder than the words we speak. Only if He is real in us, can we make Him real to others.

It is extreme foolishness to raise a child on “do as I say, not as I do”; what we do, declares our hearts — may they see Him in us sufficient that they want what we have.


Correct! …it is the reason why St. James admonishes us to be doers of the Word!

Maran atha!

Angel