Regarding Once Saved, always Saved

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Sorry if is ignorant to ask but some Christians believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved. Or that, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died for you, and you will go to heaven.

What about people like Hitler? Obviously no-one knows if he is in heaven or hell, but do some Christians believe that he can only be in heaven because he had been baptised and may have believed in Jesus up until his death?
 
It boggles my mind that people actually believe this, but it seems they do. I don’t know if anyone could justify Hitler being saved, and I’m sure those who advocated once saved always saved will trip over themselves to make an exception for that one. 😃

It seems that this is advocated by people who want to say they are Christians and want to justify to themselves that they are saved and going to heaven but who do not want to live for Jesus, crucify the flesh, or grow in grace, pursue personal holiness, purge sin from their lives, lay all on the altar of God in exchange for his all consuming love and grace. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.

PS: This also may have something to do with Christians who believe in Calvinism and predestination but who were badly taught. Remember, those Christians believing in predestination believe that if God has predestined you to be saved, you will be saved. If he has predestined you not to be, then you want be saved. The teaching is supposed to make people realize that is it is only by God’s grace that one is saved and no one can count on his own works to be saved. It is suppose to make people respond to God in humility and thankfulness that God in his love saves those who do not deserve it. Obviously, this teaching can lead many to believe that once saved always saved.
 
m8g8 said:
Sorry if is ignorant to ask but some Christians believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved. Or that, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died for you, and you will go to heaven.

What about people like Hitler? Obviously no-one knows if he is in heaven or hell, but do some Christians believe that he can only be in heaven because he had been baptised and may have believed in Jesus up until his death?
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I think the belief in OSAS is best viewed via ‘hindsight’ from looking at the past This is the only way a mortal can show the clarity that God might posses

I can now predict with 100% accuracy who would graduate from my High School and who would drop out before my graduation. Jumping back in time to Freshman year, l know the people who registered as freshman and were ‘predestined’ to graduate, and those damned to a life of minimum wage slavery… I could mark everyone with Gold stars and Red X’s to signify their future. Someone with the Red X isn’t gonna graduate no matter how many summer schools they attend or classes they retake - history has already proven they must fail.

With OSAS, If someone is damned (Hitler) they were never saved, regardless of how many times they prayed the sinners prayer or were baptized. Maybe their heart wasn’t really into it. If they were truely saved, they would have been overcome by the spirit and unable to fail (lose salvation)

Net, with OSAS you have a bunch of people who think they are saved, but really don’t know for certain. I find their attitude arrogant since many Christians have been shown to sin and turn away from God after being ‘born again’
 
m8g8 said:
Sorry if is ignorant to ask but some Christians believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved. Or that, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died for you, and you will go to heaven.

What about people like Hitler? Obviously no-one knows if he is in heaven or hell, but do some Christians believe that he can only be in heaven because he had been baptised and may have believed in Jesus up until his death?
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Hitler was baptized Catholic but from all that i have read about him, never ONCE stepped foot in the Church afterwards. He certainly wasn’t committed to the Church in ANY way, but some ignorant people who dont know history still like to claim he was Catholic. i define Catholic as one who adheres to the teachings of the RCC.

I think the fact that Hitler murdered millions would kind of tend to disqualify him according to that definition.

But people like to bash the Church and that Hitler thing always gets good mileage (so they think)

anyway, it is “known” by some that Hitler IS in Hell since he has been known to speak trhough those possessed ofthe devil.
 
fanatic1 said:
anyway, it is “known” by some that Hitler IS in Hell since he has been known to speak trhough those possessed ofthe devil.
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Really? That’s really scary! Do you believe that those possions were true, and not just something psychological?

I don’t like to say that Hitler is in hell, because for all we know, he could have converted while dying and accepted God’s mercy when he met Him. My heart doubts that, but:

“write that I am more generous towards sinners than toward the just. It was for their sake that I came down form Heaven; it was for their sake that My Blood was spilled. Let them not fear to approach Me; they are in most need of My mercy.”
 
As Itwin began to touch on but didn’t really get into, we must distinguish between Calvinistic views of predestination and Perseverance of the Saints on the one hand and Once Saved Always Saved on the other.

Perseverance of the Saints means that those who become Christians never fall away. That means that if someone appears to have fallen away, they were never really a Christian in the first place. Their apparent Christianity was just some sort of act, never something truly believed and heartfelt. This is different from OSAS, in which even if you fall back into a sinful lifestyle or even apostatize from Christianity, you will still be saved because you once believed.

Both these views are a separate issue from predestination, which gets into why one person makes a choice in favor of God and another makes a choice against Him. OSAS could work with either a strong view of predestination (predestination determining our choices) or a weak one (predestination being based on our choices).

I think Itwin may be on to something in suggesting OSAS may originally stem from a misunderstanding of Calvinism, though the key element of Calvinism in question would not be predestination but rather Perseverance of the Saints. I don’t know if history would back up such a connection to Calvinism though.
 
I am always surprised when I visit these doctrinal threads and see no Scripture. Personally, I don’t subscribe to OSAS but there is Scriptural backing for this.
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
OSAS people explain that if nothing can separate us from the love of God then sin can’t separate us. They would say that people who fall away weren’t serious in their conversion. This developed
Let’s say a Christian dies in the middle of a crisis of faith following a personal tragedy, the death of a young spouse or child. They may stop going to church, be angry with God, maybe turn to drink or gambling or some other diversion to try to cope. OSAS people say that God knows their heart and whether they really believed or not. However, some get carried away and teach that as long as you have said the sinner’s prayer you are assured salvation. To them I would point to the sixth chapter of Hebrews
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
 
I think most people aren’t opposed to a thoughtful consideration on the preservation of the saints and the extent of God’s mercy and grace. What people are opposed to are those who believe for what ever reasons that because they were baptized as a child, or because they went down to the altar 30 years ago and said the sinners prayer, or because they joined a church, or whatever they want to say but they haven’t stepped inside a church in God knows when nor have they repented of sin in their lives that some how, some way they are the redeemed of the Lord and are on the highway to heaven. I think that’s what offends a lot of Christians.
 
OSAS is a diabolical doctrine. It posits that if I merely believe ONCE in my lifetime, and I “got saved” or was “born again,” God restrains Himself from imposing his laws on me from then until I die – and that my place in heaven is assured.

Christ says to the rich young man, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” An OSAS believer says Kings X, God can’t make me keep the commendments because I once believed in Him. All of His commandments are suspended where I am concerned and no longer affect me. I am heaven bound, home free, no matter what I may do now or in the future. The copout comes when I become a mass murderer. Then, it is said that I wasn’t really saved – I only thought I was. :whacky:

Most (all?) Baptists are very big on the doctrine of OSAS. I grew up being taught this. It is called “Believer’s Security” or “Assurance of Salvation.” Or – I 'spose, other names.

The favorite “proof-text” is John 10:26-29 - But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.

True. No one can take me out of the Father’s hand – **but I take myself out of God’s hand when I deliberately choose to commit mortal sin. **

Case closed.

Jim Dandy
 
Jim_Dandy said:
OSAS is a diabolical doctrine. It posits that if I merely believe ONCE in my lifetime, and I “got saved” or was “born again,” God restrains Himself from imposing his laws on me from then until I die – and that my place in heaven is assured.

Christ says to the rich young man, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” An OSAS believer says Kings X, God can’t make me keep the commendments because I once believed in Him. All of His commandments are suspended where I am concerned and no longer affect me. I am heaven bound, home free, no matter what I may do now or in the future. The copout comes when I become a mass murderer. Then, it is said that I wasn’t really saved – I only thought I was. :whacky:

Most (all?) Baptists are very big on the doctrine of OSAS. I grew up being taught this. It is called “Believer’s Security” or “Assurance of Salvation.” Or – I 'spose, other names.

The favorite “proof-text” is John 10:26-29 - But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.

True. No one can take me out of the Father’s hand – but I take myself out of God’s hand when I deliberately choose to commit mortal sin.

Case closed.

Jim Dandy
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Thank you, Jim Dandy. Love this.
 
fanatic1 said:
anyway, it is “known” by some that Hitler IS in Hell since he has been known to speak trhough those possessed ofthe devil.
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Just to clarify, this isn’t official Church teaching. The Church has never said a specific person absolutely is in hell (unlike the Church saying a person, a saint, absolutely is in heaven).
 
m8g8 said:
Really? That’s really scary! Do you believe that those possions were true, and not just something psychological?

I don’t like to say that Hitler is in hell, because for all we know, he could have converted while dying and accepted God’s mercy when he met Him. My heart doubts that, but:

."
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it would be great to believe that but i have heard this from more than one (reliable) source - that Hitler has been heard throiugh possessed people. I have read a few books written by exorcists themselves

i think Hitler went beyond the point of no return in this life - and of course, he knew at what point that had happened & didn’t care

I’m sure he cares NOW though 😦
 
regression said:
Just to clarify, this isn’t official Church teaching. The Church has never said a specific person absolutely is in hell (unlike the Church saying a person, a saint, absolutely is in heaven).
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i never claimed it was Church teaching.

i am claiming that exorcists have heard Hitler speak through possessed persons.

in an exorcism, the demon (or damned) is usually made to identify himself. It is part of the exorcism ritual
 
fanatic1 said:
i never claimed it was Church teaching.

i am claiming that exorcists have heard Hitler speak through possessed persons.

in an exorcism, the demon (or damned) is usually made to identify himself. It is part of the exorcism ritual
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Understand. I just wanted to make sure no one reading this thread mistakenly came under the impression it was Church teaching. Peace.
 
m8g8 said:
Sorry if is ignorant to ask but some Christians believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved. Or that, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died for you, and you will go to heaven.

What about people like Hitler? Obviously no-one knows if he is in heaven or hell, but do some Christians believe that he can only be in heaven because he had been baptised and may have believed in Jesus up until his death?
Click to expand...
i am not sure all OSAS people believe that infant baptism is valid.

it would seem that most do not

so Hitler was not necessarily saved in their eyes.

Cahtolics believe that baptism saves

but that mortal sin afterwards damns, if not repented of/expiated
 
Tony888 said:
I think the belief in OSAS is best viewed via ‘hindsight’ from looking at the past This is the only way a mortal can show the clarity that God might posses

I can now predict with 100% accuracy who would graduate from my High School and who would drop out before my graduation. Jumping back in time to Freshman year, l know the people who registered as freshman and were ‘predestined’ to graduate, and those damned to a life of minimum wage slavery… I could mark everyone with Gold stars and Red X’s to signify their future. Someone with the Red X isn’t gonna graduate no matter how many summer schools they attend or classes they retake - history has already proven they must fail.

With OSAS, If someone is damned (Hitler) they were never saved, regardless of how many times they prayed the sinners prayer or were baptized. Maybe their heart wasn’t really into it. If they were truely saved, they would have been overcome by the spirit and unable to fail (lose salvation)

Net, with OSAS you have a bunch of people who think they are saved, but really don’t know for certain. I find their attitude arrogant since many Christians have been shown to sin and turn away from God after being ‘born again’
Click to expand...
i know for a fact that i was “saved” - not only as an infant in baptism, but then later when i had a big conversion experience. I KNOW because i changed so much.

But then after a few yrs of being faithful to Jesus, i fell (gradually) away, not intentionally so much as just out of complacency or whatever (hard to put into words…)

In any case, i know that if i had died in those years when i was fallen away, i would have at least gone to a fairly low level of Purgatory because of my sins.

The Catholic church teaches that sins are not necessarily mortal if the person does not see them as being such. So, if a person never really sees that (say) fornication is wrong, well, it is still wrong in the eyes of God and s/he will still pay the consequences of comitting that sin, but may not necessarily end up in Hell

A person who was throoughly catechized in the Faith and then committed fornication just the same - that’s a different story.
 
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