Regarding salvation, which of these three options do you think is most accurate?

[nuntym]

Believing in Jesus obviously leads to salvation by grace through faith. The remaining question is this. Is sanctification also salvation? If the answer is no, you should choose option 2. If the answer is yes, you must decide if it is more of the same salvation that was gained by grace through faith (filling up what is incomplete, if you will), or perhaps it is a different kind of salvation that must be gained in addition to the first salvation.

Anyway, what’s your choice?

Before I answer, mmmcounts, can you please define to me what do you mean by the term “believing”? What does believing in someone entail?

 

[mmmcounts]

again, not ever was I taught that we are saved by our works.

That’s good, right? By grace, through faith. Not of works.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Which He shed on us abundantly through Christ Jesus our Savior.
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
But let’s not forget that it wasn’t by works of righteousness which we have done.

I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved because I have full confidence in the promises of Christ.

So you’re a number one. And an obedient one, at that. I know exactly where you got that answer from.

When I’m in Heaven.

Which is in response to the question “When did you/will you know that your faith is not misplaced?”

Frankly, this sounds a lot more like a Doubting Thomas answer than that of someone who has full confidence in the promises of Christ.

2 quick sidenotes: Someone asked what happens if you lose your salvation, can you get it back and if so how many times. Someone else replied God’s mercies are new every day or something along those lines. I thought there was something in the epistles about people who fall away, no return for them…maybe someone can find it. I can’t do it right now.

Second sidenote: Benedictus2, that’s not nice. Don’t be talking about beating my wife.
1holycatholic, I could talk about Iraeneus, Clement, Tertullian, and Origen. But this is something for a different thread. If you want to participate in this one, participate appropriately. If I do a thread on that topic, I guess you’re free to go find it and make things unpleasant for me. That would make you a bad person, though. But if that’s a price you’re willing to pay…Anyway, you could always do your own thread on this topic. I might participate if you ask nicely.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t care for either of the options. I think that we are saved and given grace when we are baptised. But we can lose that grace because we are given free will to choose.

We must confess our sins and then quit doing them completely. That is when we find that we are back in the state of grace.

But the bottom line is nothing can save us completely except for the Mercy of Christ. He died for ours sins so that we may be forgiven. But that does not give us instant salvation unless we never sin, which of course I have never seen that happen.

So in order for us to be saved we must live by the ten commandements. Stay away from as must evil as possible, do not let it bring us down, and if we do fall into sin, confess, and get on the right track as soon as possible.

Then when our day comes rely on Gods mercy and Love to do the rest.

 

[rinnie]

mmmcounts. How can you possibly live by the ten commandments without doing works?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

That’s good, right? By grace, through faith. Not of works.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

The Catholic Church teaches that our initial justification is not by our works - we can never do enough good works to impress God enough to save us! However, Jesus tells me that it is by my works that I will be judged, and the apostle James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells me that I cannot demonstrate my faith apart from works, and a faith devoid of works is dead.

By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Which He shed on us abundantly through Christ Jesus our Savior.

Yes, baptism is a very important sacrament!

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
But let’s not forget that it wasn’t by works of righteousness which we have done.

Nope, it is the works that God does through us that bring us to everlasting salvation.

So you’re a number one. And an obedient one, at that. I know exactly where you got that answer from.

No, I disagree with the way you phrased option 1.
If I may edit your option 1 to clarify for you:

1. The first step of [baptism begins our journey to] salvation, so sanctification is a process that [transforms us daily to become more and more like Christ]. This [absolutely does not mean] that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are [being] saved. Both [entirely Scriptural]. But maybe you can deal with it.

Which is in response to the question “When did you/will you know that your faith is not misplaced?”

Actually, “When I’m in Heaven” was in response to the question “At what point in the process can someone say they are saved?” and I admit I was being a little silly there.

Frankly, this sounds a lot more like a Doubting Thomas answer than that of someone who has full confidence in the promises of Christ.

Nope, it’s the sound of someone who is fully aware of her own sinfulness and shortcomings. He is completely faithful, would to God that I could be as faithful to Him.

2 quick sidenotes: Someone asked what happens if you lose your salvation, can you get it back and if so how many times. Someone else replied God’s mercies are new every day or something along those lines. I thought there was something in the epistles about people who fall away, no return for them…maybe someone can find it. I can’t do it right now.

You’re thinking, I believe, of Hebrews 6:4-6.
One doesn’t “lose” their salvation the same way one loses a set of keys, “OOPS!” One must make a conscious effort to walk away from God and doing His will. 2 Peter 2:20-21 says, “For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.”

To reject the knowledge of Christ and His Commandments is serious business and one cannot expect to get to Heaven if they’ve cut themselves off from Him.

 

[mmmcounts]

Before I answer, mmmcounts, can you please define to me what do you mean by the term “believing”? What does believing in someone entail?

This link points to some of the pitfalls and explanations associated with believing in Jesus. eadshome.com/BelieveinJesus.htm

 

[nuntym]

This link points to some of the pitfalls and explanations associated with believing in Jesus. eadshome.com/BelieveinJesus.htm

Ah, I am really thankful for that link, it is very informative and inspiring, IMHO.

I especially like what is said there:

To believe IN someone means that you earnestly follow every word and order your life after that person.
(my emphasis)

In that case, I’d go with option #2.

 

[mmmcounts]

mmmcounts. How can you possibly live by the ten commandments without doing works?

What do you gain by keeping the 10 commandments?

Hebrews 7
11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Sin is still sin, and keeping the commandments is still evidence of true faith as well as in keeping with Jesus’ expectations for those who live righteous lives. But no amount of do-gooding will save you. But there is a better hope. And you know why there is a better hope? Because the former regulation was weak and useless and made nothing perfect. We can do nothing to make ourselves perfect. Jesus alone can make us perfect. Now we skip ahead to Hebrews 10.

8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

I guess this is why you want to know if keeping the commandments requires effort.

But the bottom line is nothing can save us completely except for the Mercy of Christ. He died for ours sins so that we may be forgiven. But that does not give us instant salvation unless we never sin, which of course I have never seen that happen.

Contrast that statement with this one.

We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel “apart from works prescribed by the law” (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

When it says “We confess together,” that refers to the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.

And this last one is you again.

So in order for us to be saved we must live by the ten commandements.

The link to the joint Lutheran-Catholic thing is here. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html#_ftnref18
I understand how you want to emphasize Romans 6 and discourage people from living in sin, which we have died to. Also take into account Romans 3, though (famous for the copious use of “mn gevoitas”)- start at verse 19 and continue through the part that should be titled “Righteousness through Faith” or something like that.

All in all, it is by the law that we become conscious of sin (ch. 3 v. 20) and it’s helpful to know what sin is if we’re going to be righteous. But we don’t get saved by keeping the 10 commandments.

Verse 21: “But now, a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known…” Verses 27-28: “Where, then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”

Don’t get the wrong idea, though. The law is not abolished. It is fulfilled. Verse 31: “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” I’m not saying it’s good to ignore the 10 commandments. That would be one of the things that causes Paul to say “God forbid!” However, he also addresses whether or not a person is justified by observing the law. And he says you’re not.

So to answer your question, yes it does require human effort to keep the 10 commandments and keep God’s law in general. No, you are not justified by observing the law.

 

[Tonks40]

What do you gain by keeping the 10 commandments?

So to answer your question, yes it does require human effort to keep the 10 commandments and keep God’s law in general. No, you are not justified by observing the law.

But you’re missing one important element - keeping the law of God and the 10 commandments must be done so in Faith. Justification has already happened with the Sacrifice of Christ. Our process in sanctification should be reflected in how much we obey His commands.

Man alone adhering to the laws of God cannot garner anything apart from God. This is an understanding of the Gospel that both Catholics and non-Catholic should agree on with no debate.

 

[benedictus2]

. We can do nothing to make ourselves perfect. Jesus alone can make us perfect.

True. What does it mean though to be made perfect? What does perfection consist of ?

All in all, it is by the law that we become conscious of sin (ch. 3 v. 20) and it’s helpful to know what sin is if we’re going to be righteous. But we don’t get saved by keeping the 10 commandments.

How doyou reconcile your above statement with this passage from Luke 18:
An official asked him this question, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20 You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’” 21 And he replied, “All of these I have observed from my youth.” 22 5 When Jesus heard this he said to him, “There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Don’t get the wrong idea, though. The law is not abolished. It is fulfilled.

What do you understand by this, that the law is not abolished but fulfilled?

So to answer your question, yes it does require human effort to keep the 10 commandments and keep God’s law in general. No, you are not justified by observing the law.

How do you understand justification? How does it work?

 

[benedictus2]

Believing in Jesus obviously leads to salvation by grace through faith. The remaining question is this. Is sanctification also salvation? If the answer is no, you should choose option 2. If the answer is yes, you must decide if it is more of the same salvation that was gained by grace through faith (filling up what is incomplete, if you will), or perhaps it is a different kind of salvation that must be gained in addition to the first salvation.

Anyway, what’s your choice?

A true Christian cannot pick any. The correct answer is not in the multiple choice. There should have been an option 4 that said none of the above.

That is why my first post on this thread was "When did you stop beating your wife?.

The choices are a trap.

 

[nuntym]

A true Christian cannot pick any. The correct answer is not in the multiple choice. There should have been an option 4 that said none of the above.

That is why my first post on this thread was "When did you stop beating your wife?.

The choices are a trap.

You are right benedictus. Right after sending my reply I had doubts, and I actually read the articles on justification, salvation, and sanctifying grace from the Catechism and the Catholic Encyclopedia. And from reading those, I immediately saw that my response was wrong, and there should have been a “None of the above” choice.

I withdraw from this discussion until have understood the Catholic view on this issue well.

 

[mmmcounts]

A true Christian cannot pick any. The correct answer is not in the multiple choice. There should have been an option 4 that said none of the above.

That is why my first post on this thread was "When did you stop beating your wife?.

The choices are a trap.

The choices are not a trap. The fact that you can create an invalid question does not invalidate mine. The options are created by answering two questions.

One: As you are sanctified, do you also receive salvation? There are two options here: Yes or no. What’s your rationale for calling this question invalid? Your example of an invalid question presupposed that I have been beating my wife. And, for what it’s worth, that I have a wife in the first place. What does this question presuppose? I submit the option of nothing.

Two: If you answered yes (a legit conclusion that you are free to stop me from coming to), is this salvation the same as what you receive prior to sanctification or different from that? The only presupposition that I make at this point is that a person who believes in Jesus (not just believing He exists- this is what it means to believe In Jesus eadshome.com/BelieveinJesus.htm or themoorings.org/doctrine/issues/gospel/essence.html) receives salvation. This is a reasonable presupposition. If you’re suggesting that a person who believes in Jesus (as the Bible presents such a thing) is not saved, it’s true that you’d be unable to answer the question- not because of something wrong with the question, though, but with you.

For example, i ask you how long you have been saved (not so unlike asking you how long you’ve been beating your wife). There is a presupposition to each of these questions. The one about the wife is not a valid question because you haven’t been beating your wife, or perhaps you don’t even have a wife to beat. However, the question about how long you’ve been saved SHOULD be a valid question if you call yourself a Christian. If you feel that it’s not a valid question, that can only be because you are not saved. If you have been saved for any length of time, it is necessarily a valid question.

Can I ask you how long you have been a Catholic? This would be a valid question to put to you, but not to me. You see how this works?

Anyway, the presupposition that a Christian is saved is not as ridiculous as you’re trying to make it sound. Provided that you are a Christian, it’s reasonable to assume that you are (in some way) saved.

 

[benedictus2]

The choices are not a trap. The fact that you can create an invalid question does not invalidate mine. The options are created by answering two questions.

One: As you are sanctified, do you also receive salvation? There are two options here:

And that is why I posted the question "Have you stopped beating you wife?

If you say No, then that means you are still beating your wife. If you say yes, then it means you used to beat your wife. How do you answer if you have never ever beaten your wife?

Your question above is the same, it presupposes that which has not been established yet.

It is called circular reasoning or begging the question.

And that is why what needs to be established first is how you understand sanctification, justification and salvation. Come to think about it. You need to know the action of grace on free will as well.

I have posed that question to you before, but you decided to ignore that.

Salvation is not a thing you receive as someone else pointed out.

 

[benedictus2]

The choices are not a trap. The fact that you can create an invalid question does not invalidate mine. The options are created by answering two questions.

One: As you are sanctified, do you also receive salvation? There are two options here: Yes or no. What’s your rationale for calling V
V
V
Provided that you are a Christian, it’s reasonable to assume that you are (in some way) saved.

If you had phrased your question like: " How are we saved? What does sanctification have to do with salvation? " then it would not have been a trap because people are then able to explain what they understand about the interplay of grace and free-will on salvation and sanctification.

But the way it is phrased it is a trap. Because the correct choice is not there. It currently looks like picking the least erroneous option.

 

[mmmcounts]

True. What does it mean though to be made perfect? What does perfection consist of ?

As with being justified, it is God’s act of declaring a sinner this or that before God. If you read the end of Hebrews 11, it becomes clear that it’s only through Jesus that anyone (past present or future) can be made perfect.

How doyou reconcile your above statement with this passage from Luke 18:

 

[mmmcounts]

If you had phrased your question like: " How are we saved? What does sanctification have to do with salvation? " then it would not have been a trap because people are then able to explain what they understand about the interplay of grace and free-will on salvation and sanctification.

Again, the fundamental assumption regarding the presupposition is that you are currently saved. If this is true and it’s also true that you’re receiving salvation through sanctification (covered in the first question), then the next question is what is the nature of this “sanctification salvation.” Is it the same as or different from the salvation you received just prior to sanctification? If the fundamental assumption that you are saved is incorrect, I must wonder why you would spend so much time talking about these kinds of things.

 

[benedictus2]

As with being justified, it is God’s act of declaring a sinner this or that before God. If you read the end of Hebrews 11, it becomes clear that it’s only through Jesus that anyone (past present or future) can be made perfect.

All you are doing here however is saying that only Jesus can make us perfect which I have already agreed with. This does not answer my question of what you think perfection means. Is it a one moment affair i.e. you are made perfect and that’s it you cannot be un-perfect after that? How does one tell that one has been made perfect?

Here’s a link. jesuswalk.com/lessons/18_18-23.htm. The rich guy asks what he must do to be saved. Jesus says “You know the commandments” and lists some of them. He does not tell him adherence to these commandments will grant him eternal life-

Actually He does. When the man asks what he must do Jesus answers with the commandments. So straight from his mouth is the answer that we must follow the commandments to gain eternal life. If he did not mean it, he would not have said it. Jesus does not waste words.

in fact, he says just the opposite.

Actually he does NOT say the opposite. What he does is ADD another pre-requisite.

When the young man says he’s kept them all, Jesus gives him one more thing to do.

Which is an additional thing TO DO not a negation of the commandments.

The thing that Jesus required of the man involves giving up everything to follow him.

follow Jesus- effectively, and proving with actions, making everything else in his life less important than Jesus. Oh, then Jesus says “Come follow me.” Do you really think he meant that the man should simply follow him around?

No I don’t

There’s obviously more to it than that.

You are right there.

(I followed the Pope around for a little while. Does that make me Catholic?) I guess the shortest explanation I can give is that it means to be a disciple of Jesus,

Bingo! But what does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus?

which means more than just following him places. In fact, here’s an exact definition. “Someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.”

You’re right but that is only half of the equation. Discipleship is in the Beautiftudes and in Matthew 25: 31-46 which is MORE than just believing or acknowledging that Jesus is God.

It consists in following His command to love one another as He loves us.

Question again: How do we love one another as He loves us? Is that love a feeling or is that manifested in deeds?

Jesus told the rich young ruler that he had to “sell everything” (demonstrate that kind of belief) and then set out as a disciple of him. The rich young ruler was not able to demonstrate that kind of belief. He had some sort of belief, I’m sure. He believed Jesus existed. He was a monotheistic person. He even believed Jesus was a “good teacher” and someone to “follow.” But did he truly believe? Was he able to demonstrate that kind of belief and follow Jesus? Apparently not. This is a guy whose belief was put to the test and found lacking. He could have easily followed Jesus around- roughly analogous to the mere assertion that Jesus exists and He died for sins. But he wasn’t prepared to really Follow Jesus in the sense that Jesus demanded. (For those of you still wondering, this has a lot to do with what it means to Believe In Jesus).

Now you’re talking.

We see other people do it throughout the Gospels- Jesus calls them, they leave what they were doing, and immediately follow him.

And not just in the Gospels. We see priests and nuns who have given up everything to follow Jesus. We see this in the lives of saints.

The point of this passage is that if you have a lot going on, it’s hard to get yourself to leave all of it and show that you love Jesus more than it.

That is right. There is a cost to discipleship. Following Jesus is going to cost us ourselves. Following Jesus means being free. Free from attachments. But that is just the beginning.

Following Jesus means you believe in Him, love Him, and follow Him ahead of everything else. So it’s a good idea do make sure you don’t start loving things so much that you can’t love Jesus more. That’s what I got out of it.

But the question keeps coming up: what does it mean to follow Christ? Here all you are doing is just re-iterating that we must follow Him but what does following Him entail?
Your next line about loving Jesus is almost there but then again what does it mean to love Jesus? So now we go back to the Beautifudes and Matthew 25. There are other passages but these are the ones that clearly show us what is asked us.

What did you get out of it? Some kind of works-based salvation loophole?

I think my comments have already answered that question for you.

I will answer the rest tomorrow as I am now off to the land of nod.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

PD:

I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved because I have full confidence in the promises of Christ.

I know exactly where you got that answer from.

The Bible!

 

[mmmcounts]

This does not answer my question of what you think perfection means. Is it a one moment affair i.e. you are made perfect and that’s it you cannot be un-perfect after that? How does one tell that one has been made perfect?

Galatians 3.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.