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1holycatholic
Guest
There is no suffering in Heaven and those in Hell are not saved. What is this third place or state called?
Regarding salvation, which of these three options do you think is most accurate?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Mike-
I’m not sure you are using the terms the same way that Catholics do…could you please provide brief definitions of:
Thanks.
I’m not sure you are using the terms the same way that Catholics do…could you please provide brief definitions of:
- Justfication
- Sanctification
- Salvation
Thanks.
M
mmmcounts
Guest
There is no third place or state. Everyone at the Judgment Seat of Christ proceeds to heaven. Some receive more reward than others for their works done on earth. This reward does not in any way refer to salvation.
Everyone not at the Judgment Seat of Christ is at the Great White Throne Judgment. They wind up being cast into the Lake of Fire, but before that they are also judged for their works and condemned/punished accordingly.
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paul_c
Guest
mmmcounts,
You have a very poor understanding of Catholicism at this point. The more you learn, the more you will want to join us. Right now, you are heavily burdened by mistaken Catholic Doctrines and a big part of your misunderstanding starts with not understanding Catholic terminology.
When Catholics are baptized into the faith, they are justified before the Lord, having been cleansed of original sin. This puts a person into the state of Grace. This **initial justification **is completely without merit on the part of the individual and is a free gift of God that resulted from Jesus’s sacrifice.
Now unlike you, we believe that grace can be lost if we sin. If that sin is mortal, meaning that is Serious, intentional, and is understood to be mortal when it is committed, we lose grace entirely. This grace can be regained however, through the sacrament of reconciliation if we are contrite, repentent and do penance. For catholics, life is **continual justification **and sanctification. If we end our lives in the state of Grace, we are rewarded with eternal life, To do so, we must have faith, have done good works to demonstrate that faith and have been sacramentally cleansed of whatever sins we have committed. If we fall from Grace, we are condemned. It is possible to be saved in the last moments of our lives if we end with a good, contrite confession during last rites. This is a sign of God’s great mercy… We ultimately have the choice to go to heaven or hell. In the end, its whether we are willing to do God’s will or whether we place our own desires ahead of it…
Your view of eternal justification is very strange indeed to Catholics. We understand that birth is only the start of life and we still need to live it well in order to be rewarded. There is no reward for simply being born. Keep in mind, however, that God owes us no reward. Afterall, what claim can we make on God, who gave us everything including our lives. However, he promised to reward us if we do his will and we put our trust in that - not because he has to, but because he has said he wants to… Furthermore, we want to do his will because of love, not because of fear of punishment or desire for reward
Now you say that man must do good works, but to what end? You say it is good, but there are no ramifications either way. Why does this make sense.
The fact is, your theology is not supported by scripture. I have pointed out to you that 3 times in Matthew’s gospel alone, Jesus says that eternal life is the reward for DOING God’s will. No where in scripture does it say that eternal life is the reward for Faith alone. No where will you find Jesus saying, " I have done everything for you, so I require nothing more from you". In fact, he is clear that we have the responsibility to do God’s will. When you deny that, you are denying the entire life of Jesus, where he taught us to follow him…
Think once more about this concept. What would be the best way for Satan to keep people from Doing God’s will? Wouldn’t it be to convince people that Jesus already saved them and that there is nothing more to be done? That is his trap for Protestants. It is so effective that most Protestants on this board can not grasp what St. James so clearly says," Faith without works is dead."
I hope this helps you…
You have a very poor understanding of Catholicism at this point. The more you learn, the more you will want to join us. Right now, you are heavily burdened by mistaken Catholic Doctrines and a big part of your misunderstanding starts with not understanding Catholic terminology.
When Catholics are baptized into the faith, they are justified before the Lord, having been cleansed of original sin. This puts a person into the state of Grace. This **initial justification **is completely without merit on the part of the individual and is a free gift of God that resulted from Jesus’s sacrifice.
Now unlike you, we believe that grace can be lost if we sin. If that sin is mortal, meaning that is Serious, intentional, and is understood to be mortal when it is committed, we lose grace entirely. This grace can be regained however, through the sacrament of reconciliation if we are contrite, repentent and do penance. For catholics, life is **continual justification **and sanctification. If we end our lives in the state of Grace, we are rewarded with eternal life, To do so, we must have faith, have done good works to demonstrate that faith and have been sacramentally cleansed of whatever sins we have committed. If we fall from Grace, we are condemned. It is possible to be saved in the last moments of our lives if we end with a good, contrite confession during last rites. This is a sign of God’s great mercy… We ultimately have the choice to go to heaven or hell. In the end, its whether we are willing to do God’s will or whether we place our own desires ahead of it…
Your view of eternal justification is very strange indeed to Catholics. We understand that birth is only the start of life and we still need to live it well in order to be rewarded. There is no reward for simply being born. Keep in mind, however, that God owes us no reward. Afterall, what claim can we make on God, who gave us everything including our lives. However, he promised to reward us if we do his will and we put our trust in that - not because he has to, but because he has said he wants to… Furthermore, we want to do his will because of love, not because of fear of punishment or desire for reward
Now you say that man must do good works, but to what end? You say it is good, but there are no ramifications either way. Why does this make sense.
The fact is, your theology is not supported by scripture. I have pointed out to you that 3 times in Matthew’s gospel alone, Jesus says that eternal life is the reward for DOING God’s will. No where in scripture does it say that eternal life is the reward for Faith alone. No where will you find Jesus saying, " I have done everything for you, so I require nothing more from you". In fact, he is clear that we have the responsibility to do God’s will. When you deny that, you are denying the entire life of Jesus, where he taught us to follow him…
Think once more about this concept. What would be the best way for Satan to keep people from Doing God’s will? Wouldn’t it be to convince people that Jesus already saved them and that there is nothing more to be done? That is his trap for Protestants. It is so effective that most Protestants on this board can not grasp what St. James so clearly says," Faith without works is dead."
I hope this helps you…
M
mmmcounts
Guest
That’s a decent point, Jesus’ blood wasn’t shed yet. I’ve never looked into the exact point where the New Covenant began- it’s nowhere close to my lifetime, though, so it doesn’t directly affect me. I guess the rich young ruler wasn’t able at this point to trust in the sacrifice of Jesus to cleanse him of his sins. What is clear from this passage, though, is that the rich young ruler adhered to the Old Covenant quite well. The rich young ruler loved God. He did what God wanted him to do as per the Old Covenant. However, it’s also true that if you’ve seen Jesus, you’ve seen the Father, and if you don’t know Jesus, you don’t know the Father. If you don’t love Jesus, you don’t love the Father. That kind of idea. I think this passage is applicable in more ways to Jews who don’t know Jesus than it is to Gentiles who don’t know Jesus. I also think his situation is slightly different than the one we’re in now; as you pointed out, Jesus hadn’t died yet. It’s good to keep that in mind.
What’s really interesting is how this guy kept the OC pretty well, but he still asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Most of the teachers of the law- almost all of them- felt that they were all set and needed nothing else. The rich young ruler was a good guy who loved God and realized his need for a savior, but he counted his earthly treasure as more valuable than heavenly treasure. Had you noticed that part before about having treasure in heaven? I hadn’t until just now. Anyway, it’s sad that he was one who demonstrated how not to receive eternal life.
Read Ephesians 1 and 2. These chapters contain so much non-Catholic doctrine as you seem to understand it…it might help you understand what makes us different. I know, I know, Catholic doctrine is supposed to be in accordance with Scripture, but still. In chapter 1, there’s verses 7 and 8 and then 13 and 14 especially. In chapter 2, there’s verses 5, 8 and 9 (especially 9- not of works), and 19. But then you see verses 20-22 and they’re the only ones that matter to you out of the entirety of both chapters. If you pay attention to the rest of the chapter that comes before it, you might understand something about salvation.
All I did was assert that something Jesus said was true. I’m not deluding myself. As for “loose terminology,” how about those Catholics who regularly use the same term “saved” to refer to being born again, being sanctified, and the act of entering heaven, all interchangeably? Now that’s some loose terminology.
Interesting that you should present a question as a statement. Back to Ephesians 1 and 2 we go…see if you can find the answer. I’ll give you a hint: It’s found in two of the verses that I pointed out as non-Catholic material. They’re in chapter 1, and I added “especially” to the non-Catholic tag. Did you find them yet?
Does Ephesians help clarify? I understand that Catholics like to talk about how they were saved, they are being saved, and they will be saved. We’re talking about being born again, being marked with a seal, receiving the Holy Spirit, and the guarantee of what is to come (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5, Ephesians 1:14)…right?
Romans 5:9, Romans 8:2.
Ephesians 2:10. Right after it says salvation is “not of works,” it says what we are saved unto. There’s other verses that say something of the same effect. Some people make the mistake of taking this and identifying it as what we are saved by, though. That’s kind of irritating.
It’s not of works, I’ll tell you that much. When you admit that, I’ll tell you more. Deal?
Romans 6 is a good read. Verses 9 and 10 might be the ones you’re having trouble with, but you should read the whole chapter. The end of 1 Peter 3 starting in verse 18 may also be of some help. It talks about the pledge of a good conscience toward God. In Hebrews 10 where the topic is Christ’s sacrifice once for all, it talks about being cleansed of a guilty conscience in more detail. Search the Bible for answers to these kinds of questions.
I’m a little curious about where you found your teflon coated thing. I wasn’t able to find it anywhere. Did you make it up yourself?
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1holycatholic
Guest
The text is crystal clear.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
As are the writings of the early Church. They are praying for the dead to end their suffering “as through fire.”
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’”
- (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp”]160]).
- (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp”]202*]).
*]There is suffering in Heaven.
*]Those in Hell are saved.
Which is it?
Please provide citations for your private interpretation of Scripture from the writings of the early Church Fathers.
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paul_c
Guest
Read Ephesians 1 and 2. These chapters contain so much non-Catholic doctrine as you seem to understand it…it might help you understand what makes us different. I know, I know, Catholic doctrine is supposed to be in accordance with Scripture, but still. In chapter 1, there’s verses 7 and 8 and then 13 and 14 especially. In chapter 2, there’s verses 5, 8 and 9 (especially 9- not of works), and 19. But then you see verses 20-22 and they’re the only ones that matter to you out of the entirety of both chapters. If you pay attention to the rest of the chapter that comes before it, you might understand something about salvation.
mmmcounts:
Just a little advice,. Stop assuming you understand Catholic Doctrine. State what you believe and we’ll explain Catholic Doctrine to you, both where it agrees and where it opposes you.
So lets explore your Ephesian references in view of Catholic thought.
Why do you assume this means we are instantly and for all times saved at the instance of our belief. We Catholics read this to say:
1: We are initially redeemed by his blood, without which no one can be saved.
2. We are forgiven our sins through his grace, initially through baptism and then subsequently through the sacrament of reconciliation. Through these sacraments we recieve his Graces
3. He has given the Catholic Church (the “us” to which Paul refers) the wisdom and insight to understand his will
.
Again, a Catholic reading of this quote:
He is talking about how the Ephesians heard the word of truth, believed in ham and were sealed with the Holy Spirit through Baptism. Notice that this is the FIRST installment of our inheritance of our inheritance (which is grace). We describe this as initial justification. We get further graces through the sacraments and through our works. Note, he clearly says this is the FIRST installment, not the ONLY installment.
Again, a Catholic intepretation of this passage:
We were given initial justification, through no merit of our own simply through the mercy of God and the Sacrifice of Jesus. We all need to recognize that we didn’t do anything on our own to get the doors to heaven open and we have no rights before God. However, this passage does not negate the rest of scripture, which clearly says that after this initial justification, we must demonstrate our faith through good works in order to keep in God’s good Graces and to be REWARDED with eternal life. This REWARD is not a wage earned, but a free gift promised to us by God if we do his will.
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broski234
Guest
In Hebrew, it was called Sheol. In Greek, Hades and in Latin, Purgatory.
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1holycatholic
Guest
I know it and you know it. In fact, Christians have always known it. I wanted our resident historical revisionists to acknowledge it. It is clearly in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the historical record.
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broski234
Guest
That’s one I haven’t heard before. That’s funny!:extrahappy:
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benedictus2
Guest
No, it is not about mortal sin. It is more like the sin against the Holy Spirit that Jesus Speaks of.
Actually no. 1 Cor 3 speaks only of wages and proportionate reward. The wage is still the same (union with God). I suppose those who live holier lives become more united to God.
This passage is actually about the cleansing we will go through in purgatory and has no revelation 20 at all.
As I have mentioned above, this has nothing to do with 1 Cor 3.
How about because this “understanding” of how salvation works IS DIVINE CHILD ABUSE and God IS NOT A CHILD ABUSER.
Notice my emphasis on “Understanding’
Here is 1 Peter 2:24 :He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Yes, Christ died for us. Yes he bore our sins. But it does not mean that God PUNISHED Christ in our place.
You wrote:
Hey, you’re the one who said you have to do good works in order to be saved. You going to retract that comment or not? If not, I don’t have to stand by what I said- you do it for me.
So I replied:
Read Matthew 25:31-46. You have an issue with Christ’s words?
So what does your reply below have anything to do with my post.
).
You are not sure? You do not know that the reward is to be united with God Himself?
If that is the case, how do you even know that the reward is worth it?
[/quote]
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MariaG
Guest
I will repost this very important question.
And listen to the Catholic explanations instead of tell us we don’t know our own faith. And understand that none here have said we are initially justified by anything but grace alone.
Listen to what is said, CAREFULLY, and not what you think we believe.
But you first need to understand CATHOLIC definitions of the above words!!!
Sharing yours will help us to explain ours to you
The same words are being used but the same meaning is just not there.
God Bless,
Maria
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mmmcounts
Guest
Justification- seen by most as the theological fault line that originally divided the RCC from the Protestants. This document represents the only attempt I know of to repair this rift. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Sanctification- separation to the service of God. Sanctification is effected by God the Father, by Christ, and by the Holy Spirit. We are sanctified through the atonement of Christ. As a result of being sanctified, we are “prepared unto every good work.” The result of these works is treasure in heaven.
Salvation- Luke 1:77. The complete forgiveness of sins. It wasn’t possible until Jesus died for us, but now it is.
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benedictus2
Guest
So you think that because you have been “saved” by proclaiming Christ as your Lord and Saviour you are therefore sinless and will never ever commit any sin?
I doubt if that is true. You still sin just like the rest of us.
What happens should you die very unexpectedly after commiting a venial sin? Now that sin, however venial stains your soul and makes it unclean.
You cannot go to heaven because you are unclean and nothing unclean will enter heaven.
If there are only two states then sorry to say this but you are on an express route to hell. For a small sin you are damned. Rather unjust don’t you think?
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benedictus2
Guest
This does not address the question of what justification means. What does justification mean to you. That is the question. How do YOU understand justification?
That is a narrower view of sanctification. To sanctify is to make holy, purified. As Jesus said: we need to be holy as the father is holy.
But what does it mean to be made holy, to be sanctified. To be made holy is to be cleansed. Sanctification is the process of cleansing us from our sins. When we have been cleansed completely of our sins then we have been made holy. We have been sanctified.
It is a process.
Salvation is not simply the forgiveness of sin because after we have been forgiven we still sin so how can we say that we are saved?
It is the deliverance from sin. As long as we are here on earth we have not been completely delivered from sin. Otherwise, all Christians as from their baptism are sinless. Which is untrue. St Paul himself says that sin dwells in him.
We have been given the grace and means to be delivered from sin but the game is not over yet. That is why we need to keep following Jesus.
Here is an analogy. We are all down the pit where there are snakes and all sorts of horrid torment. Now from the pit to the top (where true salvation is) is a long way.
We need to make it to the top and Jesus has come to pick us up from the pit and help us climb this daunting rock face.
Just because Jesus has come down and asked us to hang on to him that it is smooth sailing from here on. Every now and again we get distracted by some alluring creature here and there so loosen our grip on Jesus.A few times we actually completely let go. When the climb is over and we are already on the top it is only then that we can say that we have been saved.
But it is a long way to the top and we need to keep hanging on to Jesus. If we don’t get distracted and just clung tightly to Jesus, the trip will be accomplished much more quickly.
We are all the same though. We trip and fall every now and again. But because of His love He goes after us time and again to make sure we do not completely fall.
Some however will completely shun His offer of salvation.
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Zooey
Guest
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Since justification includes sanctification, it would appear as if I agree with number one? If “include” means the same to you as is sanctification also salvation.
However, I know from past discussions, that Catholic definitions of sanctification are not always the same as non-Catholic.
So I guess my answer is
God Bless,
Maria
OK: You’re wrong.
Then its not a judgment. Which makes nonsense of Scripture.
Either its a judgment (in which case, you are making no sense here), or
the Bible makes no sense.Ergo, your argument is wrong.
You are the one having “candy given out”.
Yes; in purgatory.
"mmmcounts:
Gee, thanks.
No,but I have a BIG problem with you imposing your own artificial theology on the Bible.
You’re right; he isn’t.
In fact, he isn’t using the terms the way that Fr Wesley used them either.
Its more like an attempt to demand that Catholics decide whether they are
Presbyterian/Baptist Catholics or Methodist Catholics.:doh2:
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1holycatholic
Guest
What has become clear is that mmmcounts has become a great defender of purgatory by frequently citing the Sacred Scriptures referring to it.
:yup:
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benedictus2
Guest
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mmmcounts
Guest
I’ve given you absolutely no reason to believe I take this to be true. Why would you invent something like this?
You state that a Christian gets stains on his/her soul from sins committed post-conversion. Please do give me some Scripture that pertains to that. I suspect that your story on the matter is one that you can’t exegete very well.
Actually, I can. I don’t deserve to, and I could never enter heaven on my own merit. The same is true for you. That’s why we need Jesus, silly.
I was on an express route to hell until Jesus saved me from my sins. He bought me with His blood and paid my debt to sin. Now I belong to Him forever, I have received the Holy Spirit, and I am sanctified (set apart) by God in accordance with His plan for His holy purpose and use that He knew about before I ever existed.
Oh, and one more thing about venial sins according to the Roman Catholic Church…apparently venial sins according to you are different from venial sins according to the RCC. Here’s how.
You say this:
The Roman Catholic Church definition says this:
You should really become more familiar with your own faith before you try to instruct others about it. If you’re curious about general similarities and differences between Catholics and Protestants concerning mortal and venial sins, this link provides you with an essay that does a pretty good job of helping you understand some of the details on what’s going on there.
religioustolerance.org/tony01.htm
Last point: This is another definition of “venial sin” that I ran across.
Venial sin: Within the Roman Catholic church, a minor transgression against God, the church or another human. The consequences of a venial sin can be compensated for through good works.
For me, regarding sin in this way is very problematic. It states that sin can be “compensated for” by good works- in other words, your “venial sins” can be forgiven based on the merit of something you did. Does this perspective on the forgiveness of sin disturb you as well? I suggest that it should. In Ephesians 1:7, it says this.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Can you give me a verse or two that says we have redemption through our works, which grant us forgiveness of sins? I doubt it. Look at what Galatians 2:20-21 says.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!
Do you live by faith in the Son of God? Or have you set aside the grace of God and believed that righteousness can be gained through the law, thus mocking the Cross? Some Catholics will agree with that sentiment as far as venial sins go:
The consequences of a venial sin can be compensated for through good works.
Do you believe this? Are you one of “those Catholics?”
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benedictus2
Guest
Not my invention at all. Just a conclusion derived from your statement.benedictus2:
I’ve given you absolutely no reason to believe I take this to be true. Why would you invent something like this?
If you have been “saved” and assured of your salvation then that means you will never ever sin again.
Now why do I say that. Because to be so sure of entry into heaven, you have to be completely clean and free from sin because nothing unclean will enter heaven.
Now the only way you can be sure of that is if you believe that once you are “saved” you can no longer sin.
Becuase if you believe that you can still sin, then that means there is a chance of death (ie damnation) because death is the wages of sin and as I have said above nothing unclean will enter heaven.
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