Dave, don’t forget Gen 22. James 2 states that Abraham was justified for what he did after Gen 15. Thus, there are three examples of Abraham being justified in Genesis. This certainly does not testify to a one time imputation.
Thanks Redbandito, I should have included that as well…
But only to the “path.” That doctrine can only set your foot down on the “path.” Much now depends on you, whether or not you’re going to either maintain that “initial” justification, increase it, or even lose it altogether. The “path” you have chosen certainly provides you with directions (sacraments and canon law), but not even those “directions” assure you that you’ll actually arrive at the destination. No Catholic (contrary to the divine instructions I was given) believes he can know for certain, in this lifetime, whether or not he HAS (possesses now) eternal life. He can only “hope” (but not with certainty) that, in the end, he’ll be “judged” worthy.
Very true. But even before He states that through His bond-servant, Paul, He reveals that we were all "sons of disobedience, and “by nature children of wrath.” But God, being rich in mercy and because of His great love with which He loved us (me), even when we (I) were dead in our (my) transgressions (now speaking to true believers) “made us (me) alive together with Christ Jesus.”
I did not say “to the end.” I do not at all relate “perseverence” in respect to faith with that Matthew passage. Phil, that verse in Matt. 24:13 states NOTHING about endurance “of faith.” It simply says “But to the one who endures to the end, it is he who shall be saved.” It is you who reads into that verse your own doctrinal bias.
Again, that still has nothing to do with what I said. I am not arguing justification with you right now. I was simply responding that initial justification accounts for the past event. Nothing more. I don’t have the time or energy to debate this with you right now. I made a simple point, and had nothing to do with what you are talking about right now. You are discussing justification in the present and future tense. I was not trying to go there.
Actually, as I understand it, the distinction is primarily a Protestant construct. We are justified with the Lord through being forgiven your sin and need to remain so by striving to not repeat them (and then go to confession to regain our justification) and we increase in sanctification as we strive to conform ourselves to the will of God.
Yes, in fact it’s the crux of Paul’s argument in Rom. 4. Abraham BELIEVED God and it (his faith) was reckoned as righteousness. Paul goes on to ask WHEN he was reckoned righteous, while circimcised or uncircumcised? NOT while circumcised is the answer. Paul quoted Gen. 15:6 which was when the divine reckoning actually took place (so does James). Twenty some years even before the attempted sacrifice of his promised son Isaac.
Not true according to the text. ONLY in Gen. 15:6 is it stated “THEN he believed God and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” It was when Abraham believed God concerning his promised son, Isaac, and his subsequent many descendants, that God reckoned him righteous. A prefiguration of all those whom He (God) would declare righteous/justified through faith in His Son whom He promised would come into this world. Not even in Gen. 22, where the account of Abraham, in faith, attemps to sacrifice Isaac, did God repeat what he said to Abraham back in Gen. 15:6. The Genesis text testifies against you.
The Greek word “eti” (still) does not mean “again,” but “yet.” "Let the one who does wrong, yet do wrong; the one who is filthy, yet be filthy, righteous, yet practice righteousness. It is solemnly speaking to a permanence of character. One man states it quite eloquetly. The Book of Revelation is about life in the last days, the end of this present age:
Bene, you just described exactly what the Catholic position is on initial justification, with the exception of the “faith…alone” comment and the remarks about a sacramental system (of which you clearly don’t understand). I don’t see your argument.
Wow! Are you arguing FOR the Catholic position or against it? This confirms exactly what I wrote earlier, and again testifies to an initial justification. It also speaks to the fact that all our works are meritorious specifically because I am now regenerate and they are viewed through the eyes of a loving Father (grace).
The life he receives in Christ is everlasting, as long as he doesn’t fall from his life (or state of grace, which has already been addressed). You aren’t addressing the issue. We agree with you on this. To say otherwise shows that you are still arguing against a strawman (or what you perceive the Church to be teaching here).
Amen on your first paragraph here! Totally agree other than your accussation that it is a “bumpy road”. Christ does give eternal life to those who believe. Just not to those who believe one time and then cease to “work their salvation out in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). And not to those who believe ALONE. You accuse Phil of “reading in…your own doctrinal bias”, but you do the exact same thing. The verse you use doesn’t get anywhere near saying what you assert. Nowhere does it teach that this belief is a one time event, nor does it teach that it is by this belief ALONE. Just like Peter doesn’t mean “baptism saves” us ALONE, neither does Paul or John believe it is y faith ALONE. That’s your theology, not the Scriptures.
So, do you believe that James is the Word of God? Because if you do, James states, in no uncertain terms that, "**21Was not our ancestor ABRAHAM CONSIDERED RIGHTEOUS FOR WHAT HE DID WHEN HE OFFERED HIS SON ISAAC ON THE ALTAR? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” **If you believe that James is the Word of God, then your claim that God did not repeat what he said to Abraham in Gen 15 is absolutely false! You aren’t getting around this one. Abraham was “credited righteousness” in 15 and 22. Your claim that James said this was fulfilled in 15 is nowhere substantiated by the context. You are reaching FAR on this one.
Thanks CaRose.
I don’t think Paul is saying anything about a believer being judged in this passage. What Paul is saying is that the unbeliever will be judged by his deeds, but with the believer, it is only his deeds that will be judged, and that to determine his reward in heaven.
NP
Actually Red, James is quoting from Gen 15:6.
I have made this claim toward your position as well—that your understanding of James puts him at odds with Paul.
That is uncalled for. For those of us who have labored to learn Greek, it is a blessing, and for me, a hard-earned one at that.
I would go along with Spurgeon that Abraham had a “genuine faith,” in Ch 12. Paul also tells us in Gal 3 that, at that time, God preached the Gospel to Abraham as well. No declaration of Abraham’s righteousness is clearly given until Gen 15. That righteousness is an alien righteousness, gained by Christ and appropriated by faith, in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). The believer’s righteousness now sits at the right hand of the Father. I made a case earlier on this thread, that the believer’s justification is a “declaration” of righteousness, a forensic righteousness. I pointed this out using some O.T. examples, and N.T. examples.
And this is where you deny EVERYTHING I said in my post. You cannot “fall” from that which is eternal. You can’t lose that which you couldn’t earn in the first place. That’s always been the inconsistency of Catholicism, what they build up they eventually tear down.
I presented to you no assumptions, just what is revealed in writting.
Yes, Kendy, you’re right. God declares (reckons) the one who has put his trust in Christ as righteous. It is always spoken as something completed: “Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…” (Rom. 5:1, also read Rom. 4).