Regeneration/Born-Again

[Kendy]

Thanks Bene.

Kendy

bene7:

Yes, Kendy, you’re right. God declares (reckons) the one who has put his trust in Christ as righteous. It is always spoken as something completed: “Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…” (Rom. 5:1, also read Rom. 4).

However, there are actually three forms of “sanctification” revealed in Scripture for the believer: (1) Positional, (2) Experiential, (3) Ultimate.

Positional Sanctification:

All true believers are redeemed and cleansed by Christ’s precious blood, forgiven of all sins and “made righteous” now being “in Christ,” justified, purified and called “sons of God” (see 1 Cor. 6:11). “Sanctified” means separated. Believers are a distinct classification of people which have been separated eternally through the saving grace of Christ. Being in Christ we have been set apart. Positional sanctification is as perfect as He is perfect. As much as Christ is set apart, we who are now “in Him” are set apart. Positional sanctification is as complete for the weakest saint as it is for the strongest. It depends only on his union and position in Christ (and these are eternal). This is why all believers are classified in Scripture as “saints” (Rom. 1:7; see 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 13:13; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2). In fact believers are called “saints” 63 times in the N.T.

Experiential Sanctification:

Positional sanctification is disassociated with the believer’s daily life, whereas experiential sanctification has only to do with his daily life. How much a believer is sanctified in this life is dependent on the degree of his yieldedness to God, his separation from sin and his spiritual growth in Christ. It is to this willful, sanctification that Paul appeals when he writes: “I urge therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:1-2). All exhortations in the Epistles to live godly lives is addressed to the believer’s experiential sanctification - his walk of faith while on this earth.

Ultimate Sanctification:

This relates to the believer’s FINAL perfection in glory. At the resurrection of our bodies we will have so changed - spirit, soul and body - that we will be like Him, conformed to His image (see 1 John 3:2). Our position will be our eternal condition, all by His grace (unmerited favor) through Christ Jesus.

True believers are a very unique class of people on this earth, set apart, sanctified by God, through Christ, for His eternal purposes. That’s why we are constantly exhorted to “love the brethren.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

wpr:

Why only now in Chp 15 is Abraham imputed with irrevocable justification by God? Why not in Chapter 12 when he left his home to live in the Land of the Canaan? He had faith then as well. Did he not? Why not at the end of Chapter 14 when he kept the oath he made with God? If Abraham was already justified irrevocably in Chapter 15 why does God test him again in Chapter 22?

Number one, because it is stated that God reckoned his faith to him as righteousness ONLY in Gen. 15:6. The reason being is revealed in the context itself. I explained this in my previous post. Did you not understand it?

The purpose of establishing the time frame of Abraham’s circumcision in Rm 4 does not address justification by God in your OSAS definition.

You’re right, but it does establish his argumet that God justifies, by faith, both Jews and Gentiles alike, completely apart from works and solely on the basis of faith. And Paul is very clear in that God does not justify the “godly” man (which is the contention of Catholicism), but the UN-GODLY (Rom. 4:5).

Was Paul writing to the Romans from an ulterior motive - no!

Blessing,
Bene

 

[bene7]

wpr:

Abraham was already justified irrevocably in Chapter 15 why does God test him again in Chapter 22?

Chapter 22 doesn’t say God tested Abraham’s justification. “Abraham believed God and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” It was his faith that was tested, not his justification. Notice that his faith being reckoned righteous by God (Gen. 15), and the testing of his faith (Gen. 22), both instances involve his promised son. The first in that he would be born, even miracuously, the other that he would be delivered up to sacrifice. BOTH are* types* of Christ. Together they prefigure the believer’s reckoned righteousness through faith in the Son God Himself would delivered up for sacrifice. Abraham’s prophetic words are haunting in Gen. 22:8: “God will provide for Himself the lamb…”.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Redbandito]

sandusky:

I don’t think Paul is saying anything about a believer being judged in this passage. What Paul is saying is that the unbeliever will be judged by his deeds, but with the believer, it is only his deeds that will be judged, and that to determine his reward in heaven.

Then you’re not reading the text. Paul stated, “7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” I suppose you could say eternal life is referring to rewards other than salvation, but you would be wrong. Continuing to ignore the plain face of Scripture.

sandusky:

But, again, the deeds of all believers will be judged to determine the reward received in heaven. The believer does not come into judgment for sin, because of his profession of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ (Jn 5:24). Forgiveness of sin has been obtained by Christ for the believer.

Continuing to read back into the text your flawed interpretations from other parts of Scripture. Despite the overwhelming textual evidence, you again retreat back to your thesis. I mean how silly is it to say, “When Paul says the people who done good deeds will have eternal life he really doesn’t mean eternal life.”

 

[Redbandito]

sandusky:

I don’t think Paul is saying anything about a believer being judged in this passage. What Paul is saying is that the unbeliever will be judged by his deeds, but with the believer, it is only his deeds that will be judged, and that to determine his reward in heaven.

Prior to Ch 2, Paul had demonstrated the sinfulness of the immoral pagan (1:18-32), and now turns to his case against the religious moralist—Jew or Gentile. Paul lists six principles concerning God’s judgment: 1) knowledge (v1); 2) truth (vv2,3); 3) guilt (vv 4,5); 4) deeds (vv 6-10); 5) impartiality (vv11-15); 6) motive (v16).

As far as deeds, in vv 6-10, scripture consistently teaches that God’s judgment is always on the basis of a man’s deeds (Is 3:10; Jer 17:10; Jn 5:28, 29; 1 Cor. 3:8; 2 Cor 5:10; Gal 6:7-9; cf Rom 14:12).

But, again, the deeds of all believers will be judged to determine the reward received in heaven. The believer does not come into judgment for sin, because of his profession of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ (Jn 5:24). Forgiveness of sin has been obtained by Christ for the believer.

Paul tells of the deeds of two distinct groups: the redeemed (vv 7-10), and the unredeemed (vv 8,9). The deeds of the redeemed are not the basis of their salvation, but the evidence of it; here is seen Paul’s agreement with James. They are not perfect and are prone to sin, but there is undeniable evidence of righteousness in their lives.

The unredeemed will be judged by their deeds, and condemned by them as well. They have not accepted the payment for the penalty of sin offered by Christ, and must pay the penalty themselves.

The unbeliever’s plea, according to Paul is, “I should be acquitted on the grounds of ignorance (2:12-13)!”

But, God says, “you have the twin witnesses of conscience and nature (cf 1:19-20). Therefore, you will be judged by these and not by the written law (2:14-16).”

Again, the believer does not come into judgment for sin (Jn 5:24), as there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8:1).

This is just ridiculous. You continue to have to go back to a verse in John to assert “the believer does not come under judgment”. Notice that in all of your other claims, that I agree with, you can stay right here in Romans. But to assert that “the believer does not come undert judgment”, you must assume your interpretation of John is correct and thus ignore the clear words of Paul. This is another clear case of reading back into the text something which is not there. And as stated before, your interpretation of John 5 is incorrect.

 

[Redbandito]

sandusky:

Actually Red, James is quoting from Gen 15:6.

I have made this claim toward your position as well—that your understanding of James puts him at odds with Paul.

I showed you a few posts up from here, on Rom 2, that Paul and James are in agreement with respect to works evidencing faith. .

No you didn’t. You showed me how you believe John and James are at odds. You couldn’t prove from Paul’s text in Romans, your position.

sandusky:

That is uncalled for. For those of us who have labored to learn Greek, it is a blessing, and for me, a hard-earned one at that.

I don’t criticize anyone for learning Greek. You are trying to turn this into something I didn’t say. I just think its interesting how you guys will claim that you take Scripture at face value, and then when presented with an extremely clear Scripture, you try to manipulate the Greek in order deny the Scripture means what it says. There is nothing wrong with being able to read the Greek text. It’s just how you use it.

 

[Redbandito]

sandusky:

I would go along with Spurgeon that Abraham had a “genuine faith,” in Ch 12. Paul also tells us in Gal 3 that, at that time, God preached the Gospel to Abraham as well. No declaration of Abraham’s righteousness is clearly given until Gen 15. That righteousness is an alien righteousness, gained by Christ and appropriated by faith, in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). The believer’s righteousness now sits at the right hand of the Father. I made a case earlier on this thread, that the believer’s justification is a “declaration” of righteousness, a forensic righteousness. I pointed this out using some O.T. examples, and N.T. examples.

Again, Rom 5:1, Pauls says, “having been justified,” an aorist, passive, participle. Completed in the past, and because it is passive, done to the subject, and not by the subject, thus, a “declaration of righteousness.”.

This is red herring. First, it ignores your whole argument that we are imputed with this alien righteousness, or grace, at the moment we have genuine faith. If not, then how are we to know, by your standard, at what point we are “justified”.

Second, your point about dikaioo (or God’s declaration of righteousness) is irrelevant. God’s word is efficacious. What God says, happens. When God said, “Let there be light, there was light”. Thus, when God says “Let Sandusky be made righteous”, the process actually happens and you become righteous. This is the transformative nature of grace. Thus, going to the Greek will do you no good here.

sandusky:

With respect to the Rev 22 passage, the points raised by you, and by Trent in Ch X, are more in line with sanctification, than justification.

In fact, in Rev 22:11, the adverb “still,” (Gk eti) could also be translated, “more,” or even “yet more.”

Here is the full passage:

Revelation 22:11
11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

Again, there is a sense of each of the actions being, “yet more.” So the righteous are yet more, more righteous, as the unrighteous are yet more unrighteous, and that behavior becomes fixed.

That being righteous is sanctification, not justification.

I have said before, that the believer can never be more justified, than at the moment he believes. However, he can, and should, become more “righteous,” through sanctification, and moving away from sin to holiness.

Again, a believer is justified only once, at the moment he believes.

Your point here BEGS THE QUESTION. In order to make this statement about sanctification and justification with the verses you have used, you must first assume what you have yet to prove. That is that there is only a one time imputation of righteousness and that is our justification, and that anything afterward refers to sanctification. Of course, you can’t prove this, because it is not supported by the Scripture, but I look forward to your efforts.

 

[Redbandito]

bene7:

Number one, because it is stated that God reckoned his faith to him as righteousness ONLY in Gen. 15:6.

The problem is that that is not the only time that God revealed that. That is the only time he revealed it explicitly in Genesis. However, God revealed it through James in chapter 2. You try to brush it aside, but it is EXPLICIT!

bene7:

The reason being is revealed in the context itself. I explained this in my previous post. Did you not understand it? You’re right, but it does establish his argumet that God justifies, by faith, both Jews and Gentiles alike, completely apart from works and solely on the basis of faith. And Paul is very clear in that God does not justify the “godly” man (which is the contention of Catholicism), but the UN-GODLY (Rom. 4:5).

Was Paul writing to the Romans from an ulterior motive - no!

Blessing,
Bene

This is a complete misrepresentation of Catholicism, and shows why we can’t have any kind of logical discussion. It is IN MY INITIAL JUSTIFICATION, THAT I BECOME “GODLY”. You are misrepresenting the Catholic position. When God declares me righteous, I become righteous. This is the simultaneous work of justification and sanctification. THAT IS the Catholic position. Thus, once I HAVE BEEN justified, my works are aided by grace. Again, these come FROM GOD! Thus, your reference to Romans 4:5 is irrelevant. I was “un-godly” before my initial justification. God makes me “Godly” through His sanctifying grace. You misunderstand the Catholic position, and thus can’t have any real credibility in arguing against it.

 

[Redbandito]

wpr:

Woops, Sandusky, Red is right! James does tell us in 2:20~21.

Do you want proof you ignoramous, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified

by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter?

"Do you answer “no”. Faith without works has use because it secures one’s salvation?

Forgive me, but can I ask a more competant brother to tell me if the “justification” James speaks of could possibly mean sanctification in the original language (Greek? Hebrew?) I think I anticipate Sandusky and Bene’s next tactic.

Red did not blow the reference to Gn 15:6 as you claimed. Sandusky, I think you totally missed his point.

Questions:
Who is right? And …When is forensic justification to be applied? Gn 15 or Gn 22?

1. James? Was Abraham justified by works when he offered his son on the alter?
2. Paul? Abraham beleived God and it was credited to him as rightiousness.

My amateur theologin’s view on this is that these vs do not confuse a Catholic mind, but they certainly do pose a huge issue for a OSAS Protestant mind? Am I wrong?

Red, please correct me if you think I missed your point in any way.

Sandusky, I’m glad you know Greek.

No, you did fine WPR. Keep up the good work. I’m leaving to Hawaii for a week, as of tom, so keep representing.

 

[Redbandito]

bene7:

Chapter 22 doesn’t say God tested Abraham’s justification. “Abraham believed God and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” It was his faith that was tested, not his justification. Notice that his faith being reckoned righteous by God (Gen. 15), and the testing of his faith (Gen. 22), both instances involve his promised son. The first in that he would be born, even miracuously, the other that he would be delivered up to sacrifice. BOTH are* types* of Christ. Together they prefigure the believer’s reckoned righteousness through faith in the Son God Himself would delivered up for sacrifice. Abraham’s prophetic words are haunting in Gen. 22:8: “God will provide for Himself the lamb…”.

Blessings,
Bene

Bene, this has already been addressed. While Gen 22 doesn’t state this, James makes it very clear: "21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" You’re just ignoring this, because you can’t respond.Furthermore, James says, "23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”. Now you can argue that he is referring to Gen 15 here, but that is completely out of context. James just got finished saying that Abraham was considered righteous for what he did in Gen 22. To all of the sudden shift back to Gen 15 without any warning would not make sense. The Catholic position can account for this. Your’s can’t.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

bene7:

Yes, in fact it’s the crux of Paul’s argument in Rom. 4. Abraham …

You dodged the question Bene. I can only presume that you don’t know the answer.

Gen 12 is when Abraham had genuine faith, even according to Protestant scholar CH Spurgeon.* You didn’t even address it!!*

If Abraham had faith in Gen 12 as the Sacred Author of Hebrews states, then he must have been justified in Gen 12.

Your version would make the Holy Spirit a liar, as St. James, also inspired by the Holy Spirit, said Abraham was justified in Gen 22.

So, we have Scriptural evidence that Gen 12, Gen 15, and Gen 22 is when Abraham was justified, and you simply ignore James and the author of Hebrews as if you know more than they do.

 

[bene7]

Redbandito:

This is just ridiculous. You continue to have to go back to a verse in John to assert “the believer does not come under judgment”. Notice that in all of your other claims, that I agree with, you can stay right here in Romans. But to assert that “the believer does not come undert judgment”, you must assume your interpretation of John is correct and thus ignore the clear words of Paul. This is another clear case of reading back into the text something which is not there. And as stated before, your interpretation of John 5 is incorrect.

Oh Red, this has been discussed before. Paul, in Romans chapters one and two is building his case that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are “under sin” (Rom. 3:9). The indictment written in 3:10-18: “There is none righteous, not even one…” - not even the attempt at Law keeping is an escape from judgment since “through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” (3:20). "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested (Christ), “even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, for there is no distinction; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; BEING JUSTIFIED AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…” Rom. 3:23-24.

To try to pull Paul’s whole argument out of context, as you’re doing, you’re actually denying the cross of Christ by which both Jews and Gentiles “under sin” are now freely justified by God’s grace through faith via the redemptive work of Christ. Which is the whole point of Paul’s letter to the Romans.

To come up with your conclusion, Red, we all must rip out every chapter in Romans except chapter one and two, but even then one would have to use a magic marker to blot out 1:1 through 1:17.

What is it you so terribly fear about being justified by God’s grace through faith alone in His Son? That God won’t recongnize your own righteousness? Does “There is none righteous, not even one,” not set right with you? You want to present to God your own righteousness? You’re out of luck, my friend, it’s not going to happen. If you’d paste Rom. chapter four back into your Bible you’d read: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies THE UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.”

Sorry, Red, God only justifies the UNGODLY, so unless you succumb to the truth of own, helpless state of unrighteousness before God, not even the cross of Christ can help you. And that would be utter foolishness.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[sandusky]

Redbandito:

Then you’re not reading the text. Paul stated, “7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” I suppose you could say eternal life is referring to rewards other than salvation, but you would be wrong. Continuing to ignore the plain face of Scripture.

Continuing to read back into the text your flawed interpretations from other parts of Scripture. Despite the overwhelming textual evidence, you again retreat back to your thesis. I mean how silly is it to say, “When Paul says the people who done good deeds will have eternal life he really doesn’t mean eternal life.”

Now you are begging the question: the Catholic position of salvation by works.

In your heart of hearts, you are saved by works.

“When Paul says the people who done good deeds will have eternal life he really doesn’t mean eternal life.”

It is as silly as you saying that when Jesus says it Jn 5:24, and when He says the believer does not come into judgment, He doesn’t mean it.

 

[bene7]

itsjustdave1988:

You dodged the question Bene. I can only presume that you don’t know the answer.

Gen 12 is when Abraham had genuine faith, even according to Protestant scholar CH Spurgeon.* You didn’t even address it!!*

If Abraham had faith in Gen 12 as the Sacred Author of Hebrews states, then he must have been justified in Gen 12.

Your version would make the Holy Spirit a liar, as St. James, also inspired by the Holy Spirit, said Abraham was justified in Gen 22.

So, we have Scriptural evidence that Gen 12, Gen 15, and Gen 22 is when Abraham was justified, and you simply ignore James and the author of Hebrews as if you know more than they do.

Dave, it is God who justifies. And He doesn’t reckon Abraham’s faith righteousness until Gen. 15:6 (and as I pointed out, it’s based on the content of that faith). NO WHERE else is it stated. Even James quotes 15:6. Your argument is not with me, and you can’t change God’s word. Faith doesn’t justify, Dave, God does. And he determines the content of the faith through which He justifies the ungodly.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[sandusky]

itsjustdave1988:

You dodged the question Bene. I can only presume that you don’t know the answer.

Gen 12 is when Abraham had genuine faith, even according to Protestant scholar CH Spurgeon.* You didn’t even address it!!*

If Abraham had faith in Gen 12 as the Sacred Author of Hebrews states, then he must have been justified in Gen 12.

Your version would make the Holy Spirit a liar, as St. James, also inspired by the Holy Spirit, said Abraham was justified in Gen 22.

So, we have Scriptural evidence that Gen 12, Gen 15, and Gen 22 is when Abraham was justified, and you simply ignore James and the author of Hebrews as if you know more than they do.

You have forgotten so soon, Dave, let me remind you:

What does James mean by his statement: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (2:24)? It has always been urged by Roman Catholic apologists (see Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapters VII, X) that James 2:14-26 is a corrective to the Protestant (not the Pauline) “heresy” that justification is through faith alone completely apart from works, for James expressly declares: “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone [ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon]” (2:24). But an exacting exegetical analysis of James’ teaching will disclose that in James’ teaching the accent falls upon the probative character of good works, whereas in the Pauline polemic the accent falls without question upon the judicially constitutive and declarative character of justification. Paul and James clearly mean something different by their use of the words “justified,” ‘faith,” and “works,” and they turn to different places in Genesis and thus to different events in Abraham’s life to support their respective applications of Gen 15:6. This much should be denied by no one.

Whereas Paul intends by “justified” and the actual act on God’s part whereby He pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly, James intends by “justified” the verdict which God declares when the actually (previously) justified man has demonstrated his actual righteous state by obedience and good works.

Whereas Paul intends by “faith” trustful repose in the merits of Christ alone for pardon and righteousness, James is addressing those whose “faith” was tending toward, if it had not already become, a cold, orthodox intellectualism in which bare assent is given to such propositions as “God is one”—which even the demons confess with seemingly greater appreciation, for they tremble—but which is devoid of any exhibition of love for the brethren.

Whereas Paul, when he repudiates “works,” intends by “works” “the works of the law,” that is, any and every work of whatever kind done for the sake of acquiring merit, James intends by “works” acts of kindness toward those in need performed as the fruit and evidence of a true and vital faith and the actual justified state. (2:14-17).

Whereas Paul is concerned with the question, how many a man achieve right standing before God, and turns to Gen 15:6 to find his answer, James is concerned with the question, how is a man to demonstrate that he has true faith and is therefore actually justified before Godd turns to Gen 22:9-10, as the probative “fulfillment” of Gen 15:6 (see Gen 22:12), to find his answer (2:21). Note his deixon, “show me”, and deixo, “I will show you in 2:18; his blepeis, “you see” in 2:22 and his horate, “you see” at the beginning of 2:24—the very verse under discussion: “You see that a man is justified by [his] works, and *not *by [his] faith alone.”

And that faith is not alone, it will be “proved” by works, but those works cannot save.

James deals with works in a purely probative manner with respect to faith.

If you deny that, then you must insist that scripture contradicts itself with respect to justification.

 

[wpr]

Chapter 22 doesn’t say God tested Abraham’s justification.

Agreed. But James tells us otherwise. (see below)

"Abraham believed

God and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." It was his faith that was tested, not his justification. Notice that his faith being reckoned righteous by God (Gen. 15), and the testing of his faith (Gen. 22), both instances involve his promised son.

Bene, so you are not trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint when Abraham recieved his rightiousness in Gn 15:6? You just maintain that his faith shows that justification had been imputed but maybe at an unknown time? That is, Gn 15:6 only proves that it was.

I think I have less of an issue with that thought. However, I still do not know how you arrive at forensic imputed rightiousness. I do not see the connection to Gn 15:6 in that case.

If Paul and James were trying to show that God had imputed forensic justification, why use Abraham as the example and why use Gn 15:6 when it actually happened earlier?

Is not Abraham a better example of faithful sanctification in your view? Yet this is totally out of context for James 2 and Romans 4 and Gal 3.

James 2: Faith without works is dead. Not, faith without works “does not sanctify”. Rather, it has no possibility of saving.

Rm 4: Abraham was justified before he was circumcised so there is no advantage to being circumcised (the greater point was there is no advantage to being a Jew or “works of the law” with a mind to obligate God.

Gal 4: Condemning the Galations retreat in faith to following the Judaizers. (similar to his more extended diatribe to the Romans)

Abraham’s prophetic words are haunting in Gen. 22:8: “God will provide for Himself the lamb…”.

Yes!

Now, back to James 2.

James 2 tells us something of Abraham’s faithfull obediance in Gn 22. He says …“was not our father Abraham justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter.”

I realize you think James is refering exclusively to sanctification. I just don’t buy it.

It just begs the question. If justified and sanctified can interchange in Scripture, who decides which is really meant by the Apostle? I think we may agree that the terms are used somewhat interchangably in Scripture. Am I wrong?

Yet you seem to decide what is meant in each case first by testing whether it fits your forensic thesis. I think that is poor practice.

The better method to use would be to examine the context and compare it to other Scripture using the same form of the word. Am I wrong?

In this case, for me, I do not need to consider which meaning James intends by comparing the Greek. Should I?

It is abundanty clear to me from the context that James is discussing salvation. “Can that faith save him”? He does not say, can that faith “sanctify him”. We may agree such faith could not sanctify, but that’s not the point James is making.

 

[Redbandito]

bene7:

Oh Red, this has been discussed before. Paul, in Romans chapters one and two is building his case that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are “under sin” (Rom. 3:9). The indictment written in 3:10-18: “There is none righteous, not even one…” - not even the attempt at Law keeping is an escape from judgment since “through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” (3:20). "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested (Christ), “even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, for there is no distinction; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; BEING JUSTIFIED AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…” Rom. 3:23-24.

To try to pull Paul’s whole argument out of context, as you’re doing, you’re actually denying the cross of Christ by which both Jews and Gentiles “under sin” are now freely justified by God’s grace through faith via the redemptive work of Christ. Which is the whole point of Paul’s letter to the Romans.

To come up with your conclusion, Red, we all must rip out every chapter in Romans except chapter one and two, but even then one would have to use a magic marker to blot out 1:1 through 1:17.

What is it you so terribly fear about being justified by God’s grace through faith alone in His Son? That God won’t recongnize your own righteousness? Does “There is none righteous, not even one,” not set right with you? You want to present to God your own righteousness? You’re out of luck, my friend, it’s not going to happen. If you’d paste Rom. chapter four back into your Bible you’d read: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies THE UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness."

Sorry, Red, God only justifies the UNGODLY, so unless you succumb to the truth of own, helpless state of unrighteousness before God, not even the cross of Christ can help you. And that would be utter foolishness.

Blessings,
Bene

Did you ignore my last post? You never address the issue Bene. You ignore all rebuttals. It’s all good. I agree, God does justify the UNGODLY. That’s never been the question. The question is what happens to the UNGODLY once they’re justified. You’re a smart guy Bene, but I think you might be too smart for you own good here.

 

[Redbandito]

sandusky:

Now you are begging the question: the Catholic position of salvation by works.

Nope. Paul clearly states it in Romans 2:7. You’re just ignoring it. You obviously don’t know what "begging the question: means.

sandusky:

In your heart of hearts, you are saved by works.

No, I am saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-10) working through love (Gal 5:6), as the Scripture teaches.

sandusky:

It is as silly as you saying that when Jesus says it Jn 5:24, and when He says the believer does not come into judgment, He doesn’t mean it.

Uhhh, no. I did say that Jesus meant that. You have a conveniently short memory. What Jesus did not say is what specifically a believer is. You read into believer, your own imputation theology. Nobody is fooled by your verbal gymnastics.

 

[Redbandito]

bene7:

Dave, it is God who justifies. And He doesn’t reckon Abraham’s faith righteousness until Gen. 15:6 (and as I pointed out, it’s based on the content of that faith). NO WHERE else is it stated. Even James quotes 15:6. Your argument is not with me, and you can’t change God’s word. Faith doesn’t justify, Dave, God does. And he determines the content of the faith through which He justifies the ungodly.

Blessings,
Bene

He quotes 15:6 and applies it to 22. What is so hard to understand about this? You are completely ignoring the clear words of Scripture.

 

[wpr]

Whereas Paul intends by “justified” and the actual act on God’s part whereby He pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly, James intends by “justified” the verdict which God declares when the actually (previously) justified man has demonstrated his actual righteous state by obedience and good works.

The already justified man must prove his justification by works? If he has not works then he has not been forensically justified? I’m spinning like a top in that circular argument. How do you avoid killing man’s free will?

Whereas Paul intends by “faith” trustful repose in the merits of Christ alone for pardon and righteousness, James is addressing those whose “faith” was tending toward, if it had not already become, a cold, orthodox intellectualism in which bare assent is given to such propositions as “God is one”—which even the demons confess with seemingly greater appreciation, for they tremble—but which is devoid of any exhibition of love for the brethren.

I don’t think the distinction is so black and white as you assert. You overreach in how you interpret the reason for the comparison to the Demons. Your straw man is now supposed “cold orthodox intellectualism”. You construct and limit Jame’s opponent, yet you have no idea who it really was. I don 't see how you can assume that.

I don’t see any difference in what Paul taught and James. Paul says of faith, hope, and love, love is the most important. So, in a way, Paul is saying faith without works is dead. James also teaches that love is required and not just cold belief.

Whereas Paul, when he repudiates “works,” intends by “works” “the works of the law,” that is, any and every work of whatever kind done for the sake of acquiring merit

Yes, correct, but without the “Whereas”. Paul does not oppose James. Paul does not oppose works done in the Spirit (love). Works done in humility without the mind to obligate God are pleasing to Him. Otherwise, how can they sanctify? They are attributed to both justification and sanctification there is no need to oppose them. (unless you’re a German Monk)

, James intends by “works” acts of kindness toward those in need performed as the fruit and evidence of a true and vital faith and the actual justified state. (2:14-17).

Not exactly. He says faith without works cannot save you. The context is salvation. He combines the two. They are inseparable. Works are not fruit separate from faith.

Whereas Paul is concerned with the question, how many a man achieve right standing before God, and turns to Gen 15:6 to find his answer

Not exactly.

In Rm 4, he is just trying to show the Jews (and maybe Jadaized Gentile Christians) that being a Jew and/or following Jewish customs has no advantage. He uses Gn 15:6 to show the Jews that Abraham was attributed rightiousness by God prior to the covenant of circumcision.

In Gal 2 Paul uses Gn 15:6 to show the Galations that it is not necessary to be a Jew to be a child of Abraham. Therefore, it is not necessary to adhere to “works of the law”. He’s concerned about them depending on works of the law (Gal 3:10).

Thanks for the good stuff though. Very interesting.