Regeneration/Born-Again

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Fiat:
Bene:
You’re looking at the wrong passage. Read Luke 7:36-50.

When I was a youth, my protestant ministers would tell us a story about Satan getting together with his demons. They tried to come up with a plan that would prevent people from turning to Christ, so they decided the best way to do this is to let mankind think they have one extra day to repent. This way, man will keep putting repentance off and eventually they’ll die and come into the arms of Satan.

It appears Satan has found another way to minimize the message of Christ: tell people the gospels were only relevant for a certain time. Well done, Bene.

In Jesus and Mary

Fiat
I don’t think my Gospel of Luke is any different than yours, so can you show me where it is recorded that the woman asked for the forgiveness of her sins? The lesson there is the actions between the self-righteous Simon who did not believe in Him, and the poor sin-burdened woman who did. He declares to Simon, and to her, that her sins are forgiven. He does not say it to Simon who already considered himself righteous. And what did He say saved her? Her tears? Look at verse 50: “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.” Unlike the self-righteous, religious Simon she turned (repented) from a life of unbelief to* one of belief * “in Him.”

Fiat, if your message to the world is that you can cry your way into Heaven, then it’s not me who’s minimizing the message of Christ, it’s you. My message is the same as Peter’s and Paul’s - the cross. Not personal penance with many tears, but the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of the Son. Now when one actually repents, turning from unbelief to belief in Christ, such faith often produces a sorrow for sins with many tears, but it’s not the tears that saved, like the woman, it is one’s faith.

2COR 7:10 “For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

Blessings,
Bene
 
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bene7:
I don’t think my Gospel of Luke is any different than yours, so can you show me where it is recorded that the woman asked for the forgiveness of her sins? The lesson there is the actions between the self-righteous Simon who did not believe in Him, and the poor sin-burdened woman who did. He declares to Simon, and to her, that her sins are forgiven. He does not say it to Simon who already considered himself righteous. And what did He say saved her? Her tears? Look at verse 50: “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.” Unlike the self-righteous, religious Simon she turned (repented) from a life of unbelief to* one of belief *“in Him.”

Fiat, if your message to the world is that you can cry your way into Heaven, then it’s not me who’s minimizing the message of Christ, it’s you. My message is the same as Peter’s and Paul’s - the cross. Not personal penance with many tears, but the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of the Son. Now when one actually repents, turning from unbelief to belief in Christ, such faith often produces a sorrow for sins with many tears, but it’s not the tears that saved, like the woman, it is one’s faith.

2COR 7:10 “For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

Blessings,
Bene
Bene:

If you will review the thread, you asked what “belief” means. My purpose in directing you to this passage in Luke is to show you that this is the model of belief that Jesus Christ Himself holds up to us. In this model of belief, there is only Faith expressed in Action. Belief is not some mental opinion one forms for oneself. Faith is not the result of logical conclusion. Faith is an action that works in love, as exemplified by the woman herself. Jesus says “her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much.” And, the faith that she had is expressed in NO OTHER WAY than by her ACTIONS. This is what belief is, to answer your question.

Now, if you are more satisfied with a cold and etherized version of faith that the well groomed sons and daughters of Luther and Calvin have draped themselves with as they set sail on their cruiseship of self-righteousness, then go for it buddy. But it is a faith that is tied up in reason and the work of man, not of grace. I, on the other hand, will spend my time in Jesus’s Church, the Bark of Peter that saves sinners, loving Jesus with my fellow brothers and sisters like the sinning woman in Luke.

In Jesus and Mary, whose soul magnifies my Lord
Fiat
 
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Fiat:
My purpose in directing you to this passage in Luke is to show you that this is the model of belief that Jesus Christ Himself holds up to us. In this model of belief, there is only Faith expressed in Action. Belief is not some mental opinion one forms for oneself. Faith is not the result of logical conclusion. Faith is an action that works in love, as exemplified by the woman herself. Jesus says “her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much.” And, the faith that she had is expressed in NO OTHER WAY than by her ACTIONS.
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wpr:
Bene,

You evade.

My point stands. You and Sandusky do not believe the Lord’s Prayer should be prayed in these times. Why? So you can avoid “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.” Far too Catholic I guess.

Therefore, I rightfully conclude you are willing to toss a part of a written God-breathed Gospel as inappropriate. How shall I ever know what other Scripture you may relegate to no meaning? You cannot be trusted to speak clearly. Paul warns us of such as you.

You already told me 1 John 5:16~17 whispers while other verses shout. On what basis do you claim to know which verrses are to be tossed, which shout, and which whisper? By your own rules I expect a biblical reply. I care not for your opinion.
It’s called “rightly dividing the Word of truth.” All Scripture is written for us, but not all Scripture is written to us (i.e., necessarily applies directly to us). Wpr, do you apply Lev. 16 to yourself? Or for that matter the whole Book of Leviticus? Do you observe the Day of Atonement by sacrificing in Jerusalem? If not, why not? And if not, does it mean the Book of Leviticus is less “authoritative?”

Compare "forgive us our sins as we have forgiven others, with the words of Paul stated AFTER the cross:

EPH 4:32-5:2 *"… be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.*

Do you disagree with Paul that God “has” forgiven you of your sins through the sacrifice of His own Son? Do you believe that even the sin of slandering another God has forgiven through the cross of His Son?

Blessings,
Bene
 
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bene7:
Do you disagree with Paul that God “has” forgiven you of your sins through the sacrifice of His own Son?
Mark 11:26 “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
 
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bene7:
It’s called “rightly dividing the Word of truth.” All Scripture is written for us, but not all Scripture is written to us (i.e., necessarily applies directly to us). Wpr, do you apply Lev. 16 to yourself? Or for that matter the whole Book of Leviticus? Do you observe the Day of Atonement by sacrificing in Jerusalem? If not, why not? And if not, does it mean the Book of Leviticus is less “authoritative?”

Blessings,
Bene
Dear Bene:
If you wish to subvert, minimize, censor or even extinguish Christ’s ministry before the cross to the message of St. Paul after the cross, then that is your business. However, you should be aware that St. Paul very clearly tells us that like him, we are to be imitators of Christ. For me, this pretty much makes the entire life of Jesus Christ relevant to us as Christians.

Fiat
 
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Kendy:
Can you please clarify what you meant because that was also what I gathered from your post about the Lord’s prayer. If you don’t believe that, please explain what you meant.
See my post to Wpr #421. But you have not yet answered my question from post #394:

"But let me ask you Kendy, when you read:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43).

I asked: “What is that saying to you?”

That was said by Peter. I might also add the words of Paul:

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So Kendy, what, to you, are both Peter and Paul stating in the above verses?

Blessings,
Bene
 
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Fiat:
Now, if you are more satisfied with a cold and etherized version of faith that the well groomed sons and daughters of Luther and Calvin have draped themselves with as they set sail on their cruiseship of self-righteousness, then go for it buddy. But it is a faith that is tied up in reason and the work of man, not of grace. I, on the other hand, will spend my time in Jesus’s Church, the Bark of Peter that saves sinners, loving Jesus with my fellow brothers and sisters like the sinning woman in Luke.
Ah, so you disagree even with Christ when He said to the weeping woman that her sins have been forgiven, and this on the basis of faith. It seems then you are like Simon the Pharisee, believing that abiding in the traditions of your religion will actually save you. Simon took Christ’s words to the woman quite offensively, as you do mine.

I do agree with you, though, that the true faith is tied up in reason, but I do not agree with you that reasonable faith is based on the work of man, but instead the finished work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous (the cross). The cross is very reasonable, “the Just died for the unjust.” God does not present to mankind an unreasonable message of salvation. But one must lay aside all vestiges of self-righteousness, knowing that He can present nothing to God on his own behalf. He must come to the cross completely empty-handed, having the attitude of Paul, considering that all that he had once viewed, religiously, as worthy to be nothing but rubbish, in order that he may gain Christ instead, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of his own, derived even from the holy Law (commandments) of which he was born under, “but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:1-9).

He calls the true believers in Philippi those who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus, putting no confidence in the flesh. But rest in what God has done for them through the Son.

Now let’s get back to that woman, Fiat. Did Jesus say her, “Your sins will be forgiven,” or “Your sins have been forgiven?” And did He say to her, “Now go and do penance,” or did He say, based on He declaring to her (and to Simon and his religious cronies) that her sins “have been forgiven” to now “go in peace?” A peace based on the FACT that He’d declared her sins forgiven.

Compare this now to the message of Paul, who took the gospel message (good-news message) of Jesus Christ to the whole Gentile world

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

Fiat, Simon the self-righteous Pharisee grumbled at the words of Christ spoken to the woman who left in peace knowing that He had declared her sins forgiven (based on her faith alone). The former is the disgruntled response of the religious to the words of Christ, the latter of the “faith-full” (full of faith). Yes, the woman is a model of repentance, turning from unbelieving to believing, and that sins are declared forgiven through the Son, in whom the forgiven have set their faith.

Blessing,
Bene
 
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Fiat:
Dear Bene:
If you wish to subvert, minimize, censor or even extinguish Christ’s ministry before the cross to the message of St. Paul after the cross, then that is your business. However, you should be aware that St. Paul very clearly tells us that like him, we are to be imitators of Christ. For me, this pretty much makes the entire life of Jesus Christ relevant to us as Christians.
What does being “imitators of Christ” have to do with the basis on which sins are forgiven? Where does Paul say to imitate Christ and your sins will be forgiven?

Blessings,
Bene
 
Mickey said:
Mark 11:26 “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

So then, if I commit adultery my sin of adultery is forgiven by God as long as I, in my own life, forgive others. Is that what you’re stating? Even still, that verse does not say I have to “ask” forgiveness, but only that God forgives me on the basis that I forgive others. This even circumvents your own sacrament of reconciliation. Hummm, can God remain holy and righteous on this basis? I don’t think so. I think you need to give further thought to this, Mickey.

Blessings,
Bene
 
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bene7:
See my post to Wpr #421. But you have not yet answered my question from post #394:

"But let me ask you Kendy, when you read:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43).

I asked: “What is that saying to you?”

That was said by Peter. I might also add the words of Paul:

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So Kendy, what, to you, are both Peter and Paul stating in the above verses?

Blessings,
Bene
Sorry, I didn’t respond before…having trouble keeping up :).

Ok, I think what is means to believe/receive must be considered in light of other scripture. I don’t have a bible handy so I can’t give you passages right now. But there are many instances in scripture where it is clear that what we do matter. Works is at least evidence of faith.

For example, Jesus says those who love me will keep my commandments. So, if you are not keeping His commandments then you don’t love Him.

Jesus said if you don’t feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc, then he will say to you on the day of judgement, “I never knew you.” So, if you confessed with your heart but believe in your heart, but you don’t anything about you are probably worse off than if you had not confessed anything.

Paul tells us that liars, fornicators, blasphemers, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Are these not deeds?

James tells us that faith without works is dead. So, it seems like you can’t have one without the other.

Now, you have pointed to many passages that refer to belief and without these other passages one might conclude that belief is nothing more than an intellectual assent, but there are other parts of scripture that tells us what a believer should act like.

Let’s take Abraham. He believed God and because of his belief, he was deemed righteous. But how do we know he believed? We know that because when God asked him to sacrifice his son, He submitted to God’s will. Had he said, “no” to God then we would know that he does not believe God through his action. It is not wise to try to separate the two.

Kendy
 
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bene7:
So then, if I commit adultery my sin of adultery is forgiven by God as long as I, in my own life, forgive others. Is that what you’re stating? Even still, that verse does not say I have to “ask” forgiveness, but only that God forgives me on the basis that I forgive others. This even circumvents your own sacrament of reconciliation. Hummm, can God remain holy and righteous on this basis? I don’t think so. I think you need to give further thought to this, Mickey.
My oh my. You are so confused bene. Perhaps you should pray about this.

**James **5:16 Confess [your] trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

BTW, it is not my sacrament of reconciliation. It was established by our Lord. Pray about this my friend.
 
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Kendy:
Now, you have pointed to many passages that refer to belief and without these other passages one might conclude that belief is nothing more than an intellectual assent, but there are other parts of scripture that tells us what a believer should act like.
Yes Kendy. The demons believe, but are not saved - Jas 2:19
 
Hello Bene and Sandusky,

1 John 2: 1~6 My children, I am writing this to you that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the rightious one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but those of the whole world. 3 The way we may be sure that we know Him is to keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know Him”, but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truely perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with Him; 6 whoever claims to abide in Him ought to live just as he lived.

(aside for one sec. Check out 1 John 2:10 "Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.)

How shall we “keep His commandments” and “live as he lived”?

I’ll use the Gospels even though you think they do not apply.

Mt 5:16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly father.

Mt 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the alter, a nd there recall that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there at the alter , go first, and be reconciled with your brother and then come and offer your gift.

Mt 6:1 But take care not to perform rightious deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

Mt 6:9~15 “This is how you are to pray…[Lord’s Prayer]…14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly father will forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

The Lord’s Prayer was addressed to the crowds. Jesus was teaching them all how to pray. He does not come down from the mountain until the end of Chp 7.

Mt 10:8 Whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Mt 13: 36~37 I tell you on the day of judgement people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be aquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Mt 16: 27 For the son of man will come with his angels in his Fathers glory and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Mt 18: 21~35 (Parable of the unforgiving servant) The punch line…"34 The in anger his master turned him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. 35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of forgives his brother from his heart.

1 Timothy 6:3~4 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching 4 is conceited, understanding nothing.

Of whom is Paul speaking in the last verse?
 
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sandusky:
I agree with you. I am saying that baptismal regeneration is the Catholic view. The Catholic believes that rebirth comes through the act of baptism. Scripture does not say that. Scripture says that regeneration comes through the washing of regeneration by the H.S. That is not baptism, but a washing by the Spirit.

In Jn 3:5, Jesus referred not to literal water, but to the need for “cleansing” (e.g., Eze 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the O.T., it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "spirit: (Nu 19:17-19; Ps 51:9, 10; Is 32:15; 44:3-5; 55:1-3; Jer 2:13; Joel 2:28-29). Thus, Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the H.S. through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (cf Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5), required for belonging to His kingdom. That is not literal water washing.
This is illustrated very clearly in Acts 18:24 through 19:6. Baptism is a necessary act that WE do (by His leading) to show we choose the Lord by our own free will, but the Spirit of Regeneration comes as He wills. Baptising a child is simply a pacifier for the parents. Until one consents to the Faith by God’s grace everything else is compulsion and law. It is a spiritual event and as such is impossible for the recipient to not have consent. Thanks, Al
 
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bene7:
Repent means to change one’s mind. They should repent (change their minds, based on the gospel message of Christ being preached to them), turn to God (and only when they turn to God, i.e., are saved) can they then do works befitting of their changed, regenerated, minds.

Repentance has to do with one turning from unbelieving to believing, not how one’s sins are forgiven. Like Sandusky already pointed out, “penance” (in respect to the forgiveness of sins) is not a Biblical concept. Such a concept circumvents the cross.

Blessings,
Bene
You are correct in one sense. Indeed penance is not equal payment in retribution to sin committed and in no way does penance attain forgiveness. I should think that was abundantly clear from our discussion of Confession. I objected to Sandusky’s leap from contrition to “acts of contrition” for this reason. Such belief that sins are forgiven as recompence to penance is not Catholic.

CCC1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance. (Mt 6:1~6, 16~18, Joel 2:12~13, Is 1:16~17)

However, that penance is not biblical is not the case. As posted by Mickey…
Acts 26:20 "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
From the Catholic perspective on penance, we look to the words teaching of St Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians (AD 80 approx)

CCC 1432 “…Let us fix our eyes on Christ’s blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for poured out for our salvation, it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.”

You see Sandusky and Bene, in the Catholic faith we never cease to take our eyes from the cross. We do not cheapen Christs perfect work by taking it without responsibility lest, as St Paul teaches us, " we hold his priceless kindness and forebearance in low esteem." Yet we in no way ever assume to earn such grace.

No, to the contrary, we look to the cross, we repent of sins in confession and honour and glorify the cross through our humble penance knowing always that only by his grace can we please Him.

Contrary, to your belief, we beleive we honour God and our salvation through Jesus Christ by our sincere penance. To assume we have no ability to please him even by His grace cheapens his creation. We that were made in his image need take what is given to us, namely, our free will, and use it to His glory forever. Amen
 
Originally Posted by Philthy
All wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly
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sandusky:
The wages of sin is death; all sin is deadly.
1John 5:17 “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly

You may begin your spin now. 😉

Phil
 
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bene7:
Actually Christ explains Himself in John 3:5-6. “That which is born of flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” You who are born of the flesh must also be born of the Spirit: “born again.” None of it has anything to do with ritual, water baptism.

Blessings,
Bene
Nice try, but this hardly settles the matter. Are you saying that Christ specifically mentions that you must be born of the flesh?? All people are born of the flesh - its a given. He is simply emphasizing that being born of the flesh is of no avail. You are assuming that “born of water” means born of the flesh? Please give me ONE biblical reference to the physical birth of a human described as born of water. I havent heard one yet. Just people who cram there theology into everything at all costs.

John 3:5 Born of water… and the Spirit

Titus 3:5 Bath of rebirth…renewal by the holy Spirit

Does the “bath of rebirth” which echoes the John 3:5 verse also refer to physical birth? Hmmmmm? I think not.

Phil
 
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bene7:
Compare "forgive us our sins as we have forgiven others, with the words of Paul stated AFTER the cross:
EPH 4:32-5:2 "… be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Bene, this does not say that every sin for all time has been forgiven at this point in time. In addition, if Paul meant to imply that we should forgive each other permanently for all future sins that anyone commits against us, why didn’t he simply say that? Jesus specifically mentions that we should forgive “seventy times seven” times. Why didn’t he say that we should forgive once and for all? It doesnt add up.
*
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bene7:
Do you disagree with Paul that God “has” forgiven you of your sins through the sacrifice of His own Son?
*
No - I disagree with you. 🙂
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bene7:
Blessings,
Bene
Peace,

Phil
 
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bene7:
What does being “imitators of Christ” have to do with the basis on which sins are forgiven? Where does Paul say to imitate Christ and your sins will be forgiven?

Blessings,
Bene
Bene,

Fiat made no such claim. Let me clarify waht you really mean.

Your objection is that seeking to imitate Christ in one’s life having anything to do with salvation smacks your forensic imputation theology in the face.

Yet, Jesus Christ spent his time here on earth calling us to a higher order. Teaching radically how one is to think and treat his fellow man and setting right our relationship with the Father.

When one holds His priceless kindness and forebearance in low esteem your question cannot be met with an answer. You speak of believers in the past tense only as if this is a foregone conclusion and need not be lived by pursuit of Christ Jesus. This is not the case, so you forfeit any capacity to understand by making yourself blind. 1 TIM 1:18~19.

Your argument does not meet with the Catholic view of free will. Gn: 3:13 God ask’s Eve, What is this that you have done". Christ asks you the same, yet you are blind.

If you insist on salvation as an irrevocable imputation, imitating Christ of your free will is necessarily removed from any possibility. Unfortunatley, you are left with the faith of a demon who keeps telling you to look to the cross for yourself and not worry about doing anything to help your fellow man.

Do you ignore the whisper of John “Whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truely perfected in him.”

Do you nignore the shout of St Paul " if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Jesus Christ is calling you from Mt 22: 37 by telling us the greatest commandment…" You shall love the Lord. your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second is like it; You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

If Christ were here and he witnessed you staring at the cross in wonderment of His awesome gift of your personal salvation, while you let one of His children pass you by unclothed and naked, he would say to you “I do not know you”.

Faith alone? I think not.
 
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