Regeneration/Born-Again

[Philthy]

bene7:

So then, if I commit adultery my sin of adultery is forgiven by God as long as I, in my own life, forgive others. Is that what you’re stating?
Blessings,
Bene

More of your weak logical skills. Another incorrect conclusion invalidly put forth by you. No problem, Philthy to the rescue.
Here is the conditional:

IF you do NOT forgive others THEN you will not be forgiven.

I don’t think it could be stated any simpler.
That does not imply that as long as you DO forgive others then all your sins are forgiven - which is what you put forth. That is a different statement, and does not necessarily follow from the given conditional.
And dont think I dont know where your trying to go with this either…

Phil

 

[Philthy]

wpr:

Contrary, to your belief, we beleive we honour God and our salvation through Jesus Christ by our sincere penance. To assume we have no ability to please him even by His grace cheapens his creation. We that were made in his image need take what is given to us, namely, our free will, and use it to His glory forever. Amen

Of course you are correct. Even Paul says on THIS SIDE OF THE CROSS:
Romans 12:1
I urge you therefore, Brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God.

---

Paul states explicitly that there is additional offering that is pleasing to God, and we are capable of it. He even tells us to make up for “what is lacking” in Christs sacrifice. Can you imagine if those words ever came from a Pope? We would never have heard the end of it…but as it stands its the Apostle Paul!

Phil

 

[bene7]

Fiat:

Dear Bene:
If you wish to subvert, minimize, censor or even extinguish Christ’s ministry before the cross to the message of St. Paul after the cross, then that is your business. However, you should be aware that St. Paul very clearly tells us that like him, we are to be imitators of Christ. For me, this pretty much makes the entire life of Jesus Christ relevant to us as Christians.

Dear Fiat:
The cross is a pivotal event in God’s progressive program for the redemption of man, national Israel, the Gentile nations, as well as this earth itself. Prior to the cross all Israel, as a rule of life, was “under law” but after the cross, no man is called to be “under law,” but “under grace.” Prior to the cross a sacrificial system was precisely observed to approach an infinitely holy God, after the cross ALL men may approach Him, by faith, through the “Door” He provided - His own Son and the final, substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Him for the forgiveness of ALL sins. Prior to the cross Israel was to abide in a Covenant consisting of definite commandments along with civil and religious ordinances. After the cross all believers are called to abide in Christ alone. Prior to the cross the Gentiles were considered “separate from Christ” and “having no hope and without God in the world,” but now through the cross are brought near by His blood.

Paul presented to the Galatians the spiritual application of the cross to himself, and the life he now lives based on it. Very different from that which was his life under the Law prior to the cross:

GAL 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live (i.e., this side of the cross) in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”

Fiat, if the cross has not been a pivotal point in your life like it was for Paul (and mine), then it could be possible that you have not yet come to the cross. I’m just saying it’s possible.

Have you ever read John Bunyan’s book, “Pilgrims’ Progress?” The cross is only the beginning of a faith walk for the true believer. But still his walk by faith is ALWAYS in sight of the cross, knowing and rejoicing, daily, that what was laid there on the Substitute can never be laid back on the sinner (now “saint”).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[all4one]

Mark 11:26 “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

This is to say: To forgive is to exhibit a quality of being in Christ. If I am in Christ by faith I will do all i can to forgive any trespass against me but should I fail to forgive it means that that offense is binding me to a place outside of Christ . If I am forgiven because I forgave it is because I am In Christ and God is my Father. My sins are forgiven to the degree that I step out of me and into Christ. If I have not given up MY life to follow Him then my sins remain because “I” remain. It’s like stepping into the sun from the shade. I’m warm to the degree I step into the sun. It is by faith that I step. ‘Faith’ meaning who I truly love and live for. In Christ forgiveness is toward those who offend and from the Father toward me. It is one living act.
If you are feeling threatened about your faith it is because your faith is outside of you in a system of doing it right (or not). This is not what the bible means by grace but what is meant by law.
If there is the possibility of being condemned or accused or wrong then you are still in the shade. This is the flesh and is at opposition to a spiritual view. The spiritual view is that no one no where no how can tell me that in this present moment I am not safely in the merciful gaze of my Father because of the blood of Jesus. If I truly value this (who wouldn’t?) then chances are good for me in the next moment and hopefully I can say the same thing then. The Spirit is not mechanical and is not led by man. It is the other way around. To forgive is a result of being forgiven and it is also the cause of being forgiven. The mind of the flesh hates this kind of talk. Thanks, Al

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

More of your weak logical skills. Another incorrect conclusion invalidly put forth by you. No problem, Philthy to the rescue.
Here is the conditional:

IF you do NOT forgive others THEN you will not be forgiven.

I don’t think it could be stated any simpler.
That does not imply that as long as you DO forgive others then all your sins are forgiven - which is what you put forth. That is a different statement, and does not necessarily follow from the given conditional.
And dont think I dont know where your trying to go with this either…

Phil

Problem is Philthy, the argument is in the context of how Christians are forgiven of their sins. Must we ask God to be forgiven, or ARE we declared forgiven via the sacrifice of His Son? So far not one Catholic on this thread believes we’re declared forgiven by God through the cross. In fact, they vehemently fight/argue against it, even though both Paul and Peter proclaim it so. So, you’re just another one added to the count. What can I say?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[wpr]

Again, if you want to pray it, [Lord’s Prayer]

Again, does it apply in your view or not. I want to know what you think. I am not interested in being patronized.

The reason I limited it to the N.T. epistles is because those address the church (I clearly stated “believers”), the Gospels do not. The Church does not start until Pentecost, 50 days after the resurrection. The Gospel would, of necessity, be excluded. You can use Acts if you’d like, there again the formula is repent and believe.

The Apostle Paul disagrees. 1 Tim 6:3~4. 2 Tim 3:16.

In the Greek it is more of a “mold,” the idea being that God reshapes the new believer into a mold by the apostle’s teachings (cf Rom 12:2; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 2:1; 1 Pet 2:2).

I don’t mind the word mold. I accept your advice in good faith.

Rm 12:2 is not compelling as a reply to my question. (sorry) I’m looking for a pattern (or mold) of teaching of teaching as specified by Paul.

2 Tim 1:13: Take as your norm the sound words you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

This makes my point even greater. Paul speaks of the “words you have heard from me”. He does not tell Timothy, “conform only to my letters.” Your advice to me is all teaching is found in the epistles. Paul does not confirm your opinion to Timothy.

Titus 2:1 Good advice, but no reference to the pattern (or mold) they have been taught.

1 Peter 2:2 I do not see the relevance to longing for spiritual milk. Are you testing me to see if I look up the verse? (good for you, I like it)

I do not know if that is true or not. It does seem that you believe it to be true.

I do not think you know the precisely the answer to Rm 6:17. Only Paul, whomever taught the Romans, and the Roman Christians can reply specifically. Yet, are all three entities quiet? Not really, the Roman Christians have much to say. While we cannot take it as Canonical, we can and should consider what they say.

We do have sound evidense of how the early Roman Christians interpreted what was taught by Paul and Peter and the Apostles.

Generally, we know from the epistles, some teaching was not recorded. We know from historic writings better how some teaching was understood.

I do not think Paul is sloppy (or rather the HS). I just know the H.S. is NOT restricted to the written word. (I know you don’t agree, it’s just food for thought)

**I showed you all teaching refferenced in the Epistles is NOT contained in the Epistles as a matter of fact, as witnessed by the, ah um, Epistles. **

 

[bene7]

wpr:

Bene,

Fiat made no such claim. Let me clarify waht you really mean.

Your objection is that seeking to imitate Christ in one’s life having anything to do with salvation smacks your forensic imputation theology in the face.

I never said that seeking to imitate Christ has nothing to do with “salvation.” It has everything to do with it. But seeking to imitate Christ is only for those who ARE saved, not for those who are seeking to “get saved”. It is not by the life of Christ (His earthly life) that anyone is saved, it’s by His death. He didn’t come to live the life that all of us should live (none of us can), He came to die the death that none of us could die (the Just for the unjust)- so that all who believe in Him might LIVE (eternally).

What do you think Paul meant by:

GAL 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”

Faith alone? I think not.

Faith alone, I think so. Even after one has been saved. “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Kendy:

Sorry, I didn’t respond before…having trouble keeping up .

Ok, I think what is means to believe/receive must be considered in light of other scripture. I don’t have a bible handy so I can’t give you passages right now. But there are many instances in scripture where it is clear that what we do matter. Works is at least evidence of faith.

Actually, Kendy, I asked what those verses are saying to you.

“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43).

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So, I’ll ask you again.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[wpr]

"Faith alone, I think so. Even after one has been saved. “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Blessings,
Bene

And… if you do not live by faith, he says, “I do not know you” and John reminds us, if we do not do as he commanded, we do not know Him. A one time irrevocable imputation can be derived from this? No way!

GAL 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”

“Llive by faith”. By all means. Amen! This is Catholic.

 

[bene7]

wpr:

And… if you do not live by faith, he says, “I do not know you” and John reminds us, if we do not do as he commanded, we do not know Him. A one time irrevocable imputation can be derived from this? No way!

It in no way precludes a sovereign declaration of justification to those who are His, those who have put their faith “in Him.”

“Llive by faith”. By all means. Amen! This is Catholic.

Is it faith to “ask” for forgiveness of sins when He has already proclaimed forgiveness through the blood sacrifice of His own Son? Is it faith to seek to be reconciled to God through men, when He has already reconciled you to Himself through the death of His Son? In Gen. 15:6 Abraham finally believed “in” the Lord, and upon that faith God reckoned it to him as righteousness. Paul agrees with the same kind of faith in Rom. 4:5, “…but believes “in Him” who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness.”

In both cases it’s not just faith, but faith “in Him.” It’s faith “in Him” who says He HAS forgiven your sins through the shed blood of His Son. Faith “in Him” who says He HAS reconciled you to Himself through the death of His Son. Faith “in Him” is trust in what He says He has done. Still seeking to BE forgiven is not true faith. Still seeking to BE reconciled is not true faith. Praying for Him (or her, Mary) to BE “merciful” is not faith if He has already exercised and demonstrated His infinite mercy toward you in Christ. True faith thanks Him for having forgiven us ALL our sins, having reconciled us to Himself, and have been merciful toward us in His Son.

MAT 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

Yet one would think that by all those good works they were doing the will of His Father. These would be canonized saints in the eyes of Rome. But yet, Christ says, “I never knew you.” Why? Because Jesus says in John 6:29, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Believing “of Him,” and believing “in Him” are two completely different faiths. One forever saves, the other cannot. One forever justifies, the other does not.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Kendy:

Lastly, it doesn’t seem like much ground is being covered in this dialogue. Lots of talking, but no one is budging. I really wanted to talk about justification and sanctification, which I think are different things, but I am willing to talk about that, but nobody cared . (j/k).

Kendy

You weren’t that willing to talk about it, Kendy, I gave you a fairly long post on the three classes of sanctification found in Scripture. Your only reply was, “Thanks, Bene.” No comment, whatsoever, on the content.

Are you “converting” or “reverting” to Catholicism?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Kendy]

bene7:

Actually, Kendy, I asked what those verses are saying to you.

“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43).

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So, I’ll ask you again.

Blessings,
Bene

Oh Bene,

Not going to fall into the trap you are setting . I will say the exact thing I said before, which is that what it means to believe and receive must be understood in light of all of scripture. If these were the only two verses in the bible, then you would be in a much better position, but they are not. So, given what the rest of scripture says, we know that to belief is to obey, to receive is to submit to His lordship.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

bene7:

MAT 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

Yet one would think that by all those good works they were doing the will of His Father. These would be canonized saints in the eyes of Rome. But yet, Christ says, “I never knew you.” Why? Because Jesus says in John 6:29, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Believing “of Him,” and believing “in Him” are two completely different faiths. One forever saves, the other cannot. One forever justifies, the other does not.

Blessings,
Bene

Bene,

BTW, which denomination do you belong to? I am scratching my head trying to figure out how you think this proves your point .

Notice that Matt 7:17-20 (right before the passage you cited) tells us that a good tree bears good fruit, and that by their fruits you will know them. Are you telling us that this has nothing to with deeds. Is this good fruit sitting on your couch and saying, “I believe in Him?”

You have spent a lot of time telling us what believer does not do. You have told us that he not ask for forgiveness, that she does not pray to Mary, that he does not do the works of the law. Can you please tell us what a believer? Does a believer attend worship services? Does a believer give to the poor? Does a believer abstain from sexual immorality? Does a believer walk through the narrow gate? Does a beliver obey Him, which includes keeping His commandments?

Kendy

 

[Fiat]

bene7:

Ah, so you disagree even with Christ when He said to the weeping woman that her sins have been forgiven, and this on the basis of faith. It seems then you are like Simon the Pharisee, believing that abiding in the traditions of your religion will actually save you. Simon took Christ’s words to the woman quite offensively, as you do mine.

I do agree with you, though, that the true faith is tied up in reason, but I do not agree with you that reasonable faith is based on the work of man, but instead the finished work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous (the cross). The cross is very reasonable, “the Just died for the unjust.” God does not present to mankind an unreasonable message of salvation. But one must lay aside all vestiges of self-righteousness, knowing that He can present nothing to God on his own behalf. He must come to the cross completely empty-handed, having the attitude of Paul, considering that all that he had once viewed, religiously, as worthy to be nothing but rubbish, in order that he may gain Christ instead, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of his own, derived even from the holy Law (commandments) of which he was born under, “but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:1-9).

He calls the true believers in Philippi those who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus, putting no confidence in the flesh. But rest in what God has done for them through the Son.

Now let’s get back to that woman, Fiat. Did Jesus say her, “Your sins will be forgiven,” or “Your sins have been forgiven?” And did He say to her, “Now go and do penance,” or did He say, based on He declaring to her (and to Simon and his religious cronies) that her sins “have been forgiven” to now “go in peace?” A peace based on the FACT that He’d declared her sins forgiven.

Compare this now to the message of Paul, who took the gospel message (good-news message) of Jesus Christ to the whole Gentile world

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

Fiat, Simon the self-righteous Pharisee grumbled at the words of Christ spoken to the woman who left in peace knowing that He had declared her sins forgiven (based on her faith alone). The former is the disgruntled response of the religious to the words of Christ, the latter of the “faith-full” (full of faith). Yes, the woman is a model of repentance, turning from unbelieving to believing, and that sins are declared forgiven through the Son, in whom the forgiven have set their faith.

Blessing,
Bene

Dear Bene:
Either you have misread my post, or you have purposefully twisted my conclusions to support your own agenda. Nowhere did I deny that the sinning woman was saved by anything but faith. Jesus tells us that very clearly, just as clearly as he says that her sins have been forgiven because she loves much.

Again, you asked what belief means. Christ clearly gives us the example of belief by showing us that it is not simply a chemical process of our brain, but it is an action we express with our life.

Secondly, I never did say that true faith is tied up with reason, but you did. I don’t believe that at all, and I am sorry that you do, as it turns faith into a work of man: i.e., the smarter I am, the better faith I have. The more educated I am, the better my faith is.

Finally, of course Jesus proclaims our sins forgiven. And, He did this most joyfully when He took His throne on the cross. I go there at every Holy Mass. Do you go to the cross at all?

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[Fiat]

Kendy:

Bene,

BTW, which denomination do you belong to? I am scratching my head trying to figure out how you think this proves your point .

Notice that Matt 7:17-20 (right before the passage you cited) tells us that a good tree bears good fruit, and that by their fruits you will know them. Are you telling us that this has nothing to with deeds. Is this good fruit sitting on your couch and saying, “I believe in Him?”

You have spent a lot of time telling us what believer does not do. You have told us that he not ask for forgiveness, that she does not pray to Mary, that he does not do the works of the law. Can you please tell us what a believer? Does a believer attend worship services? Does a believer give to the poor? Does a believer abstain from sexual immorality? Does a believer walk through the narrow gate? Does a beliver obey Him, which includes keeping His commandments?

Kendy

Great job, Kendy!!!:clapping:

 

[Kendy]

bene7:

You weren’t that willing to talk about it, Kendy, I gave you a fairly long post on the three classes of sanctification found in Scripture. Your only reply was, “Thanks, Bene.” No comment, whatsoever, on the content.

Are you “converting” or “reverting” to Catholicism?

Blessings,
Bene

Oh, I am mostly kidding about that sanctification comment. I am realize that I am going to have to do my own digging since you and CaRose gave me conflicting messages .

Yes, I am reverting to catholicism. There are a lot of reasons for making this decision, but if I could just restrict my reasons to this discussion. With all do respect, you and Sandusky have really shown how being committed to a particular view of scripture can lead one to ignore what scripture actually says. I have been silent during most of this discussion, but you have left me askance by how often you have dodged the most obvious interpretation so that you can insist on your interpretation. And I have to admit that I have done too. A few weeks ago, when I was arguing with Redbandito and some other folks about Justification and eternal security, I found myself not quoting passages, which I thought would undermind, my point, and that was really scary! My behavior was contrary to what I professed, which that I will accept what scripture says, even if it means going back to Rome, which by the way I was not happy about. But truth is truth, and when I lose an argument, I try to graciously accept defeat. More importantly, once I accepted that I was wrong, I was amazed by how many more scripture passages made sense.

Bene, I don’t think your intentions are nefarious, but you are so afraid of being wrong that you are ignoring many parts of scripture and simply not engaging with some of the points that others have raised. For example, you did not respond to Plithy post about 1 john, which shows that the concept of a mortal sin is biblical. Why have you not responded this post? Is it because it disproves your point? So what? I will admit that I did not think think it was biblical either. It’s amazing that I had just not noticed this passage either since I just read it a few months ago, which shows how easy it is to miss parts of the bible that are not part of your theology.

Bene, you have spent a lot of time telling us about God’s will. Well, we know from scripture that one of God’s desires is that we be humble. One of the ways that we can all be humble is by considering the possibility that we might be wrong. That our ability to interpret scripture is not perfect. There’s no shame in having been mistaken, but there is shame in being stubborn.

With Love,
Kendy

 

[Fiat]

bene7:

Dear Fiat:
The cross is a pivotal event in God’s progressive program for the redemption of man, national Israel, the Gentile nations, as well as this earth itself. Prior to the cross all Israel, as a rule of life, was “under law” but after the cross, no man is called to be “under law,” but “under grace.” Prior to the cross a sacrificial system was precisely observed to approach an infinitely holy God, after the cross ALL men may approach Him, by faith, through the “Door” He provided - His own Son and the final, substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Him for the forgiveness of ALL sins. Prior to the cross Israel was to abide in a Covenant consisting of definite commandments along with civil and religious ordinances. After the cross all believers are called to abide in Christ alone. Prior to the cross the Gentiles were considered “separate from Christ” and “having no hope and without God in the world,” but now through the cross are brought near by His blood.

Paul presented to the Galatians the spiritual application of the cross to himself, and the life he now lives based on it. Very different from that which was his life under the Law prior to the cross:

GAL 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live (i.e., this side of the cross) in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”

Fiat, if the cross has not been a pivotal point in your life like it was for Paul (and mine), then it could be possible that you have not yet come to the cross. I’m just saying it’s possible.

Have you ever read John Bunyan’s book, “Pilgrims’ Progress?” The cross is only the beginning of a faith walk for the true believer. But still his walk by faith is ALWAYS in sight of the cross, knowing and rejoicing, daily, that what was laid there on the Substitute can never be laid back on the sinner (now “saint”).

Blessings,
Bene

Bene:

A second fatal mistake you make, in addition to not knowing what faith means, is that you limit the cross spatially. We as Catholics know differently. My guess is that you believe that man cannot be righteous under the law, but are you quite certain that conclusion jives with scripture? Have you read your Bible? If the graces of the cross are spatially limited as you suggest (pre-cross/post-cross), then I think you are going to have a problem twisting your tortured theology with those who were righteous during the time of the law.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[Fiat]

bene7:

I never said that seeking to imitate Christ has nothing to do with “salvation.” It has everything to do with it. But seeking to imitate Christ is only for those who ARE saved, not for those who are seeking to “get saved”. It is not by the life of Christ (His earthly life) that anyone is saved, it’s by His death. He didn’t come to live the life that all of us should live (none of us can), He came to die the death that none of us could die (the Just for the unjust)- so that all who believe in Him might LIVE (eternally).

What do you think Paul meant by:

GAL 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."Faith alone, I think so. Even after one has been saved. “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Blessings,
Bene

Bene:

I did not intend for my reference to the passage regarding our command to imitate Christ to be a commentary on salvation. It was to show you how bizarre I think the idea is that Christ’s ministry prior to the cross is not meant for our “dispensation.”

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[Philthy]

bene7:

Problem is Philthy, the argument is in the context of how Christians are forgiven of their sins.

That is neither a problem nor an explanation.

bene7:

Must we ask God to be forgiven, or ARE we declared forgiven via the sacrifice of His Son?

Why must it be one or the other? I say that asking forgiveness is a part of the faith which applies the sacrifice of His Son to us. That would make the answer to your question, “both”.
That was not an explanation, either, BTW.

bene7:

So far not one Catholic on this thread believes we’re declared forgiven by God through the cross.

It makes you feel better to believe such nonsense, eh? Is that what keeps you going? Has anyone denied it? It would appear to me that you are using your sloppy terminology again - capable of meaning at least 5 separate concepts - and expecting everyone to understand what you what you mean by it. It could just be me, though.

bene7:

In fact, they vehemently fight/argue against it, even though both Paul and Peter proclaim it so.

I haven’t seen that. I only hear you whining about it.

bene7:

So, you’re just another one added to the count. What can I say?
Blessings,
Bene

You may say what you wish but it is inaccurate and carries no more weight than the hot air escaping from your mouth as you do so. You have no more authority than anyone else and although you have some fine insights to offer, your judgements, ultimately, lack relevence. No biggie, Im in the same boat…

Peace,

Phil

 

[josephdavid]

all4one:

This is illustrated very clearly in Acts 18:24 through 19:6. Baptism is a necessary act that WE do (by His leading) to show we choose the Lord by our own free will, but the Spirit of Regeneration comes as He wills. Baptising a child is simply a pacifier for the parents. Until one consents to the Faith by God’s grace everything else is compulsion and law. It is a spiritual event and as such is impossible for the recipient to not have consent. Thanks, Al

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.